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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Lord Nik

Not the Guys fault!

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Such as Elayne going on about how Rand made everything in Andor so difficult.

 

After he de-Forsakened the City.

Created order.

I do not recall Elayne complaining about Rand making anything in Andor difficult.  The only complaint about Rand from her that I recall was that he held the throne for her and about him "giving" her Andor's & Cairhien's thrones; and that was just one time.

Closest complaint to making things difficult seems applied to Rahvin.

 

Just to make clear, could you give reference to the passage/passages you refer to?

 

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...but I think he lacks the subtly and skill to pull these particular things off.

 

I think his point was intentionally blunt. I'm certain that he could have constructed an entirely different story wherein the characters and the gender conflicts are all subtle, but I'm also certain it would be an entirely different story.

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I understand that Jordan is trying to show how the lack of, or poor, communication can hinder people, and that he's trying to do a gender role-reversal thing, but I think he lacks the subtly and skill to pull these particular things off.

 

I think you may be making the mistake of expecting people in a different society to act like 21st century westerners.  Jordan has been remarkably consistent in making his characters coherent within their setting.

 

If you don't like the characters, well, fine, but keep in mind, a world full of people that you like would be unrealistic ... unless you like everyone in real the world?

 

As for the accuracy, or putative lack of it, in his various miscommunication episodes ... have you actually read any of these threads?  If anything, Jordan understates the degree to which actual people miscommunicate.

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I understand that Jordan is trying to show how the lack of, or poor, communication can hinder people, and that he's trying to do a gender role-reversal thing, but I think he lacks the subtly and skill to pull these particular things off.

 

I think you may be making the mistake of expecting people in a different society to act like 21st century westerners.  Jordan has been remarkably consistent in making his characters coherent within their setting.

 

If you don't like the characters, well, fine, but keep in mind, a world full of people that you like would be unrealistic ... unless you like everyone in real the world?

 

As for the accuracy, or putative lack of it, in his various miscommunication episodes ... have you actually read any of these threads?  If anything, Jordan understates the degree to which actual people miscommunicate.

 

Well said.

 

In my opinion there is a lot of comedy to be found in generalizations - even when the reader disagrees.

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I understand that Jordan is trying to show how the lack of, or poor, communication can hinder people, and that he's trying to do a gender role-reversal thing, but I think he lacks the subtly and skill to pull these particular things off.

 

I think you may be making the mistake of expecting people in a different society to act like 21st century westerners.  Jordan has been remarkably consistent in making his characters coherent within their setting.

 

If you don't like the characters, well, fine, but keep in mind, a world full of people that you like would be unrealistic ... unless you like everyone in real the world?

 

As for the accuracy, or putative lack of it, in his various miscommunication episodes ... have you actually read any of these threads?  If anything, Jordan understates the degree to which actual people miscommunicate.

 

You didn't get my point at all.  My point was that almost all the women's personalities are carbon copies of each other.  It's nothing to do with what is contained within those personalities and characteristics.  As I said, I do like Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne as characters - but almost all the other female characters behave in exactly the same way they do.  There is very little variation.  Even people brought up in the same household in a single society have different personalities.  Jordan's females generally do not show variation - they all think men are idiots, they all try to boss each other around, they all feel they know more than everyone else, they all believe they should be in control, etc, etc.

 

I'm not asking for a world full of people I like.  I'm not exactly sure how you gathered that from my post.  I'm asking for a wider variation of personalities among characters.  I didn't say I had to like those personalities, just that they should be different.  I think Elayne is stupid and irritating, but I appreciate her as a character.

 

And I don't think he understates the lack of communication at all, despite what might be said in other threads.  He is constantly hammering the lack of communication between even the closest of friends.  For instance, Mat, Rand, and Perrin have that classic running joke of none of them understanding women but believing the others do.  People are always misinterperting events/reasons/actions of other people in the novels.  I applaud the attempt and think that it's quite interesting to see the different takes on events, but it's overdone to the point of irritation at times.

 

 

 

There has to be a reason, or several reasons, why these threads complaining about the behaviour of the female characters (and sometimes the male characters) keep re-appearing.

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There has to be a reason, or several reasons, why these threads complaining about the behaviour of the female characters (and sometimes the male characters) keep re-appearing.

 

Because the majority of people who come to this board are men and are, as such, unlikely to bitch about the men in the story.

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I'm more than willing to bitch about everyone including:

 

  • Mat Pre-TDR
  • Perrin Post-Faile-Kidnapping
  • Rand Post-I-Must-Be-HARD
  • Egwene Post-TSR with her hypocricy
  • Elayne's behavior with Juilin/Thom and later Mat
  • Elayne's stupidity getting her kidnapped by the Black Ajah and losing many guards in the rescue
  • Nynaeve up to the point where she gets married
  • Aes Sedai in general

 

So hey, I'm an equal opportunity hater. :)  I think a lot of it makes sense though.  Even if it's annoying at times.

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I'm more than willing to bitch about everyone including:

 

  • Mat Pre-TDR
  • Perrin Post-Faile-Kidnapping
  • Rand Post-I-Must-Be-HARD
  • Egwene Post-TSR with her hypocricy
  • Elayne's behavior with Juilin/Thom and later Mat
  • Elayne's stupidity getting her kidnapped by the Black Ajah and losing many guards in the rescue
  • Nynaeve up to the point where she gets married
  • Aes Sedai in general

 

So hey, I'm an equal opportunity hater. :)  I think a lot of it makes sense though.  Even if it's annoying at times.

 

I have to agree with all of that except the Mat part.  I've always liked the Mat character.  He was immature and irresponsible and outright stupid, but he learnt a lot and overcame a lot.  I think, as a character, he has shown amazing growth and he is now probably the best leader of people in the whole series.  I can't say I 'liked Mat as a person' but I did like Mat as a character.

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My point was that almost all the women's personalities are carbon copies of each other.

 

I felt that way for a while too.  IDK if it's a result of reading the books so many times or being 12 years older now than I was when I started reading the series, but I do see both variety and development in the personalities of the women that I didn't see before.

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Yeah, it's not quite simple to get to know someone through reading a book. Character development is done through the situations they are placed in, not from reading a profile or something. So the personalities are all open for interpretation.

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I'd say the girls' personalities are very different -- with one caveat.

 

They all think men are inferior.

 

Egwene thinks all the time about how Mat or Rand or such can't handle things and should just listen to her and Moiraine.  Elayne thinks the same (though she has a reason up to a point, she's still a bitch about it).  Nynaeve thinks the same as well, having raised them all from children.

 

However, Egwene is not Elayne is not Nynaeve is not Moiraine is not Cadsuane.  Each character is very different to my mind, aside from that one trait.  And that trait makes sense with how the world developed post-tainting of saidin.  It's liable to change.

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Nynaeve doesn't just think men are stupid - she thinks everyone except herself is. I would love to see Cadsuane give her a good slippering  ;D

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Nynaeve's issue is more that she has to be in charge than everyone is stupid.  She tells herself people are stupid or complains about them doing dumb things when they aren't what she wants done.  Look at her development, she became a wisdom very young, she could actually listen to the wind, she got used to people jumping when she said frog.  Once she left the TR she fell considerably in status in her mind.  What's worse is by all rights and means, within the AS society, she should be in charge.

 

Now, all the people she used to have looking to her for guidance have grown into their new roles.  Rand is the DR, Perrin's  the lord of the TR, Egwene's amyrlin.  Elayne is the closest character type but now both are starting to get over themselves.

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I'm more than willing to bitch about everyone including:

 

  • Rand Post-I-Must-Be-HARD

 

I must say, that made me giggle.

 

In the beginning this whole men vs. women thing kind of made me chuckle in a 'they're so silly' way, but by now I'm getting really irritated by the gender war. It's infuriating.

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Nynaeve's issue is more that she has to be in charge than everyone is stupid.  She tells herself people are stupid or complains about them doing dumb things when they aren't what she wants done

 

Uhm ... exactly.

 

Look at her development, she became a wisdom very young, she could actually listen to the wind, she got used to people jumping when she said frog.  Once she left the TR she fell considerably in status in her mind.  What's worse is by all rights and means, within the AS society, she should be in charge.

 

Nynaeve was this way long before she heard about how AS decide who's above and who's below them.

She's the one who tried to get the Kin to stand up to AS, and then when they do, she is upset because they stand up to her too  ::)

 

Now, all the people she used to have looking to her for guidance have grown into their new roles.  Rand is the DR, Perrin's  the lord of the TR, Egwene's amyrlin.  Elayne is the closest character type but now both are starting to get over themselves.

 

Not sure where you are going with that? Unless you mean that she has improved a bit from her earlier nature?

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You didn't get my point at all.  My point was that almost all the women's personalities are carbon copies of each other.

 

Then you've simply missed RJ's true subtlety, which makes your accusation that "he lacks the subtly and skill to pull these particular things off," the very definition of irony.

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Nynaeve's issue is more that she has to be in charge than everyone is stupid.  She tells herself people are stupid or complains about them doing dumb things when they aren't what she wants done

 

Uhm ... exactly.

 

Look at her development, she became a wisdom very young, she could actually listen to the wind, she got used to people jumping when she said frog.  Once she left the TR she fell considerably in status in her mind.  What's worse is by all rights and means, within the AS society, she should be in charge.

 

Nynaeve was this way long before she heard about how AS decide who's above and who's below them.

She's the one who tried to get the Kin to stand up to AS, and then when they do, she is upset because they stand up to her too  ::)

 

Now, all the people she used to have looking to her for guidance have grown into their new roles.  Rand is the DR, Perrin's  the lord of the TR, Egwene's amyrlin.  Elayne is the closest character type but now both are starting to get over themselves.

 

Not sure where you are going with that? Unless you mean that she has improved a bit from her earlier nature?

 

I was trying to make the difference between Nyn believing everyone is dumb and deluding herself because she cannot handle letting authority go.  I must have misunderstood your point and now we argue the same side. way to go me! :D

And yes I think that since her marriage Nyn has started to learn that you don't always have to be in charge.

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Well, as long as we are arguing the same side, all's good ... *grins and winks*

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For shame not liking Mat pre tDR. He was the lovable prankster! And he was hilarious when he had the Dagger! When he took a chunk out of all the girls when they came to see him it was great!

 

Ok when I first read the series I really liked (almost) all the characters. But on the second re read I started to get annoyed with the girls inability to give credit to the guys. The third time was when I started hating girls like Egwene and Elayne.

 

I dont know what re read I am on now but I'm on book Five (FoH) and I just skip sections that have Egwene/Elayne to save me a headache.

 

I dont know how anyone could like Elayne when RJ went to so much effort into making Elayne into an unlikable snobby child.

(ie. Elayne gets drunk in tavern, goes upstairs and throws a fit a Thom. literally stamping her foot and screaming "I'm not a child you answer me now bla bla blah!")

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You didn't get my point at all.  My point was that almost all the women's personalities are carbon copies of each other.

 

Then you've simply missed RJ's true subtlety, which makes your accusation that "he lacks the subtly and skill to pull these particular things off," the very definition of irony.

 

What is Jordan's true subtleness in regards to his female character personalities?  You fail to explain.

 

 

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What is Jordan's true subtleness in regards to his female character personalities?  You fail to explain.

 

The character's personalities are not remotely "carbon copies of each other".  I don't really have the space, or at this point, the inclination to write a paper on the differences in characterization ... just as you didn't write an extensive treatise on their purported sameness.

 

I can't explain it better than Jordan did when he wrote them, so if you didn't get it from reading his stuff, my stuff won't help you.  But they are definitely individuals, characterized and written as such.

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What is Jordan's true subtleness in regards to his female character personalities?  You fail to explain.

 

The character's personalities are not remotely "carbon copies of each other".  I don't really have the space, or at this point, the inclination to write a paper on the differences in characterization ... just as you didn't write an extensive treatise on their purported sameness.

 

I can't explain it better than Jordan did when he wrote them, so if you didn't get it from reading his stuff, my stuff won't help you.  But they are definitely individuals, characterized and written as such.

I think some readers might confuse gender roles with personalities. Almost all of the women share certain characteristics because they are women,same as nearly all of the men share certain, different characteristics than the women do. What I see, is an argument similar to saying, "All of the little boys in the elementary school I attended had the same personality. They were all rambunctious and loud, refused to sit still and pay attention in class, would not keep their hands to themselves, thought girls were dumb and icky without exception, refused to play with dolls or dishes or any other realistic, domestic things and instead, invariably pretended they were savages or warriors or spacemen or some other sort of unrealistic adventurers. They were annoying carbon copies of one another, not like real people at all."

 

One could make a similar argument that all of the Aiel have the same personality, and all of the Sea Folk, and all of the Aes Sedai, and it seems to go on and on. It is because Jordan was skilled at depicting culture, gender, and institutional roles in his characters, but within those frameworks, there is a variety of individuality. They each have their own personality, but the women, all of the women regardless of their respective culture, show the same gender identity roles. That is realistic, not inaccurate.

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Besides, on the original argument, from Elayne's perspective, Rand did make thing enormously more complicated when he said he would give her the throne, so that the Lion throne would be supplicant to the Dragon Reborn under her. She had to publicly sever any contact with Rand to have any chance for the throne! Whatever Rand had done, she could not use, not even the Aiel as a police force, because none of the houses would support a puppet.

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