AMOL Part 1: The Gathering Storm Speculation

[Luckers]

The english language does not work that way. People do not say "As for your question, nothing of use. I like pineapple."

 

The flow of the sentences connects the two. The second sentence was a clarification of the first. She saw nothing of use, just that Taim had blood in his past and his future. She saw it. It wasn't of use, since anyone could see it at a casual glance, but she saw it nonetheless. Thats why she specified it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm sorry, but the english language most certainly does work that way.  That is why periods were invented.  The ancient Greeks didn't have them, and it made ancient Greek confusing.  (Did you see how the period allowed me to transition from one idea to a related but different one?)

 

The sentences are connected, just not the way you are claiming.  Both sentences are about Mazrim Taim.  I saw nothing of use about him in visions.  The man has blood in his past and future, as you can guess.  He is dangerous.

 

Three related thoughts, with the middle sentence a bridge between the two.  I saw nothing of use about him in visions. *bridge sentence* He is dangerous. 

 

Rand was depending on Min for information.  She didn't have anything useful, but wanted to make sure that Rand was still thinking of Taim as dangerous.  Thats what people are doing when they tell people things that those people already know.

[MikeRiley]

Is anybody else having to hit refresh like 10 times to get the page to finish loading?

 

The sentences are connected but not everything from the second sentence is a viewing. She includes "he has blood in his past" to note that Taim is no different now than he was before. "This guy was a killer, he's still a killer." She's not speaking prophecy here where every word of what she says is part of it. She's speaking it as a person in conversation. If all she saw in her viewing was that he would kill more people, she could still say "He has blood in his past and blood in his future."

 

It wasn't of no use, it all served to say he wasn't reformed.

[Elgee]

No, it was a viewing.

 

"Did you see anything, Min?" Rand said.

 

[Min assures Perrin that the Aiel dont care about her viewings]

 

"As for your question, nothing of any use. Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that. He's a dangerous man. They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai."

 

Whilst Min may agree with you that anyone could see that about Taim, she states that her viewing shows it.

 

I agree with Luckers on this. She COULD have said something along the lines of: "As for your question, nothing of any use. I think / my opinion is / I'd say Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that."

 

But she doesn't use any rider (is that the correct term?) to make it clear to Rand that it's not a viewing, just her opinion, as she's done on other occasions. Also, couple "nothing of any use" with "but you could guess that", and it makes it clear why it's nothing of use, but it IS a viewing.

[Luckers]

'm sorry, but the english language most certainly does work that way.  That is why periods were invented.  The ancient Greeks didn't have them, and it made ancient Greek confusing.  (Did you see how the period allowed me to transition from one idea to a related but different one?)

 

I see that your third sentance added to your second. "As for your question, nothing of use. Taim has blood in his past...." is similar. The second sentence being a continuation of the first. In this case an elaboration of the viewing she'd had, and why it was not of use--specifically because it was readily apparent.

 

In your case it was also an ellaboration, but of the point you were making. Of course your paragraph differed from Min's in that the point of yours was a response to me in the argumentative form, whereas Min's was to answer a question. In each case the flow of the paragraph is to continue the point to which the entirety was written.

 

He asked her what she'd viewed--she told him. She added the commentary that it wasn't of use because anyone could see it, but she still told him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You're assuming that Min's one and only purpose was to elaborate on her viewing.  But that is not the case.  She was addressing first what she actually saw, then the purpose behind Rand's request.

 

1) (I have to be honest, because I love you and want you to trust me.) As for your question, nothing of any use.

 

2) (Since I know you're looking for information on which to base your decisions, I'll give you some.) Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that. (Notice her subtly reinforcing his intelligence, while imparting the point she wants him thinking about.)

 

3) (Here's the conclusion I want you to reach.) He's a dangerous man.

 

4) (Now change the subject, so you don't really question that conclusion.) They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai.

 

Communication is never free from subtext or motivation.  The end result is that Min was not describing a specific vision in her second sentence. 

 

Sentences can be and often are connected in the way you are describing, Luckers.  But that is not the only way in which they can be connected.

[CUBAREY]

Frankly, could have meant it both ways. Shew could either be saying she viewed his past and future and that they both reveal that he has blood on his hand. Or she could be saying that she viewed his future and its no different from his past (which she knows about from Rand, et. all.). There is no way of knowing from the statement itself which she was saying. That her viewings have generally been about the future leads me to tend to side with RAW but there is no certainty offered in the subject statements by Min.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry but thats completely unsustained by the text.

 

She says, blanket, "As for your question, nothing of any use.  Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that.  He's a dangerous man.  They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai."

 

There is no equivication in that. No room for the insertion of agenda--the entirety is about her viewing. Which is why she both begins and ends the sentence about viewing. It's framed.

 

You are reaching Robert, trying to explain away a contradiction between RJ's stated position and the text. Fact is these things happen, and I'm always the first to back a viable explanation--but there is none with this. Min was speaking of a viewing.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Frankly, could have meant it both ways

 

Independent of all context, yes.  Within the context of RJ's statement about her only seeing the future, and all of her other viewings being of only the future, then it becomes clear what she meant.

 

Context, people.  Context.

 

She says, blanket, "As for your question, nothing of any use.  Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that.  He's a dangerous man.  They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai."

 

There is no equivication in that. No room for the insertion of agenda--the entirety is about her viewing. Which is why she both begins and ends the sentence about viewing. It's framed.

 

Sorry, Luckers.  You're just wrong.  The language can and often does work that way.  I've done it, and I know others who have done it.  It may not be what you would have meant, if you had said those words.  In this case, I wouldn't have put it that specific way either.  But the way you use the language, and the way that I use the language, are not the only ways it can be legitimately used.

 

You are reaching Robert, trying to explain away a contradiction between RJ's stated position and the text. Fact is these things happen, and I'm always the first to back a viable explanation--but there is none with this. Min was speaking of a viewing.

 

I've acknowledged just plain errors on the part of RJ before.  This isn't one of them.

[Luckers]

All that really leaves is for us to disagree.

[RobertAlexWillis]

'Fraid so.

[AmbeRebmA]

This is one of the most polite and courteous arguments I've ever read  :)

[AmbeRebmA]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Fain. He's been quiet for a few books and is bound to resurface soon.

[Charlz Guybon]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Fain. He's been quiet for a few books and is bound to resurface soon.

He was in Far Madding the last we saw. He could show up in Tear, Illian, or Lugaard. Maybe Caemlyn, but there's hilly terrain in the way that'll slow him down.

 

How widely is Fain's 100,000 Crown bounty publicized?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Fain could show up literally anywhere, given his free and easy use of the Ways ...

[Charlz Guybon]

Fain could show up literally anywhere, given his free and easy use of the Ways ...

Hmm...I wonder if the traps that have been laid on the ways by Rand or Karldin would effect him?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not likely ... he as bad as he is, he isn't Shadowspawn.

[MikeRiley]

Does Fain make use of the Ways? I thought he had directions written out for him that he picked up when he entered through the gate in the Great Hunt? I know he would be safe in there from the wind, but I don't recall him knowing the Ways himself.

[RobertAlexWillis]

He can chat it up with the Black Wind, or at least, parts of it.  Also, he has info from Mordeth, and using the Ways was probably fairly common in Aridhol.  He should be able to read the Guidings.  In short, yep, he can use them and probably has been.

[Mr Ares]

This is one of the most polite and courteous arguments I've ever read  :)

I'm not sure that polite disagreement is actually allowed here...

[Elgee]

This is one of the most polite and courteous arguments I've ever read  :)

I'm not sure that polite disagreement is actually allowed here...

 

Makes a welcome change  :P

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

*LOL*

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm not sure that polite disagreement is actually allowed here...

 

Can it, Gospodin Zababa.  I can be as agreeable as I want to, and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it!

[Mr Ares]

I'm not sure that polite disagreement is actually allowed here...

 

Can it, Gospodin Zababa.  I can be as agreeable as I want to, and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it!

Normal service has been restored.

[rhadamanthus]

Since this thread seems to have "drifted" a bit, I'll continue the trend.

 

Some sappy things I am looking forward to (whatever book they happen in)...

 

1) Siuan finally coming clean with Gareth.  However that scene goes down, I think it will be touching.

 

2) The next time Matt meets with Tuon.  This should be funny, serious, and sentimental at the same time.  Textbook Matt - I can't wait.

 

3) (Waaaaaay in the future) - Rand marrying Aviendah in the Waste.  For some reason I think the bridal fight between the Tardaad and Far Dareis Mai and Rand carrying her off would just be a neat scene.

 

4) Birgitte meeting the young Gaidal.  Maybe this won't happen.  Maybe she won't know it, either.  But it would be really cool, IMO.

 

5)  If Elayne bonds Charlz, I think the first time he meets her other male warder will be epic.