Slayer - Tower of Ghenji.

[Ciete]

I've searched the forums, and cannot find a similar thread (I'm sure the mod's will point me in the right direction if I'm wrong though).

 

In The Shadow Rising (sorry @ work, with no books, but dreaming of WoT as nomal!), we find Perrin and Slayer in the wolf dream, with Perrin in hot pursuit. Perrin chases Slayer to the Tower of Ghenji, and he receives his warning from Brigete.

 

We know from reading that the Aeliffin/Eeliffin (sp) are not evil (as the shadow is evil), but is it possible that Slayer received his abilities (Isam/Luc) from the finns?

 

Later in Winters Heart (thanks mb!), we get a POV from Slayer stating something to the effect of "I've received many gifts, but immunity to poison was not one of them."

 

I find it interesting that Slayer may be a product of some kind of "gift" from the finns, but now works for the Shadow.

 

I know there are several thoughts on Slayer's role in the last battle, but how will his abilities (and possible ties to the finn's) play into this? Any thoughts?

 

 

[mb]

Slayer's abilities I take come from the Dark One, not from the Eelfinn/Aelfinn.

 

The passage you mention, that is in Winter's Heart, not in Crossroads of Twilight.

 

Your probably wondering about the entering of the Tower.

I am not sure if Slayer did enter.  Though if he did, he probably knew the trick of making the sign with a bronze knife.

 

[Majsju]

The finns does not have the ability to transmigrate souls.

[mb]

The finns does not have the ability to transmigrate souls.

That statement seems doubtful.  The books do not tell all they are capable of.

They were able to give Mat memories of dead people.  Memories seem to be attached to a person's soul.

 

[Chel Vanin]

The finns does not have the ability to transmigrate souls.

That statement seems doubtful.  The books do not tell all they are capable of.

They were able to give Mat memories of dead people.  Memories seem to be attached to a person's soul.

 

 

Not so, Mat gets his memories from men who also entered the ter' angreal doorway. The Fox Finns sort of feed (at least thats how i understood it) on these memories. They were able to give Mat memories because the Finns recieved those when men came into the Tower of Ghenjei. The transmigrating of souls is another thing altogether.

[Majsju]

The finns does not have the ability to transmigrate souls.

That statement seems doubtful.  The books do not tell all they are capable of.

They were able to give Mat memories of dead people.  Memories seem to be attached to a person's soul.

 

 

Good thing there are other sources of information than the books. Like, uhm...RJ answering questions... ;D

 

Tamyrlin:

The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the power. I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed.

 

RJ: No No to both.

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9916/t/First-dragon-con-report.html

 

So no, there is nothing doubtful about that statement.

 

[Thor]

i don't think slayer entered the tower, he just made it seem as if he did so that he can trick perrin into entering.

[Builder]

Yeah but Perrin didn't enter the tower.I think he just left.

[Mr Ares]

is it possible that Slayer received his abilities (Isam/Luc) from the finns?

No.

[Kaznen]

The finns does not have the ability to transmigrate souls.

That statement seems doubtful.  The books do not tell all they are capable of.

They were able to give Mat memories of dead people.  Memories seem to be attached to a person's soul.

 

 

Not so, Mat gets his memories from men who also entered the ter' angreal doorway. The Fox Finns sort of feed (at least thats how i understood it) on these memories. They were able to give Mat memories because the Finns recieved those when men came into the Tower of Ghenjei. The transmigrating of souls is another thing altogether.

You would have known this, mb, if you had read KoD.

[Yllek]

i don't think slayer entered the tower, he just made it seem as if he did so that he can trick perrin into entering.

 

Slayer had no reason to assume that Perrin had any idea about how to enter the tower.

[bjclinton]

Did i miss something in all of my re-reads? At what point did we find out how to actually enter the tower? from who and how do you actually enter?

[arkinia]

We learn how to enter the tower in KoD when Thom shows Mat the letter after he asks about it like Moiraine says all prophetic style. Mat knows you get in by using a bronze knife some how, Birgitte told him I think, she mentioned it to him previously by chance when they would chat.

[Chel Vanin]

Did i miss something in all of my re-reads? At what point did we find out how to actually enter the tower? from who and how do you actually enter?

We learn how to enter the tower in KoD when Thom shows Mat the letter after he asks about it like Moiraine says all prophetic style. Mat knows you get in by using a bronze knife some how, Birgitte told him I think, she mentioned it to him previously by chance when they would chat.

 

Actually, Olver tells Mat, ironically enough. He remembers a saying from the game "snakes and foxes." Arkinia was correct in saying that you must use a bronze knife however, I believe you have to make the symbol of three triangle fox heads and snakes are involved somehow. Yes the scene is at the end of KoD when Mat finds out Moiraine is alive. If you haven't read all 11 books sorry, probably shouldn't be on forums discussing the books :x

[Thor]

i don't think slayer entered the tower, he just made it seem as if he did so that he can trick perrin into entering.

 

Slayer had no reason to assume that Perrin had any idea about how to enter the tower.

 

slayer almost succesfully fooled perrin into running around the tower 3 times, it's not so hard for slayer to then trick perrin into stabbing the tower with a dagger or something.  perrin has no choice in the matter, until birgitte intervened.

[mb]

Did i miss something in all of my re-reads? At what point did we find out how to actually enter the tower? from who and how do you actually enter?

Knife of Dreams Chapter 10 through Olver who got it from Birgitte.

The way: making a certain sign with a bronze knife.

 

I got this information from the Encyclopaedia site, not from actual reading.

 

[Ciete]

Quote: Reply #14 on: June 16, 2009, 10:25:27 PM » Thor:

"slayer almost succesfully fooled perrin into running around the tower 3 times, it's not so hard for slayer to then trick perrin into stabbing the tower with a dagger or something.  perrin has no choice in the matter, until birgitte intervened."

I'm guess I'm not sold that Slayer did not enter the Tower at all. In the 'Tower of Ghenji" chapter in The Shadow Rising, Hopper tells Perrin that "you would chase evil into evil." And even mentions that "Slayer is not ancient, but his evil is."

 

This would leave me to believe that the wolves (who do not forget anything as long as one wolf is alive), have encountered something like "Slayer" before.

 

I guess w/the Shadow having the knowledge that the current Randland'ers lack, its it too much of a stretch to think the Shadow knows the "rules" of the Finn's, and would use those to their advantage?

 

Slayer's scent (IMO, he is oblivious that Perrin can track him in the dream in that fashion) ends directly at the tower. Unless he stepped out of the dream world, I'd have to say he somehow knows the "rules" of the Finns, and uses them to escape from Perrin.

 

As Perrin is woefully ignorant about the world of dreams, I'm lost on how Slayer intended him to enter (in the dream world) with no knowledge of the Finns, much less how to enter their tower w/the requisite bronze knife.

 

 

[fikkie77]

We don't get to hear how to do that, only indirectly in the rules of the game of snakes and foxes.

 

If I've read correctly, they will have to draw a triangle with a wavy line through it and say: "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind". Something like that, but it sounds strange to me as well.

[Majsju]

RJ borrowed a lot from Irish folklore when creating the finns. They share a lot of similarities with the fairies. In the folklore, fairies are often said to live under hills, and we have two mentions in WOT that connects the finns with hills. The fairies were also sensitive to iron, which was the main reason they were driven underground when humans arrived. They were not fond of fire, and could get entranced by music. Sound familiar? ;D

 

One way for a human to enter the fairies realm, was to find either a hill known to have fairies living underneath it, or certain rocks or trees connected with the fairies, and walk three full laps around it, I do not remember if it was clockwise or counter clockwise.

 

So that Perrins stroll was interrupted just as he had completed two full laps around TOG may not have been an incident.

 

[Ciete]

So the Tower O 'Ghenji 'round-about' might be the way to enter the tower in T'A'R??

 

If (and its still a big IF) Slayer entered, wouldn't he have to do the same? If memory serves, his trail stopped cold at the tower, not running circles around it.

 

Seems plausible that there are different ways to enter the Tower in the "real" world vs. the Dream world, but I'd assume that the way to enter would be consistent for everyone in whatever "world" they tried to enter the Tower.

 

Just my two pesos.....

[Majsju]

The "official" (as in, the way Birgitte told Olver about) way to enter the TOG is to draw the symbol used when starting a game of Snakes & foxes on the tower wall, with a bronze knife. Do that, and a door will open.

 

Which in no way rules out the possibility of there being other ways to enter. Like, walking around the tower three times. Seems a bit odd that Birgitte should violate the rules about Heroes interfering if the only way to enter was a procedure it seemed obvious Perrin did not know about, and would have had extremely small chance of figuring out on his own. Even if she had feared perrin might figure it out, she could have waited until he pulled out a knife and started to point it at the door.

[Ciete]

So I finally took the time to re-read the TOG chapter in Shadow Rising, and it was Hopper that stopped Perrin from completing the third trip around the tower. Then Brigitte stepped in and offered more info.

 

However, after re-reading the chapter, Hopper, Perrin, and Brigitte felt Slayer DID in fact enter the tower.

 

I wonder how he receives Carte blanche access to the world of the Finns??

 

I doubt Slayer has a fine singing voice, although the chances of a lighter in his pocket are pretty slim too. Inquiring minds want to know...

[mb]

Likely Slayer knew the way to enter and did those motions quickly or did them shortly before the Telaranrhiod encounter.

 

[Majsju]

 

However, after re-reading the chapter, Hopper, Perrin, and Brigitte felt Slayer DID in fact enter the tower.

 

 

 

And we all know, that in WOT, what characters think or feel is always correct... ;)

[Ciete]

Alas, all too true Majsju, WAFO I guess.

 

Just remember when the Finns/Slayer connection comes to fruition, you heard it here 1st...(I think) ;D, otherwise I'll serve up a good batch of gilded crow for dinner.