Does anyone else loathe the Aiel?

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

The fact that they do not have a nobility feels right. Each leader has to prove himself worthy before he or she can lead anything.

I see the Wise Ones as the Aiel oligarchy - they decide who joins them in the ruling class.  I disapprove of the Wise Ones because, despite their stranglehold on politics, they have been unable to end thousands of years of internal war.  In fact, they have deliberately bred a culture of violence and intolerance.  They are also responsible for the "original sin complex" in Aiel culture.

 

Mangin understood his punishment.  He did what he felt like he needed to do, and accepted the consequences.  It's like that "take what you want, and pay for it" people are always talking about.

Mangin thinks he did the right thing.  He thinks the situation is funny.  He doesn't understand - he thinks he has an obligation to Rand for what he did:

“No,” Mangin said. “He was drinking, and showing off what he should not have had. I see your eyes, Rand al’Thor.” He grinned suddenly. “It is a puzzle. I was right to kill him, but now I have toh to you.”

His whole attitude is so twisted it makes me cringe.

[Mr Ares]

I mean, how the hell can a bunch of nomads with crappy equipment, no armour, no cavalry and no cities defeat the wetland nations?

Their equipment isn't that bad, cavalry can be beaten, neither cities nor fixed abodes are necessary to be able to destroy civilisations. Even armour isn't a necessity.

 

What would be the Aiel's answer to archers?

Shoot back.

if you get shot at under those circumstances you are going to die.

No, if you get hit you might die. There is a world of difference between getting shot at and getting hit. Getting hit hurts a lot more, for one. Even then, it's survivable. I'm still here, aren't I?

 

Not fielding cavalry is another massive disadvantage, that is an entire arm of your military that you just don't have.

And just don't need.

You only have to look at our history to see that no matter how good your infantry is, you'll get your ass handed to you if your enemy fields cavalry and you don't.

You only need to look at our history to find any number of examples of cavalry being slaughtered. By infantry. Cavalry can be beaten, and Aiel know how to beat them. The Battle of Taginae saw cavalry slaughtered by infantry. In fact, the age of cavalry ended a long time ago. Right equipment, right tactics, cavalry lose. They're weak against infantry squares, for example.

 

I can't think of ever hearing where guierrilla tactics didn't work.

The Boer's lost the Second Boer War, and they used guerilla tactics. We used concentration camps and scorched earth.

 

Simply put, the Aiel are possessed of good equipment, good tactics, good soldiers, good leadership. With all that, it is quite possible to sweep all before you. Especially when your opponents tend not to have large standing armies.

 

Just shoot them. What are they going to do?

Shoot back. Keep coming.

 

Or alternatively have some close order heavy infantry with proper equipment take the charge.

Of course, that's never been tried. The Aiel do know how to deal with heavy infantry.

Or just counter charge with some cavalry and mow them down.

Despite Weiramon's insistence to the contrary, Aiel can and do stand up to cavalry charges. That wouldn't work.

 

I'm saying it completely unbelievable that people with rubbish equipment, no armour, no cavalry, no knowledge of large scale warfare and only one kind of solider could smackdown all the wetland nations that have proper militaries without breaking a sweat.

I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about. They don't have rubbish equipment, for one thing. If the Wetlanders had the same advantages as the Aiel, in terms of leadership, quality of soldiers (not just peasant levies, trained professionals), then they could beat them. They don't. So beating an army of trained professionals who are well led is a lot harder.

[Hybrid]

So use crossbows. Any peasant given 15 minutes instruction can be proficient with a crossbow, that is why it was popular in Europe despite being clearly inferior to good bows.

As for crossbows... did you even wonder that no one bothered using mass crossbowmen before Mat?  It's the (lack of) speed of reloading.  Mat used crossbows because he had to build a well-trained fighting force from volunteers fast for TG.  He had no time to train them to be archers.  The new crank helped a lot too.  The wetlander nations never had any of these advantages.  They did not expect the Aiel attack.

 

Also, as I keep pointing out the Aiel were the invaders. You cant wait for the enemy to come to you, that defeats the whole point of an invasion. The Aiel crossed the Dragonwall to kill Laman. What exactly did they plan on doing when the Cairhienin put an army in between them and Cairhien? How would they get past it?

If the Cairhienin just sit there, the Aiel can use hit-and-run tactics to whittle them down and lower their morale.  Or they can just stand back at shower them with arrows.  As for a siege, we already saw that the Aiel did not just walk all over Cairhien and be done with it.  Remember TFOH?  The Shaido had a pretty tough time with Cairhien.  But they would have won in the end.  Plus, Janduin had 4 clans with him.

 

And yes, in a siege, you can wait for the enemy to come to you.  You can sit back, cut off their supply lines, and wait for them to slowly starve to death.

 

However you look at it not using cavalry is a massivedisadvantage, not having armour is a massive disadvantage.

It all depends on the conditions.  That is my point.  And the Aiel are certainly very good at using the conditions to my advantage.  There are plenty of scenarios where cavalry would be rendered ineffective.  There are plenty of scenarios where heavy armor would be rendered ineffective.

 

Not fighting in close order is a massive disadvantage.

Again, situational.  No wetlander army has really used a phalanx formation with absolute discipline to the soldiers.  It's also pretty clear that the pikemen are mostly conscripts.

 

Even not using swords is a massive disadvantage, if you don't fight in a rigid formation spears are unwieldy and ineffective against swords.

You forgot that the Aiel spears are not the same as pikes.  From their description, they are just as maneuverable as swords are, plus with added reach.  If you have been trained in the use of the weapon from a young age, you will assuredly be very dangerous with it.

 

And if Aiel ever formed a rigid formation they could be easily cut down by simply shooting them as they don't have proper shields and wear pajamas into battle, as I pointed out before.

Which is why they don't form rigid formations.  They use loose, adaptable tactics whereas the wetlanders stick to the same plan over and over again.  Cavalry charge, meet the charge with pikes, etc.

 

Jordan constantly tells us the Aiel didn't even consider it a war, he always makes it clear that they simply annihilated everything sent against them, hands down, easily, no problem.

The point of that quote wasn't that the Aiel annihilated their enemies, it was that from their point of view all they wanted to do was kill Laman.

[Miltiades]

I mean, how the hell can a bunch of nomads with crappy equipment, no armour, no cavalry and no cities defeat the wetland nations?

Their equipment isn't that bad, cavalry can be beaten, neither cities nor fixed abodes are necessary to be able to destroy civilisations. Even armour isn't a necessity.

 

What would be the Aiel's answer to archers?

Shoot back.

if you get shot at under those circumstances you are going to die.

No, if you get hit you might die. There is a world of difference between getting shot at and getting hit. Getting hit hurts a lot more, for one. Even then, it's survivable. I'm still here, aren't I?

 

Not fielding cavalry is another massive disadvantage, that is an entire arm of your military that you just don't have.

And just don't need.

You only have to look at our history to see that no matter how good your infantry is, you'll get your ass handed to you if your enemy fields cavalry and you don't.

You only need to look at our history to find any number of examples of cavalry being slaughtered. By infantry. Cavalry can be beaten, and Aiel know how to beat them. The Battle of Taginae saw cavalry slaughtered by infantry. In fact, the age of cavalry ended a long time ago. Right equipment, right tactics, cavalry lose. They're weak against infantry squares, for example.

 

I can't think of ever hearing where guierrilla tactics didn't work.

The Boer's lost the Second Boer War, and they used guerilla tactics. We used concentration camps and scorched earth.

 

Simply put, the Aiel are possessed of good equipment, good tactics, good soldiers, good leadership. With all that, it is quite possible to sweep all before you. Especially when your opponents tend not to have large standing armies.

 

Just shoot them. What are they going to do?

Shoot back. Keep coming.

 

Or alternatively have some close order heavy infantry with proper equipment take the charge.

Of course, that's never been tried. The Aiel do know how to deal with heavy infantry.

Or just counter charge with some cavalry and mow them down.

Despite Weiramon's insistence to the contrary, Aiel can and do stand up to cavalry charges. That wouldn't work.

 

I'm saying it completely unbelievable that people with rubbish equipment, no armour, no cavalry, no knowledge of large scale warfare and only one kind of solider could smackdown all the wetland nations that have proper militaries without breaking a sweat.

I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about. They don't have rubbish equipment, for one thing. If the Wetlanders had the same advantages as the Aiel, in terms of leadership, quality of soldiers (not just peasant levies, trained professionals), then they could beat them. They don't. So beating an army of trained professionals who are well led is a lot harder.

 

I don't know what I'm talking about? Well let's see. The Aiel DO have rubbish equipment, that is a fact, no matter how much you all protest. They use simple animal skin bucklers, wooden spears and wear pajamas. Their equipment sucks. Compare that to the Children of the light who have mail and sometimes plate armour, horses with saddles and stirrups, helmets (which after a shield is the most important piece of protection for melee infantry) swords, lances and probably proper body shields though off the top of my head I can't remember shields really being mentioned a whole lot.

 

The other wetlanders will no doubt have similar equipment to them.

 

You can't just brush aside all the weaknesses in the Aiel military. Dont need cavalry? Yes it is possible with planning and a stupid opponent to doesnt realize what an enormous advantage he has to overcome a deficiency in cavalry but for every battle you can name where that happened there are 10 or 20 or 50 even where the probable thing happened and the force without cavalry got smashed to pieces. That's what Phillip II did to the Greeks anyway. Yes, armour isnt a necessity, it just helps a lot.

 

You can't rely on your enemy not hitting you to counter archers. The fact remains that with such poor protection being shot at would be devastating.

 

I know Aiel DO stand up to cavalry charges, my point is that this is completely unrealistic. Loosely formed light infantry do not stand up to cavalry charges, they get demolished.

 

 

Lastly, the Aiel are not professional soliders. They are a force of individually talented warriors. They are not a standing professional army, and you never actually see them train. They just fight all the time, that is why they are good. I can accept that that is good for skirmishing over scarce resources in a desert, but in a pitched battle your going to be slaughtered if you show up with a horde of light infantry with inferior equipment.

 

In a proper battle, it comes down far more to things like the cohesion and weight (which the Aiel would lack wearing pajamas) of your formations rather than down to how skilled each of your men is.

[Hybrid]

In a proper battle, it comes down far more to things like the cohesion and weight (which the Aiel would lack wearing pajamas) of your formations rather than down to how skilled each of your men is.

This is why the Cairhienin, Tairen, etc. suck at warfare.  They focus on one aspect rather than taking into account every possible factor.

 

Also, define "proper battle."

[Barmacral]

The equipment of choice not being your preference does not make it rubbish. Aiel equipment that they use IS well made, if it wasn't, then it would be rubbish.

 

So you are wrong in saying rubbish, saying it is a poor choice would be far more accurate.

[Miltiades]

In a proper battle, it comes down far more to things like the cohesion and weight (which the Aiel would lack wearing pajamas) of your formations rather than down to how skilled each of your men is.

This is why the Cairhienin, Tairen, etc. suck at warfare.  They focus on one aspect rather than taking into account every possible factor.

 

Also, define "proper battle."

 

Well, everyone seems to be making out that the Aiel win because they use ambushes and guerrilla tactics and stealth and whatnot. But never is this explicitly stated, and even when this is obviously not the case, the Aiel still crush everything. Look at Gaul and the whitecloaks.

 

In Randland, a battle between a wetlander army and Aiel is basically just a larger version of the fight between Gaul and those whitecloaks. They have all the advantages, yet he annihilates them without breaking a sweat just because he's Aiel and Jordan says the Aiel are invincible.

 

So by proper battle I mean a large pitched battle where two armies face each other at the start of the day and one of them is driven from the field by the end of it. Essentially anything you could call ''the battle of X''.

[Miltiades]

The equipment of choice not being your preference does not make it rubbish. Aiel equipment that they use IS well made, if it wasn't, then it would be rubbish.

 

So you are wrong in saying rubbish, saying it is a poor choice would be far more accurate.

 

Oh no doubt it's well made. It is just well made from simpler and inferior materials.

 

Plus they are completely unarmoured, not even a helmet for god's sake. Their shields would be of very little use against anything you would face on a battlefield. It would be ineffective against massed missile fire, ineffective in a tight infantry engagement and ineffective against a lance point.

 

Infantry with proper body shields in close formation would just bash you aside and trample you underfoot, no matter how good you are with a spear.

[elmis]

The problem I have with the Aiel is that in the first few books, or rather in all the books, it seems like all the Aiel are nigh on Blademaster good with their spears. They live in a desert, where people will fight and bleed for the smallest creek, yet they still have enough iron and wood, to make 3 spears, 20-30 arrows, hornbows (unless these are made from horn) and all that. Do they have mines in the desert, where they get all this iron?

 

I don't know about much about ancient warfare, or ancient cultures, but it seems to me that the waste has to be pretty non barren, to sustain a fighting force of say 50 000 x clans. And most of these are warriors, not smiths, or sheep herders or whatever. I would think that people placed in such harsh conditions would focus more about gathering supplies (water, tending sheep, ect) than waste calories and energy on constant training (which is required to be on par with a Blademaster).

 

I agree with Miltiades about the Perrin/Gaul thing - had it been a one off, where Gaul is hailed as one of the great fighters in all of the Waste maybe, but he just seems like your run-of-the-mill Aiel to me. Think about the Stone of Tear.

 

We have one of the really, really great castles in the wetlands, which obviously holds a garrison of elite soldiers (people who actually train at fighting each day), with superior armor, and so forth, and a hundred and fifty odd Aiel take the castle. Nobody has said anything about the number of Defenders, but I should think, as the Stone is basically their barracks they would number in the thousands. How do you defeat 10-1 odds - where the guys that have 10 are in chainmail, or perhaps plate, and you're wearing cotton? They could all just throw down their swords and sit on you. The weight alone would kill you. 

 

Then again, it's fantasy. If RJ wants the Aiel to be super badass, then they're super badass. I have more of a problem with the Asha'man whom after 2-3-4 weeks of training all but destory 40 000 Shaido. We all know the limits Moiraine, a channeler of 20 (+10?) years have against Trollocks and Myrdraal. Why didn't the back row Shaido just take up their bows and pluck the Asha'man standing there making the front row Aiel into minced meat - if they are so good at "non standard combat"?

[Fjong]

The Aiel have a warrior culture where everyone trains from birth in fighting, kinda like the spartans someone mentioned earlier. This would make them very proffecient fighters. Please also remember that they can run a horse tired. They also have no fear at all for death, they call it "waking from the dream". This makes them very capable fighters.

 

Their weapons are made of iron like the wetlands (they are of a diffrent style, with their short spears instead of swords and such), the weapons are made by proper smiths, remember it gives a large amount of dishonor to kill smiths, children and women who isn't wedded to the spear.

They don't use armor, which makes them way more vulnerable when hit, but on the other hand gives them a way better mobility. The buckler can easily block a sword so they are not totally open to hits.

 

Also keep in mind that the Aiel have an reputation as formidable fighters which demoarlises the opponents even before the combat starts.

 

So all in all i don't find the unrealistic badass

[Muad Cheade]

As for Gaul, I do think he is one of the more exceptional fighters of the Aiel. Also, he is being groomed towards becoming a clan chief and if you recall the current chief's prowess in battle, you will understand why. I'm hazy on the chapter where Perrin freed Gaul but did the actual chapter say Gaul fought with his fists? If so, then I doubt the Whitecloaks were all killed. It's not a suspension of belief to believe that two very agile, exceptional warriors could defeat 10 cavalrymen on foot(the Whitecloaks are an all cavalry force) weighed down by armor.

 

As for how the Aiel Waste can provide enough nourishment to arm hundreds of thousands of people and provide food for the entire Aiel Nation, you must remember that they have lived there for nearly 3,000 years so they have developed ways. I remember one Aielman (possibly Aviendha) said that they are not nearly as wasteful as wetlanders. They find uses for everything. Also except for the past 20 years they traded consistently with the Cairhienin and still trade with the Sharans which explains how they get the iron for weapons. I'm pretty sure there are also mines in the Aiel according to Aviendha. I'll try to find the passage.

 

You must remember that the Aiel's clothes are created to give them absoulute mobility which augments their natural athletic build and ability to run long distances. Their cadinsor also camouflages very well which is a prime advantage in warfare.

 

You keep saying, Militades, that their weaponry and clothing is infrear and are pajama clothes." One example I previously gave was the Zulus who the Aiel are partially based on. They defeated the British Empire wearing only "loincloths" for lack of a better word and wielding large shields and spears while the British had rifles. They used the same tactics as the Aiel. That is engaging from the front while sending large groups to attack the flanks. Very effective and deadly which is why both the Zulus and the Aiel were victorious. Also, interesting is that the Aiel could in fact run as fast and as far as the Zulus.

 

However, an example that fits better into the context of the Aiel defeating the Wetlanders during the Aiel War, is that of Khalid ibn Walid. He was one of the greatest military commanders of all time. One of Muhammad's (the creator of the religion of Islam) close friends and his personal general, he defeated two of the most powerful military forces, that of the Persian Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. His armies consisted of nothing more than the desert nomads that inhabited the Saudi Arabia peninsula. He was never defeated yet in every battle he was always outnumbered. It proves that even with "poor clothing" and "inferior weapons," great generalship, mobility, and hardy, courageous warriors can win battles. There are countless more examples.

 

Once again, cavalry is not the end all of warfare. The Aiel can run as fast as horses and eventually farther. That pretty much erases the need for cavalry and makes them more deadly due to the fact that a group of pikemen can defeat a cavalry charge while the same group would be eviscerated by charging Aiel since pikes are not effective up close. That is part of the reason they won. Their tactics and methodology were not the same as the Westlanders were used to. Also, as I pointed out. The majority of troops especially the infantry in the Aiel War were conscripts which is in stark contrast to the Aiel Warriors.

[Miltiades]

As for Gaul, I do think he is one of the more exceptional fighters of the Aiel. Also, he is being groomed towards becoming a clan chief and if you recall the current chief's prowess in battle, you will understand why. I'm hazy on the chapter where Perrin freed Gaul but did the actual chapter say Gaul fought with his fists? If so, then I doubt the Whitecloaks were all killed. It's not a suspension of belief to believe that two very agile, exceptional warriors could defeat 10 cavalrymen on foot(the Whitecloaks are an all cavalry force) weighed down by armor.

 

As for how the Aiel Waste can provide enough nourishment to arm hundreds of thousands of people and provide food for the entire Aiel Nation, you must remember that they have lived there for nearly 3,000 years so they have developed ways. I remember one Aielman (possibly Aviendha) said that they are not nearly as wasteful as wetlanders. They find uses for everything. Also except for the past 20 years they traded consistently with the Cairhienin and still trade with the Sharans which explains how they get the iron for weapons. I'm pretty sure there are also mines in the Aiel according to Aviendha. I'll try to find the passage.

 

You must remember that the Aiel's clothes are created to give them absoulute mobility which augments their natural athletic build and ability to run long distances. Their cadinsor also camouflages very well which is a prime advantage in warfare.

 

You keep saying, Militades, that their weaponry and clothing is infrear and are pajama clothes." One example I previously gave was the Zulus who the Aiel are partially based on. They defeated the British Empire wearing only "loincloths" for lack of a better word and wielding large shields and spears while the British had rifles. They used the same tactics as the Aiel. That is engaging from the front while sending large groups to attack the flanks. Very effective and deadly which is why both the Zulus and the Aiel were victorious. Also, interesting is that the Aiel could in fact run as fast and as far as the Zulus.

 

However, an example that fits better into the context of the Aiel defeating the Wetlanders during the Aiel War, is that of Khalid ibn Walid. He was one of the greatest military commanders of all time. One of Muhammad's (the creator of the religion of Islam) close friends and his personal general, he defeated two of the most powerful military forces, that of the Persian Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire. His armies consisted of nothing more than the desert nomads that inhabited the Saudi Arabia peninsula. He was never defeated yet in every battle he was always outnumbered. It proves that even with "poor clothing" and "inferior weapons," great generalship, mobility, and hardy, courageous warriors can win battles. There are countless more examples.

 

Once again, cavalry is not the end all of warfare. The Aiel can run as fast as horses and eventually farther. That pretty much erases the need for cavalry and makes them more deadly due to the fact that a group of pikemen can defeat a cavalry charge while the same group would be eviscerated by charging Aiel since pikes are not effective up close. That is part of the reason they won. Their tactics and methodology were not the same as the Westlanders were used to. Also, as I pointed out. The majority of troops especially the infantry in the Aiel War were conscripts which is in stark contrast to the Aiel Warriors.

 

But human beings cant run faster than horses. It is simply impossible. And I am fairly sure that Jordan only ever says that they can outrun horses over long distances. A human being may be physically fitter than a horse, I suppose that just might be possible. But if we're accepting that Aiel run faster than horses then this entire debate is moot because they clearly aren't human beings then.

 

The Zulu's defeated the British by massively overwhelming numerical superiority. They just had way, way too many men. The rebellion was put down eventually when the British actually got a decent number of troops into the theater.

 

I remember the part you're talking about as for the Aiel tactics. Lan says they travel in a column split up into four parts. The first attacks the front while the next two go against the flanks and the last waits to engage where the enemy is weakest. A good strategy assuming a quarter of your army can hold the line against all of theirs. If that is the case you're going to win no matter what you do.

 

I dont actually know about those desert nomads, but my guess would be they fielded a lot of mounted archers. Mounted archers have always been incredibly difficult to deal with if you don't bring a counter to the field, as the Romans learned at Carrae. Still, the Aiel dont use horses so it's a moot point.

 

 

As someone else said, maintaining a level of fitness in which you could outrun a horse would require a superabundance of nourishment, something the waste doesnt have. But I'm even willing to ignore that. It's just that the Aiel always seem to win just by virtue of them being Aiel.

[Builder]

I'm not sure if humans can run faster than horses but humans definitely can run longer than horses. We were built to run. I guess we had to run since we have weak muscles and an oversized brain :P

[Hybrid]

The problem I have with the Aiel is that in the first few books, or rather in all the books, it seems like all the Aiel are nigh on Blademaster good with their spears.

If all the wetlanders devoted their lives to fighting, maybe there would be more Blademasters or at least highly competent soldiers.  Look at our society - if we all physically conditioned like professional athletes, more of us would be at that level of endurance and skill.  But we don't because we devote our lives to other tasks.

 

They live in a desert, where people will fight and bleed for the smallest creek, yet they still have enough iron and wood, to make 3 spears, 20-30 arrows, hornbows (unless these are made from horn) and all that. Do they have mines in the desert, where they get all this iron?

The Borderlanders live in a pretty crappy environment, yet they still are able to get enough resources and develop a significant fighting culture.  As for mines, they probably have mines in the mountains.  Which is, you know, where mines are generally found.  Or they could trade as well.

 

We have one of the really, really great castles in the wetlands, which obviously holds a garrison of elite soldiers (people who actually train at fighting each day), with superior armor, and so forth, and a hundred and fifty odd Aiel take the castle. Nobody has said anything about the number of Defenders, but I should think, as the Stone is basically their barracks they would number in the thousands.

The Aiel proved their ability to think outside the box.  The wetlander way would have been to march up to the gates and bang on them until they fell down.  The Aiel got into the castle by stealth, at night, then proceeded to attack the Defenders when they least expected it.  Remember how Mat was fighting people who didn't even have a shirt on?

 

Why didn't the back row Shaido just take up their bows and pluck the Asha'man standing there making the front row Aiel into minced meat - if they are so good at "non standard combat"?

Because the Asha'man had a barrier of air.  I'd like to see the Aiel arrows that can go through that.

[Hybrid]

Well, everyone seems to be making out that the Aiel win because they use ambushes and guerrilla tactics and stealth and whatnot.

An ambush doesn't count as a proper battle?

 

So by proper battle I mean a large pitched battle where two armies face each other at the start of the day and one of them is driven from the field by the end of it. Essentially anything you could call ''the battle of X''.

Giving your enemy time to establish his lines is a ridiculous tactic and a great way to lose a battle.  There are more ways to wage warfare than lining up across from each other and blasting away until someone goes home.

[Serenla]

I am not really sure how i feel about the Aiel.  They have good and bad qualities.  They are honest and honorable and hard working and so on, but they are also crazy.  They offer to let people kill and or beat them when they make a mistake.  How weird is that?

 

However i find their victories over wetlanders believable.  In the Aiel war, they had the numbers and the element of surprise on their side.  Throughout the books, there are comments made about the size of the armies and how compared to what Rand gathers armies are small.  The 4 clans coming out of the waste would have been huge compared to what Cairhien could come up with.  And the amount of damage that they could have done before Cairhien even realized they were coming would have taken care of the trained soldiers before Cairhien could mount any defense.  When this is added to the fact that the nations didn't unite to fight them right off and concentrate their efforts, it makes since that the wetlanders had their butts handed to them.

 

As far as Gaul and the Children, it seems to me that the Children aren't really all that skilled at fighting people who fight back.  They obviously used to win battles because of Nial's banner collection, but from what we've seen of them they mostly go around and threaten and intimidate people who can't fight back.  So it seems pretty believable that Gaul could kick their overconfident butts before they really have a chance to react. 

[Epic]

Fighting Aiel isn't even fair.  They're a race of superhumans.  Every single on of them is either six foot tall+ weighing 200 lbs. of muscle if they're guys or 150 lb.s if they're girls.  The guys that are shorter than 6 ft. are usually only just under it and weigh at least the same 200+ lbs. of muscle.  They don't eat a huge amount of meat nor do they have gyms or creatine or muslce milk or anything like that.  Its just stupid.  Also, everyone's going on and on about those poor, poor, wetlander infantry armed only with a pike.  The pike was the height of warfare before the advent of gunpower(I realize the Swiss weren't "untrained" militia, but a pike isn't all that complicated to learn) and plowed through both infantry and cavalry.

 

Unfortunately, the world of the WoT is very contrived.  Cavalry are still considered the creme de la creme, but only wear breastplates and don't use lances(excluding Shienarans)?  Pikeman can mess up anything that doesn't have guns, but they're still undeveloped and scoffed at, wtf?  In all reality, a charge of heavy cavalry against Aiel would be hugely sucessful, the cavalry would have way better reach with their lances and their heavy armor would turn the Aiel arrows and spear thrusts.

 

Also, you can't beat up someone in heavy armor(Gaul v. WC), you'll break your hands trying to and then most likely die when a mailed fist connects with your face.

 

Guerilla tactics only work in the jungle, like Vietnam.  During the peninsular war, the Spanish trid it, but it was the English bailout that made the French leave.  The Zulus got their asses handed to them.  Their only real major victory was Islandlwana (can you really call it winning when it takes several thousand of your guys to kill a hundred of their's and you still lose just as many if not more?).  They speak English in South Africa, not Zulu.  The Spartans were not the warriors of three hundred and I hate the misconception people have about them after seeing the movie.  They lost to both Macedonion cavalry and Theban phalanxes.  The Scots only beat the English when the King was an idiot.  The French won the Hundred Years War when they stopped being idiots. 

 

CAVALRY WINS!!!!  CAVALRY WINS!!!!  CAVALRY WINS!!!!   

[Owners.Inc]

 

Fighting Aiel isn't even fair.  They're a race of superhumans.  Every single on of them is either six foot tall+ weighing 200 lbs. of muscle if they're guys or 150 lb.s if they're girls.  The guys that are shorter than 6 ft. are usually only just under it and weigh at least the same 200+ lbs. of muscle.  They don't eat a huge amount of meat nor do they have gyms or creatine or muslce milk or anything like that.  Its just stupid.  Also, everyone's going on and on about those poor, poor, wetlander infantry armed only with a pike.  The pike was the height of warfare before the advent of gunpower(I realize the Swiss weren't "untrained" militia, but a pike isn't all that complicated to learn) and plowed through both infantry and cavalry.

 

 

It still took time for the cavalry to die down after the pikes came through. Most of the nobles still think that pikes suck and as you say "CAVALRY WINS" but its seen in real life at least that that's not true. AS for the Aiel physique, I remember them raising cattle and sheep, so I'm sure they do eat meat regularly and the get their workout by running like maniacs and fighting each other. Seems a little bit stretched that they're all muscled but not beyond the limits of imagination. And from a genetic standpoint at least, its possible that they are above average in height, just like the Cairhein folk are below average.

 

Unfortunately, the world of the WoT is very contrived.  Cavalry are still considered the creme de la creme, but only wear breastplates and don't use lances(excluding Shienarans)?  Pikeman can mess up anything that doesn't have guns, but they're still undeveloped and scoffed at, wtf?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that how things used to be in real life too? Doesn't sound too contrived - only nobles would have the money to afford stables and stuff so they'd be the ones who were on the horses where as the pikes and archers would be the commoners who get mowed down.

 

Also, you can't beat up someone in heavy armor(Gaul v. WC), you'll break your hands trying to and then most likely die when a mailed fist connects with your face.

 

Agreed, this was a little drastic, but I explained it away by thinking that WC would probably not fight Gaul with their full armor on. Would you and your buddies fight a single unarmed and unarmored guy with your full armor on? Looks a bit pathetic really. Or maybe it was a case of the armor slowing them down? I think you have a point here, but again I don't think its a big deal to most readers. AS a lot of people have mentioned, Perrin pulls a stunt like this soon after and its seems believable. Its also possible that the WC aren't used to fighting much. They just go wherever and try to bully their way around, no real all out fighting. Maybe a shove here or a punch there but no full-out fight-for-your-life kinda thing.

[elmis]

Why didn't the back row Shaido just take up their bows and pluck the Asha'man standing there making the front row Aiel into minced meat - if they are so good at "non standard combat"?

 

Because the Asha'man had a barrier of air.  I'd like to see the Aiel arrows that can go through that.

 

I'm fairly certain that they opened the wall of air two spans or something like that, before they started the meat grinder. Thirthy Asha'man, fourthy thousand Aiel. You'd think they'd hit home with some spears or arrows.

[Builder]

Oh yeah, the Middle East is just completely covered with jungle so the Taliban and Al Qaida have many places to hide! Excuse me but a jungle isn't necessary to use guerrilla tactics.

[Braus]

First of all, remember the fighting before Carhien and the fighting we get from Lans POV in one of the early chapters of "New Spring". This isnt two big armies, standing on one side of the field each. I doubt that kind of fighting ever occurr except between arrogant, stupid and traditional noblesmen. Anyway, what i mean is that aiel doesnt seem to run around in great numbers, sure a few thousands, but its never really that many more. Remember Couladins force was like 8k.

Also we have NEVER really seen any fighting with the Aiel in the books, or heard, where they travel in one huge group. We could maybe have had one, with the army Rand collected on the fields before Illidan, but that never happened.

 

Aiel are stealthy if they want and if there is possibilities to be.

Aiel are bowmen if needed(they all carry a bow)

Aiel got a great physic, not saying they are all like our present sport stars, but have you ever heard about a fat Aiel? As an example, like the one made about the stone of tear before. Do you think normal people could redo the assult that they did? climbing into the stone of tear, its just a measure of fit they really are. They pretty much do what we nowadays call "training"(like running, or walking long, or practising fighting if they are warriors(like Rhuarc does with Rand all the time) everyday, many times. Without really calling it training.

Say compare someone who has practised climbing for 4 years, with someone who barely ever have, how huge will the difference be? Or say running far etc.

Aiel is a oneman army, im not saying they are that good, but that they are thinking from another perspective. Ji e toh, clan responsibilities, community etc. All of them arent intelligent or good leaders etc im sure, but they all seem to be thinking independent if needed. Proberly the lack of nobles etc have created this, the lack of unquestionable leadership. Proberly most of the Aiel soldiers could take their commanders role, at least to make their own decisions.

They are like one of those Schwiezic Knifes. And since they dont fight in great great numbers, on open field, standing shoulder to shoulder, they can adapt.

 

 

Dont think they are inhuman, in anything but the sheer number of proffessional fighters they have, dont think this have anything to do with "race" or anything. And the part about blacksmiths etc taking up spears and fighting along side their warriors if needed. I dont compare that with a farmer taking up a pitchfork really. I would proberly rather compare that with the expertise of someone who been a soldier for a year or 2, at least thats my impression... The battle culture is so big, that its porberly impossible to not pick up abit of weapon/battle knowledge.

If 500 trained wetlander soldiers and 500 trained aiel warriors(all aiel warriors are very good trained, compared to the wetlands armies, where most soldiers arent trained very good at all) would face each other on some kind of battleroyal on a isolated island, im sure it could go either way.

 

One last thing, i think what makes it possible for Aiel to have so many, and so good warriors, is because of the ji e toh system, where they have Gaishain. Having a servant for 1 year and a day, who you only have to feed, saves up alot of time that maybe else would go to something else(not that Aiel seems to be training all the time. But they proberly Train/relax) To make a comparison between our own history and that. Just look at the karolines from Sweden. The idea there was that the soldiers lived in houses around the country, and each soldier had a group of farmers who(apart of taxes i guess or something) had the responsibility to feed him. One of the reason why a small nation like Sweden managed to beat alot lot bigger nations back in those days.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_XII#Early_campaigns

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Just for fun I did the Sue test for the Aiel and got a 54.

 

Some of the questions fit perfectly:

If/when your character discovers his/her past, will he/she not like it?

Does your character angst about something that he/she did in the past?

[Miltiades]

Fighting Aiel isn't even fair.  They're a race of superhumans.  Every single on of them is either six foot tall+ weighing 200 lbs. of muscle if they're guys or 150 lb.s if they're girls.  The guys that are shorter than 6 ft. are usually only just under it and weigh at least the same 200+ lbs. of muscle.  They don't eat a huge amount of meat nor do they have gyms or creatine or muslce milk or anything like that.  Its just stupid.  Also, everyone's going on and on about those poor, poor, wetlander infantry armed only with a pike.  The pike was the height of warfare before the advent of gunpower(I realize the Swiss weren't "untrained" militia, but a pike isn't all that complicated to learn) and plowed through both infantry and cavalry.

 

Unfortunately, the world of the WoT is very contrived.  Cavalry are still considered the creme de la creme, but only wear breastplates and don't use lances(excluding Shienarans)?  Pikeman can mess up anything that doesn't have guns, but they're still undeveloped and scoffed at, wtf?  In all reality, a charge of heavy cavalry against Aiel would be hugely sucessful, the cavalry would have way better reach with their lances and their heavy armor would turn the Aiel arrows and spear thrusts.

 

Also, you can't beat up someone in heavy armor(Gaul v. WC), you'll break your hands trying to and then most likely die when a mailed fist connects with your face.

 

Guerilla tactics only work in the jungle, like Vietnam.  During the peninsular war, the Spanish trid it, but it was the English bailout that made the French leave.  The Zulus got their asses handed to them.  Their only real major victory was Islandlwana (can you really call it winning when it takes several thousand of your guys to kill a hundred of their's and you still lose just as many if not more?).  They speak English in South Africa, not Zulu.  The Spartans were not the warriors of three hundred and I hate the misconception people have about them after seeing the movie.  They lost to both Macedonion cavalry and Theban phalanxes.  The Scots only beat the English when the King was an idiot.  The French won the Hundred Years War when they stopped being idiots. 

 

CAVALRY WINS!!!!  CAVALRY WINS!!!!  CAVALRY WINS!!!!     

 

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. A race of 6ft+ muscle bound demi-gods who can outrun horses and defeat 10 armoured guys with their bare hands doesnt seem human. That is why I figured that they were a separate species like the Ogier.

 

 

A lot of people don't understand how strong chain mail is. Even with a sword it's actually VERY hard to cut through. Gaul defeating 10 Children of the Light with his bare hands was an almost unbelievable feat for a human and he it's never mentioned that he is any more formidable than your run of the mill Aiel.

 

The references to Spartans annoyed me as well. they had almost the entire southern part of the Greek peninsula enslaved just to feed them so they could spend all their time training and fighting. Plus they lived in Greece which is actually fairly lush. There is no way the Aiel could sustain a population of full time warriors like they have in a desert. It isnt stuff like that that annoys me though, it's when each individual Aiel is basically a Conan. Anyway, as you said even the Spartans got crushed when their opponents fielded good cavalry.

 

 

 

[Thor]

you might not be able to beat up a guy in plate with your fists, but you can sure do it with your feet, which we know the aiel are tremendously skilled with.

 

even if you wear a steel helmet, a kick to the head will still knock you out.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

even if you wear a steel helmet, a kick to the head will still knock you out.

Liar, I just tried this and now my shin is broken...thanks a lot.