Bashere, darkfriend

[madoc comadrin]

In the prologue of Crossroads of Twilight Bashere says that he agrees to a mans proposal.

 

What proposal, and who is this man.

Logain Ablar maybee?

[Gentled Ben]

What makes you think that it's Logain, and what makes you think that Logain is a darkfriend? Maybe you could develop your idea a bit better...

[Shard]

I think the proposal was from a Seachan delagate to meet with the Daughter of the Nine Moons, a meeting that was set up for what happens in Knife of Dreams.

[Kadere]

It was the agreement to set off with Logain to try and find Rand. They then stop at Cairhien and pick up Loial, and then they all show up together in Tear at Rand's place.

[Shard]

Either way nothing Dark Friend there.

[a pale tanned lover]

Wasn't it discussed in another thread, mainly due to the viewing Min had of something dark around him?

[Bob T Dwarf]

It was the agreement to set off with Logain to try and find Rand. They then stop at Cairhien and pick up Loial, and then they all show up together in Tear at Rand's place.

 

That would be a good premise IF they showed up in Cairhien together.  They don't.  Logain has to cool his heels for about two weeks before Bashere shows up.  It's only once Bashere gets to Cairhien that they join forces to find Rand.

[Kadere]

Rrrrrrrrrrriiiight.... Logain sends a messenger to Bashere, and heads off to Cairhien. Bashere agrees to the message and heads off after Logain to Cairhien. They meet up with Loial and head to Tear.

 

Bashere's not a darkfriend. The message was to go with Logain to find Rand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No one except Tumad was close enough to hear him, but he spoke softly anyway and chose his words cautiously.  Sometimes the price of carelessness was death, too.  "You know where to find the man who came to me yesterday?  Find him, and tell him that I agree, but there will be a few more than we talked about."

 

If  Logain was "the man", and he headed off to Cairhien, how would Tumad know where to find him?

 

Using Cooper's Timeline:

 

Logain was given permission to go recruiting on day 702, and made ready to leave immediately.  Bashere wasn't contacted until day 710 at which point Logain was nearly to Cairhien.  On day 711 Bashere's tent was ransacked, and he sent Tumad off to deliver his acceptance to "the man."  On day 712 Dobraine was attacked and nearly killed, and Logain and his party arrived in Cairhien.  Bashere doesn't get to Cairhien until many days later.  They all don't show up at the Manor until Day 724 having Traveled there from Cairhien in a single day using the Warders as direction and distance finders.

 

 

[Shard]

I think Min's warning about Bashere and Logain wasn't about them being DF's but about them either dying or deciding that serving a Rabid Lion was no longer a feasible idea. I think it's more a warning to Rand's unstable mental state then anything else.

[mb]

Davram Bashere, he currently seems not a darkfriend; but he might become so, possibly through Semirhage.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think Min's warning about Bashere and Logain wasn't about them being DF's but about them either dying or deciding that serving a Rabid Lion was no longer a feasible idea. I think it's more a warning to Rand's unstable mental state then anything else.

 

That's a possibility.

 

But, there's also Egwene's Dream about the man standing at Rand's shoulder with a knife to his throat.  A man that Rand doesn't even notice.  Couple that with Min's viewing of "something Dark" about Bashere, and you begin to get a better focus on who Davram Bashere really is and what cause he really serves.

[Builder]

I think Bob T Dwarf has a point. Not only does he have a point, he also seems a clever guy.

 

I have a suspicion that Davram Bashere is a DF. It's been pointed out before too, and I go by that theory, even though I really like Bashy.

 

I am quite moot at what happened before the mansion attack. Who was there, and how did they get to that mansion, seeing as it is in no-mans land.

[Muad Cheade]

Min's viewing was "And there's something... dark... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies?" (CoT, Ch. 24)

 

The meaning is simple. He's important to Rand. The "turns" seems to imply him returning to Tenobia. Remember he said that Tenobia would likely see his allegiance to Rand as treason and since she's not on Rand's side, she could possibly force him to switch his allegiance back to her.

 

No one except Tumad was close enough to hear him, but he spoke softly anyway and chose his words cautiously.  Sometimes the price of carelessness was death, too.  "You know where to find the man who came to me yesterday?  Find him, and tell him that I agree, but there will be a few more than we talked about."

 

If  Logain was "the man", and he headed off to Cairhien, how would Tumad know where to find him?

 

Using Cooper's Timeline:

 

Logain was given permission to go recruiting on day 702, and made ready to leave immediately.  Bashere wasn't contacted until day 710 at which point Logain was nearly to Cairhien.  On day 711 Bashere's tent was ransacked, and he sent Tumad off to deliver his acceptance to "the man."  On day 712 Dobraine was attacked and nearly killed, and Logain and his party arrived in Cairhien.  Bashere doesn't get to Cairhien until many days later.  They all don't show up at the Manor until Day 724 having Traveled there from Cairhien in a single day using the Warders as direction and distance finders.

 

There are many possible reasons. Logain could have left an Asha'man to relay messages to him from Bashere since many of them can Travel.

 

I think Min's warning about Bashere and Logain wasn't about them being DF's but about them either dying or deciding that serving a Rabid Lion was no longer a feasible idea. I think it's more a warning to Rand's unstable mental state then anything else.

 

That's a possibility.

 

But, there's also Egwene's Dream about the man standing at Rand's shoulder with a knife to his throat.  A man that Rand doesn't even notice.  Couple that with Min's viewing of "something Dark" about Bashere, and you begin to get a better focus on who Davram Bashere really is and what cause he really serves.

 

That man Egwene dreamed about could possibly be Taim. He's standing (metaphorically) at Rand's shoulder and has a knife to his throat (Taim controls the Black Tower). As for something "dark" about Bashere, that could signify his actions and as many know, war is a dark and nasty business.

 

I think Bob T Dwarf has a point. Not only does he have a point, he also seems a clever guy.

 

I have a suspicion that Davram Bashere is a DF. It's been pointed out before too, and I go by that theory, even though I really like Bashy.

 

I am quite moot at what happened before the mansion attack. Who was there, and how did they get to that mansion, seeing as it is in no-mans land.

 

I agree. Bob T. Dwarf is a pretty smart and clever guy and also has a good user name. As for your question, "Tuon" (aka Semihrage) placed restrictions on who was to be at the manor. She said that she would assume that every man there could channel so Rand couldn't bring Bashere and his soldiers. Rand also didn't trust the Seanchan so he had other Asha'man and soldiers in case of treachery.

 

When the (stuff) hit the fan, other Asha'man in the hills around the manor opened gateways and Bashere and his troops came through.

[a pale tanned lover]

Min's viewing was "And there's something... dark... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you, or dies?" (CoT, Ch. 24)

 

The meaning is simple. He's important to Rand. The "turns" seems to imply him returning to Tenobia. Remember he said that Tenobia would likely see his allegiance to Rand as treason and since she's not on Rand's side, she could possibly force him to switch his allegiance back to her.

/quote]

 

So are you saying that you think Rand will have to fight Tenobia before the Last Battle?

 

As for something "dark" about Bashere, that could signify his actions and as many know, war is a dark and nasty business./quote]

 

I would think that too simple a solution since surely alot more people would have dark images considering whats coming up.

 

Also do you think its similar to the darkness that surrounds Rand in Min's viewings?

 

And this might be streching a bit too much put on the point of Rand with a knife at his throat, but the first time Rand met Bashere he threw a dagger at him........

 

 

 

[Shard]

I think Min's warning about Bashere and Logain wasn't about them being DF's but about them either dying or deciding that serving a Rabid Lion was no longer a feasible idea. I think it's more a warning to Rand's unstable mental state then anything else.

 

That's a possibility.

 

But, there's also Egwene's Dream about the man standing at Rand's shoulder with a knife to his throat.  A man that Rand doesn't even notice.  Couple that with Min's viewing of "something Dark" about Bashere, and you begin to get a better focus on who Davram Bashere really is and what cause he really serves.

 

That could also be Taim or Moridin; Rand practically ignores what Taim is doing at the BT. Moridin seems to be sharing space in Rand's head as the "third man" that Lews Therin refers to. Also some people believe that vision to represent Grey Men trying to kill Rand.

[Titan Orion]

But, there's also Egwene's Dream about the man standing at Rand's shoulder with a knife to his throat.  A man that Rand doesn't even notice.  Couple that with Min's viewing of "something Dark" about Bashere, and you begin to get a better focus on who Davram Bashere really is and what cause he really serves

 

There are many people this could be about, and although Bashere is a good suspect he isnt a better suspect than, say, Taim, or even Moridin, who at the very least thinks he is manipulating Rand. Good observation though.

 

I remember skimming through one of the later books and seeing a scene where Rand is injured (stabbed?) and as the woman thinks Rand is unconscious she and her companion talk, they say something along the lines of Bashere not being happy if Rand dies there and then. One of the women put a knife back in under her coat or whatever, and it seemed as though they were loyal to Bashere, on top of that they crap themselves when they realise Rand might be able to hear them. It looked very fishy to me but I cant remember which book its in; I think its the same book where Rand loses it while using Callandor. Will have a look tonight

[Muad Cheade]

@a pale tanned lover. I didn't say there would be a fight between Tenobia and Rand, but then again, Rand hasn't visited the Borderlanders and they are looking for Rand with 200,000 well-trained, well-armed soldiers and 13 Aes Sedai whose allegiance we are not certain of. Anything could happen with that explosive combination.

 

I know what you are talking about, Titan Orion (nice name by the way). It is Chapter 23 of The Path of Daggers. The area where Rand is attacked by Senachan due to Weiramon's carelessness and he takes a crossbow in the arm. He falls from his horse and Ailil Riatin (Toram's sister) and Anaiyella Narencelona huddle over him. Rand is not sure whether they are thinking of killing him or protecting him. Anaiyella says it's the perfect time to make their "mistake" but Ailil says that Rand can hear them and that Bashere would hang them. So it shows that the nobles think that Bashere is Rand's man to the death.

[Builder]

Yes but what about the stuff Titan orion said about the two women who stabbed Rand and said that Bashee wouldn't be happy if he died then and there, Then they shit brix when they found out that Rand could hear them?

[Mr Ares]

I think Bob T Dwarf has a point. Not only does he have a point, he also seems a clever guy.

I think you might revise that opinion when you have more experience of his theories. I tend to take them with a rather large pinch of salt. *cough*BasherekilledAsmo*cough*

 

The man Bashere was sending Tumad to find was either Logain or his representative, per encyclopaedia-wot

[Majsju]

What Bashere agrees to is indeed to help Logain find Rand.

 

The darkness Min sees around Bashere...Considering who Bashere is, and the position he holds in Camp Rand, it is far from unlikely that it is his death, and not him turning Rand should worry about.

However, if he is going to turn, my favourite reason would be because of something happening to Deira. Her being captured by DFs, who then would tell Bashere to do something special, or she dies would tie in with how Perrin was ready to turn his back to everything TG-related if that was what it took to get Faile back.

 

Tenobia I do not see as a big risk. She is a borderlander, after all, and should thus be very aware of the importance of TG. If she wants Basheres head, she can have it after TG.

[Titan Orion]

Anaiyella says it's the perfect time to make their "mistake" but Ailil says that Rand can hear them and that Bashere would hang them. So it shows that the nobles think that Bashere is Rand's man to the death.

 

but would this bit mean Would he hang them because they harmed the man they are loyal to, or would he hang them because they broke the Dont Kill Rand order? Everything about Bashere other than his relationship to Rand screams at me.

 

The darkness Min sees around Bashere...Considering who Bashere is, and the position he holds in Camp Rand, it is far from unlikely that it is his death, and not him turning Rand should worry about

 

I disagree with your way of thinking here. Because Bashere is in a position if trust, that means Rand shouldnt be worried about his allegience? Can the same be said about Taim? If Rand didnt need to worry about Bashere turning against him then Min wouldnt have had the viewing. Surely, BECAUSE Bashere is in such a position, THAT is the reason why rand should worry. Min has already given us a clue that Bashere may turn against Rand from one of the most reliable source we can get.

 

We all know how apt the Shadow are at getting people into high places. Not that I think Bashere is DEFINITELY a Darkfriend or anything, but it would be right up their avenue to get someone to command Rands armies and tehn have that person desert Rand when hes marching for Tarmon Gaidon. We should keep a very close eye on Bashere.

 

If Bashere turned against Rand then who knows what will happen to the army Bashere built? Bashere buit it, not Rand. A name as big as Basheres would cut to the bone for many of Rands followers if he turned against Rand. No, I dont think Rand can be sure about Bashere just because Bashere is already in a position of trust. Not at all.

[Majsju]

I disagree with your way of thinking here. Because Bashere is in a position if trust, that means Rand shouldnt be worried about his allegience? Can the same be said about Taim? If Rand didnt need to worry about Bashere turning against him then Min wouldnt have had the viewing. Surely, BECAUSE Bashere is in such a position, THAT is the reason why rand should worry. Min has already given us a clue that Bashere may turn against Rand from one of the most reliable source we can get.

 

You are reading me wrong. The point here is that Min gives both Basheres death, as well as his betrayal as possibilities. But the possibility of deth seems to have been dropped by most people here. Which is a mistake, because the Shadow have every reason to want to see Bashere dead. Thus, Bashere dying is at least as likely as Bashere turning against Rand.

 

 

 

 

[a pale tanned lover]

I disagree with your way of thinking here. Because Bashere is in a position if trust, that means Rand shouldnt be worried about his allegience? Can the same be said about Taim? If Rand didnt need to worry about Bashere turning against him then Min wouldnt have had the viewing. Surely, BECAUSE Bashere is in such a position, THAT is the reason why rand should worry. Min has already given us a clue that Bashere may turn against Rand from one of the most reliable source we can get.

 

You are reading me wrong. The point here is that Min gives both Basheres death, as well as his betrayal as possibilities. But the possibility of deth seems to have been dropped by most people here. Which is a mistake, because the Shadow have every reason to want to see Bashere dead. Thus, Bashere dying is at least as likely as Bashere turning against Rand.

 

 

 

 

 

If it was about Bashere dying then there wouldn't be other images after that, I believe she was uncertain what they meant and was trying to simplify it to bashere turning in the context of him dying because she then goes on too mention Dobraine as well

[Titan Orion]

I disagree with your way of thinking here. Because Bashere is in a position if trust, that means Rand shouldnt be worried about his allegience? Can the same be said about Taim? If Rand didnt need to worry about Bashere turning against him then Min wouldnt have had the viewing. Surely, BECAUSE Bashere is in such a position, THAT is the reason why rand should worry. Min has already given us a clue that Bashere may turn against Rand from one of the most reliable source we can get.

 

You are reading me wrong. The point here is that Min gives both Basheres death, as well as his betrayal as possibilities. But the possibility of deth seems to have been dropped by most people here. Which is a mistake, because the Shadow have every reason to want to see Bashere dead. Thus, Bashere dying is at least as likely as Bashere turning against Rand.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I misunderstood because you said that while we discussed the idea of Bashere as a Darkfriend. True though, that isnt the only possibility. The thing that makes me rule out Bashere dying as the most likely of the two is because of all the other quirky things about him, it all looks like foreshadowing of another person turning out to be a Darkfriend