has egwene done the nasty?

[Serenla]

 

1. We don't have the actual details of the physical act, therefore to determine if rape occured we must use the reactions of those involved to make that judgement. 

 

Actually Serenla, you could first try by responding to those who responded to you.

 

Sorry I thought that I addressed all of your points.  I am not used to having discussions in this environment and am tying to learn the most effective way to address multiple posts...

 

I'm sorry Serenla--Mat makes clear that the situation makes him deeply uncomfortable. We see him directly try to avoid it. We see her use her authority to stop him, we see her ignore his attempts to stop it.

 

Mat tells her after the fact that "[He's] the one who's supposed to do the chasing".  Feeling this way, yes he was uncomfortable with the relationship.  Being uncomfortable with a relationship does not mean that it is rape.  (I know a guy who was deepy ashamed and disguisted by the fact that he chose to have a physical relationship with a partner that his friends found unattractive, but she did not rape him.) 

I am in this discussion because to me his avoidance is not clear. These are the things he said to her:

When she was on his lap, "that someone might walk in", "respect for her crown" and "betrothal to a girl back home".  The first is something anyone would say if they were getting ready to have sex.  The second is questionable coming from Mat, he has a tendency to leer at women, queens included, which by now Tylin has noticed and probably taken as interest.  And respect for her crown is flattery not a refusal.  The third is a straight out lie and given Mat's reputation, he can't honestly believe that anyone would take that seriously.  Yes he called Thom and Juilin into the room, but that could mean that he needs to talk to them, or he could be putting her off for the fun of it.  It is not a refusal.

Yes, he tried to stay away from her, by sneaking around and coming in late, but she can't know if he's intentionally avoiding her or if he is just busy.  As for the food thing, he could get food anywhere in the city anytime he wanted to, and they both knew it.  From Tylin's point of view, he was playing hard to get and Mat has done enough chasing to know this.

 

 

On the day in question, "I don't have bloody time for...", "What are you going to do?" and "You can't do this to me".  To Tylin, the last was a challenge, not a rejection.  No time?  Not no desire to do so.  The second is not a refusal, it is more a question that indicates curiosity. 

 

 

She forced a sexual encounter that he was not willing for. You claim that he never said no, that he could have walked away--how--to walk away would be to abandon his promise to Rand to protect the girls, not to mention his agreement with the girls themselves. How precisely was he to pack up and leave.

He could have moved back to the inn, he didn't have to leave the city.  Yes, that would have broken his agreement with the girls, but he didn't really seem to think they'd stay with it anyway so moving back to the inn wasn't that big of a loss.

 

 

And you say he did not say no--do you realise the presure on men to have sex? Was he to say no and be emasculated--to say no directly would be to admit that she was the predator and he was the prey, his male-pride stopped that. Which is not to say he didn't assert his disdain for the situation.

 

Giving in to peer pressure happens all the time.  It's a choice to give in to that pressure.  If it wasn't a choice, then most sexually active teenagers and many adults are being raped.  Drinking wouldn't be a choice and in many environments neither would drug use. 

 

He tried to stop it--several times--and she circumvented him without batting an eyelash. I'm not sure what's worse--the use of the knife, or the use of her position as queen.

The knives... As soon as Tylin stabbed the knives into the bedpost, any physical threat to Mat was removed.  We know what Mat is capable of and we know that he could have had both knives before almost anyone else, certainly before Tylin.

As for being a queen, in the same book within days of this, Mat tells the Windfinder to the Mistress of the Ships that he's going to tie her to a packhorse.  Why would a queen intimidate him anymore than her?

 

You completely avoided my earlier comment by the way, the one that were this to occur with a king and a woman we'd be up in arms.

I don't remember seeing any discussion of Morgase and Valda, but it was a very similar situation. Morgase has spent 20 years of her life defending Andor and felt she had no choice other than to sleep with him to get an army to save her country.  The safety of her country was an even bigger threat to her than the loss of her life.  I still don't think that she was raped because she agreed to it. 

 

..and promptly have the guards called down on him. For disobeying a queen, you know. One who has no problem using her people to keep Mat there.

At this point in the story, Mat has no reason to believe that Tylin would do so.  He knows how arrogant nobles are, with arrogance comes a lack of desire for anyone to see you fail at anything.

It isn't necessary for a rape victim, or any other victim, to go through every possible futile effort of escape when they know it is no good and only causes further harm, yet it is still rape because they did not want the intercourse to happen before it happened. Stupidity or foolishness is not required.

Futile efforts no, but Mat is not the type to accept an unwanted fate without a fight.

 

There are larger things afoot than personal inviolability here, the people are all striving for things, some to fight the Shadow. Ebou Dar for one is not a safe city, going about unarmed can get you killed in a day, especially for a man. To expect people abandon everything just because of the threat of rape, when they cannot though they are often in mortal danger, is preposterous. So Mat should abandon Ebou Dar in a courageous effort of flight, so that the Bowl is never found, or if it is found Elayne will be dead and Nynaeve likely as well, the ter'angreal at the hand of Sammael? Mat never asked for Tylin's affections, that he put up with her, not being able to see to his duties otherwise, does not mean his duty did not require him to put up with rape.

As I said above, he could have gone back to the inn.  He has no reason to believe that that would be a problem considering the fact that's where he stayed when he got to the city.

 

I would say the psychological effects vary also. How much your world is rocked by such a thing, and a serious accident is pretty much comparable to this, it depends on your experiences and view of yourself and the world. A man is always human, but it is not necessary to remain obedient to every call of nature, remained governed by emotion and instict, it is possible to develop as a human. As an example in simple terms, I think a rape has a much greater impact on a person when it happens the first time.

Vary maybe, the degree and outward signs, but there is no hint of any effect other than annoyance at her being the one who chased and a noble.  We know what he is thinking.

Because a situation like Mat's was not rape!!!  A raped man would be just as scarred as a raped women, possibly more so, because of societies pressure for men to be strong and so on and so forth. 

If only studies done on the psychology of sex actually agreed with you.  Penetration changes the emotional effects surrounding the sexual encounter.  So, if the man is penetrated, by all means yes, it is just as scarring if not more so.  However, if the man is not penetrated, the emotional effects aren't the same.  You are not a man, so would not understand.  But I can say, that if I was single my reaction would be much like Mat's, with maybe a bit more anger.  However I would never, ever, consent to sexual relations with that woman.  I have only been with one woman, who is my wife.  I have turned down many opportunities over the years, and been called various names for it.  However, if I was raped, which I would have to be in a situation like this seeing how I would not consent, I would carry no emotional scars.  Because it's different for us.  There isn't the vulnerability, or the level of emotional involvement for most of us to the degree it is for most women.  It seems to me that the main thing that is bothering you is that we are calling it rape, and you are thinking that if it was rape why wasn't he bothered as much as he should be.  Most men wouldn't be as bothered as you think they should be, unless they were penetrated.  I was never a huge fan of the Psychology of Human Sexuality, but that was one thing that makes all the sense in the world to me.  I know how I react, I know how my wife reacts, and I know that's what they say is normal.  That's good enough for me.

I have taken a few psych classes and I didn't like them.  I am sure that there is some value in it, but there is no way of knowing any more than a person is willing to tell.  They can only tell things that they realize themself.  Men who have fought in war claim it didn't change them.  I don't believe that either.  Having your own wishes ignored causes anyone some distress.  There is no reason to believe that sex would be any different.  Reading a book gives a unique perspective of seeing what the character is thinking.  The irritation that Mat shows is directed towards, what Tylin is and the fact that she chased him, not the fact that they had sex.

[Serick Kerani]

How did this go from a discussion of Egwene supposedly losing her virginity to a discussion of whether Mat was truly raped by Tylin?

 

I personally don't think that he was truly raped. He was kind of forced a little but as to being raped and everything being against his will, I don't think so.

[Graendals favourite]

Futile efforts no, but Mat is not the type to accept an unwanted fate without a fight.

Like he always does as he has promised to do without fighting against it, even though carrying out his promise is what he least wants to do. It is impossible for Mat to operate in Ebou Dar if he makes an enemy of its ruler.

 

He could have moved back to the inn, he didn't have to leave the city.  Yes, that would have broken his agreement with the girls, but he didn't really seem to think they'd stay with it anyway so moving back to the inn wasn't that big of a loss.

You seem to forget that Tylin was Queen of Altara. Though her writ did not extend very many days outside Ebou Dar, it certainly stood in Ebou Dar, aside from the Rahad. Unlike our modern constitutional monarchs, she was no ceremonial figure either. A weak queen she was, so in political matters she could not act without regard for the other nobility, yet what comes to pretties running away from her, she could do as she pleased. Did she wish to have soldiers haul Mat to a cell, she could do that at a whim. Oh, there was that one time when she did have Mat brought back from the docks, as I remember. Setalle Anan would hardly hide Mat from the Queen herself, no one in Ebou Dar would once she ordered him found, else they must be fairly powerful to risk the displeasure of an insulted ruler.

 

That brings to mind that actually, Tylin did have excuse enough to think Mat was playing the coy little girl, at a role reversal, remembering how he first went to the palace by the front gates. Of course Tylin could only think Mat wanted to show himself off to her, and at the audience she accepted him. After all, surely the front gates are meant for official state visits or the like, and always to meet with the queen; quite a slight from an outland lordling to a weak queen to use the front gates but ask to meet the Aes Sedai in residence. This explains the servants' behaviour well, them taking the time in a very unusual situation to ask for Tylin's decision, whether she would ignore the slight and admit an audience without him asking or throw him in a cell instead. A very brave man or a great fool indeed, to try attracting the queen's interest that way. Quite an interesting premise, both of them acting quite logically by their own customs. Of course Tylin broke the rules when she refused to let him go.

 

Vary maybe, the degree and outward signs, but there is no hint of any effect other than annoyance at her being the one who chased and a noble.  We know what he is thinking.

Well I got the distinct impression that he was rather perplexed at what happened. I don't think he got to grips with it while in Ebou Dar at all. That is a completely understandable situation, very easy to imagine. Doesn't mean he won't have to get to the bottom of it sooner or later. In more severe cases that is called shock, I believe. It doesn't take hysterics after all.

 

How did this go from a discussion of Egwene supposedly losing her virginity to a discussion of whether Mat was truly raped by Tylin?

I think there was a bridge somewhere. But there isn't so much to discuss on Egwene, since it is clear she didn't. Aside from perhaps with Halima and Chesa, if that counts. The latter certainly.

[MikeRiley]

..and promptly have the guards called down on him. For disobeying a queen, you know. One who has no problem using her people to keep Mat there.

At this point in the story, Mat has no reason to believe that Tylin would do so.  He knows how arrogant nobles are, with arrogance comes a lack of desire for anyone to see you fail at anything.

 

Not true. Tylin was hounding him prior to that and he had every reason to believe she would call the guards, especially in the case of the locked door and the knife if he tried manhandling her (which he did try, hence the knife). She made it quite clear he wasn't to try unlocking that door.

 

The plain of it is, Mat didn't want to be with her. He made it clear he didn't want to be with her. She wouldn't leave him alone, wouldn't let him leave. Forced him to the bed with a knife, cut off his clothes with it, in some cases tied him down. The fact that he didn't flat out say "no" doesn't make any difference here. After the sex he wouldn't have been thinking it was the most terrible thing in the world, but that doesn't mean it wasn't rape. It's different for guys. Not to mention no guy wants to look like a sissy in front of a girl, even one who just raped him. Mat and his pipe smoking at the end seemed more of a resigned "it's over and done with" manner to me, and all his arguments as to why it was wrong was just him convincing Tylin to leave him alone.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I think Serenla (SP?) is right. Mats quote after the encounter proves it. "I'm supposed to do the chasing. It's not natural!" after he took the pipe stem out of his mouth. Not, say...Ran to bathe himself because he felt so dirty and violated. Someone who is raped doesn't stick around to smoke a cigarette afterwards. It all comes down to the simple fact the she made the first move and every subsequential move afterwards. He wasn't distressed at the act of sex at all. He was distressed that it wasn't him who initiated it and because of his instinctual dislike of nobles and authority figures. That's it. End of story.

 

My first issue with this is you speak so firmly of rape victims and what they do after the rape--running off to bathe, and smoking cigarettes. How precisely do you claim to know this? It's not sustained in any psychological journal i know of--though to be fair i only had psych as a minor. Perhaps you have further knowledge that i do not. If so, please extrapolate.

 

In the presumptive absense of that knowledge, men sexually victimized by women have greater difficulties realising it--even to themselves. The strong social onus for the men to own the sex that occurred prevents actions such as bathing to rid oneself of filth--an action that directly acknowledges that they were violated.

 

My second problem is your claim that he wasn't distressed at the sex. He shows quite clearly how distressed he is. He directly seeks to avoid her, lays plan after plan to escape, and displays clearly his distress during the act.

 

I was just assuming I guess, to be honest. I would imagine someone who was raped would feel dirty and abused and would therefore want to "Cleanse" themselves of the encounter. Not neccasarily by acutally bathing. But at least get as far away from the person as soon as possible. Not lay abed afterwards with their rapist and smoke out of their pipe. Even a man.

 

Secondly, he is not distressed at the act of sex itself. Just at the fact the he is not the instigator. Yes he tries to avoid Tylin at all costs but only because she is "Doing the chasing" and not him. Not out of any desire to avoid being violated. It's simply the fact that he didn't make the first move that bothers him, not actually having sex with her. If Tylin had been some maid in a bar he would have gladly chased after her and had sex with her if it came to that. But SHE chased HIM and this is what he is bothered by. Nothing else. Also, to be fair we don't know whether or not he was distressed "During" the act. Since we only see the before and after. Tylin was obviously satisfied afterwards and she doesn't seem like a serial rapist so I doubt that the single act of sleeping with a man against his will would pleasure her that much. Mat must have been doing something, right?

 

 

P.S. I totally screwd up the quoting mechanism. Sorry. I'm sure you can figure it out though. You seem like a smart guy. :)

 

 

 

[Thor]

he didn't make clear anything.  rand frightened berelain so much so that she scurried out as fast as she could.  what did mat do?

 

we know very well that mat has the speed to snatch the dagger out of tylin's hand before she can even blink, we know that he is capable of smacking tylin's bottom like he did to aes sedai.  he didn't make anything clear.

 

it tylin raped mat, then aviendha also raped rand.

[MikeRiley]

Rand channeled and scared the crap out of Berelain that way (or maybe it was the whole bit with Rand's mirror images trying to kill him). Tylin has seen knife play and has probably been in a duel or two herself despite being the queen. She certainly isn't afraid of it, and spanking Tylin would only get her back up and put out an execution order, Morgase style.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I would like to mention that Mat has a weakness to women with knives - he killed the Aiel woman, and there was Darkfriend with the hot knife when he was sick.  Considering he comes from the same culture as Rand, and his previous experiences, Tylin with a knife was an overpowering image, just as insurmountable as a man might seem to a woman in our male dominated culture.

 

It is undeniable that he did not want to have sex, at least the first time.  His actions, words, and thoughts all indicate that.  Look at the situation with reversed genders:  The king backs the visiting lady into bed with a knife, and dresses her up to be laughed at by the court.  It's situational comedy because of course Mat could just kick Tylin's ass, but that is completely taboo.  That doesn't stop it from being rape though.

[vainebekonnes]

Rand channeled and scared the crap out of Berelain that way (or maybe it was the whole bit with Rand's mirror images trying to kill him). Tylin has seen knife play and has probably been in a duel or two herself despite being the queen. She certainly isn't afraid of it, and spanking Tylin would only get her back up and put out an execution order, Morgase style.

 

I completely disagree.  I think spanking Tylin would lead to playful bites, maybe some a bit harder than others to show that she thought the spanking went too far.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Something else just occured to me. Mat had to have known and also we, as readers had to have been pretty sure that Tylin never would have really used the knife on Mat. She knew that he was in the company of Aes Sedai and at least important enough to be traveling with them on a very important mission. Also wasn't she also aware that he was Ta'Veren? We all know how carefully any noble, including Tylin, tread around Aes Sedai. So when you think about it for a second does anyone really think that she would have killed him? I sure don't. At the most he would have gotten away with a flesh-wound that needed stitching. At best he could have just taken it away from her and maybe had a rumor spread that he had an unfortunate encounter with the queen and was kicked out of the palace which would have at worst probably earned him a lecture/scolding from Elayne and Nynaeve. Which, while probably horrible, is infinitely preferable to being "Raped." One would think. Not to again mention the fact(Although I just did), as Serenla has pointed out many times, that as soon as she stuck the knife in the bedpost he could have made an even easier getaway. In the end all it comes down to is that Mat experienced a little emasculation due to the fact that Tylin initiated the sexual encounter and did the "Chasing" as it were.

 

Everyone keeps saying that if it were a King and a servant girl in this scenario the it would be called rape. You're right. But that's like saying if the Sun were the Moon then it would be daytime at night. Or something to that effect. You know what I mean!!

 

And for the record, i've had knives pulled on me and even been stabbed on one occasion. By a guy, but the point is that I didn't just fall to my knees and grovel and do what they told me to. I took the knife in my elbow and then choked the guy out.(Watch the UFC you can learn a lot :) ) Obviously Mat could never and would never do this to Tylin. But then again he killed Melhindra (SP?) when she threatened his life so he could have defended himself against Tylin. But, to a much lesser degree of course.

[Shard]

All those might be good points for the point you are trying to make, except for the fact that she used a knife to threaten him.

And at some point let go of them to stab into the bedpost, hard enough that she had to yank them out.  If someone is threatening a person into anything, they will stop them or leave as soon as the threat is removed.  Mat staying means that he wanted to stay.

 

Don't forget he has killed women by this point, Melindra(sp) and that DF that tried to stab him back in book 1. Mat does know how to fight someone off if he really wants to.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

it tylin raped mat, then aviendha also raped rand.

Good point. Anyone care to respond.

 

It's clear that he was pretty uncomfortable, I mean, she pulled his head down and generally took control.

[vainebekonnes]

it tylin raped mat, then aviendha also raped rand.

Good point. Anyone care to respond.

 

It's clear that he was pretty uncomfortable, I mean, she pulled his head down and generally took control.

 

She didn't use a knife to threaten Rand.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

She didn't use a knife to threaten Rand.

I don't believe Mat could possibly have been threatened by a middle aged woman holding a knife. He's far to good a fighter for that to concern him.

 

Apologies, but Avi forceably initiated sex.

 

* I don't think either case was rape.

[Graendals favourite]

Well, I disagree, but I suppose one can have different views on what constitutes a rape. In my opinion sex must always have the consent of both parties involved. No amount of subjective "she really wanted it, or why did she dress like that" or the sort changes anything. Going forward with someone who says no is simply a no-no.

 

The circumstances of Rand-Aviendha were different in that Rand did not voice any protests, or express such a sentiment. That he had second thoughts afterwards is of course irrelevant.

 

It is not necessary for Mat to kill Tylin and be hanged to morally avoid having sex with her. It is not necessary for him to get locked up and starved for until he accedes to her wishes to avoid sex with her. It is not up to the victim to change their legitimate actions in order to avoid sex for it not to be rape. This is the same as saying if a girl walks alone out at night, she wants to have sex with anyone who forces his way, because she could have avoided walking out at night since she knew it was a good way to get raped. Her to walk outside alone at night in this instance is unwise of her, but if she is raped, she is still raped. Of course in Altara, where a woman killing a man is justified unless proven otherwise, laws run differently.

[Thor]

 

Everyone keeps saying that if it were a King and a servant girl in this scenario the it would be called rape. You're right. But that's like saying if the Sun were the Moon then it would be daytime at night. Or something to that effect. You know what I mean!!

 

 

 

that is the best thing i've read for a while. really good stuff.

[Ashaman Kovan]

 

Everyone keeps saying that if it were a King and a servant girl in this scenario the it would be called rape. You're right. But that's like saying if the Sun were the Moon then it would be daytime at night. Or something to that effect. You know what I mean!!

 

 

 

that is the best thing i've read for a while. really good stuff.

 

Thanks. I do my best.

[Graendals favourite]

You know, I do understand this sentiment, I just think the reality doesn't live up to the fantasy there. But it is my opinion, and I am not about to start preaching moral behaviour or some proper conduct of life here.  ;)

[Mr Ares]

Forcing a man to have sex, under weapon treath. Forcing him to have sex and dont lissen to a clear NO. Using her whole staff to hold him there, and treath him if he goes away from her. Making jokes about him, showing it to all.

 

Well....read this instead:

Forcing a WOMAN to have sex, under weapon treath. Forcing HER to have sex and dont lissen to a clear NO. Using HIS whole staff to hold HER there, and treath HER if SHE goes away from HIM. Making jokes about HER, showing it to all.

 

Witch one is a clear rape to you?

I think that even if it had been that way round, at least some people would still be saying it wasn't rape, on the same grounds as they are providing for it being Mat. This woman is a skilled fighter, she acted like she was playing hard to get, she never actually said no, she could have left if she wanted to, etc., etc. The case put forward amounts to "if Mat didn't want it he wouldn't have taken it." You don't think that some people would still see it the same way if all you changed was the sex of the participants? Including the people who don't think Morgase was raped?

[Gentled Ben]

Yup, that's why I dropped out of the conversation.

[Elgee]

To decide whether or not this was rape, you need to consider 2 very important facts (apart from Serenla's excellent comments about rape victims).

 

1) Mat's character. Several times in the books Mat mentions his chasing after women. Always willing tavern wenches and the like. He also specifically mentions several times that he knows when they're willing. Not they TELL him they're willing, but he KNOWS. That indicates that most of his bedmates have not actually run up to him and said "take me take me", non? Mat is also childish, irresponsible, unwilling to do his duty, and totally irreverent towards women. They're either brainless noblewomen or bratty princesses or snooty Aes Sedai, or willing common girls. He'll pinch their bottoms and try to get any of them into bed, if they show the least hint of willingness. Never has there been any indication that he would "do what he's told" by anyone, if he didn't REALLY want to. Not want to disappoint the girls? Afraid of being clapped in chains? Come OFF it! This is MAT we're talking about!

 

Now, consider Tylin to in some way be a female version of Mat, in her predatory sexual manner. She would also know when someone was seriously not interested, as opposed to playing coy or, not wanting to be thought TOO easy, or ... a bit taken off guard by someone employing his own tactics.

 

Keep in mind that Tylin did not use her knife to force Mat to have sex with her, she only used it when he tried to manhandle her. She comes from a culture where women are the sexual INITIATORS (I used that term instead of "aggressor", which could have a negative conotation). Mat is a man who's used to being the initiator. THAT is his complaint! Not that he did not want to have sex with her, but the fact that SHE initiated it, not him (he POV'ed before then that he found her attractive, but the fact that she was a queen that put him off). Why does he prefer the "common" women to noblewomen? Maybe because they're more inclined towards one night stands rather than any type of serious relationship? He wasn't exactly overjoyed at the Aiel girl who took up with him either, was he? He kept plotting to get away from her too.

 

Serenla has quoted his reaction right after the act, but there are numerous POV's of his that make it clear that he enjoys having sex with Tylin, doesn't actually mind the games they play, considers hiding from the women sent to find him, but what the heck he didn't have anything pressing to do at that time. Hardly the POV of a man who's being raped, is it?

 

Which brings me to my second, and most important point:

 

2) The author of this book. Do you REALLY think RJ would have written about rape in such a casual matter? REALLY??

 

[Serenla]

To Elgee,

 

I agree whole heartedly!  I think the problem in this debate is that people are generalizing so much. 

 

Excellent point about RJ and his writing.  No where else in the WOT has RJ been flippant about a serious situation, that is proof enough to me that he wouldn't have done so about rape.

 

I have read over Mat's POV's thirty times at least (he's my favorite), and nowhere have I seen any indication that he made it clear to Tylin that her advances were against Mat's wishes.  If anyone has the time, can they point me in the direction of these passages with their interpretation of them?  I would very much like to understand why people feel that Mat was raped and am obviously completely missing it.

[Shard]

I don't know anymore, sometimes RJ IS vague. I had no idea that Morgase had been raped or any sexual interactions until Valda said he rode her. Even then I wasn't sure if he was just taunting Galad at the time. I also didn't realise that Carrdin was the on those DF's were drowning in brandy either. Sometimes these things can just slip by.

 

Still if Mat WAS raped you would think that it would be dealt with more at least from Mat's own PoV. I don't suppose we'll ever had an answer even if RJ was able to say yes or no there would still probably be arguements.

[Hallow]

Tbh the whole Morgase and Valda thing wasnt very vague, you had an entire chapter with Morgase as the PoV where the only thing she thought about was how she wasnt comfortable with a man touching her after the "incident". Not too hard to figure out.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

He'll pinch their bottoms and try to get any of them into bed, if they show the least hint of willingness. Never has there been any indication that he would "do what he's told" by anyone, if he didn't REALLY want to.

I don't think Mat ever pinched a bottom.  Also, he would never force a woman into sex.  Here is a quote which demonstrates that:

He had given jewelry to other women, Maidens and others; he liked giving things to pretty women, even if all he got in return was a smile. He never expected more. If a woman did not enjoy a kiss and a cuddle as much as he did, what was the point?

 

 

Excellent point about RJ and his writing.  No where else in the WOT has RJ been flippant about a serious situation, that is proof enough to me that he wouldn't have done so about rape.

It isn't a serious situation.  Mat isn't in danger and only his pride is hurt, which is actually kind of funny.  That doesn't change the fact that he was raped.

 

I have read over Mat's POV's thirty times at least (he's my favorite), and nowhere have I seen any indication that he made it clear to Tylin that her advances were against Mat's wishes.

Really.  It happens immediately before they have sex for the first time:

Why would she bring him . . . ? His face was suddenly as crimson as the bedpost. No. She could not mean to . . . It was not decent! It was not possible!

 

“You can’t do this to me,” he mumbled at her, and if his voice was a touch breathy and shrill, he surely had cause.

 

“Watch and learn, my kitten,” Tylin said, and drew her marriage knife.