Logain's Glory & Power to come

[Mr Ares]

Female channelers restored by the DO have less than full strength, yet male channelers are completely restored.

A female channeler. We do not know that Cyndane would be representative of femal transmigration. We also do not know if it was Shai'tan who Healed her from her severed state. Shai'tan uses TP, not saidar. And even if "He" did turn out to be a She, it would make no difference, as Rand doesn't plan to kill Shai'tan, he plans to seal the Bore.

[Gentled Ben]

To say glory greater than most men can even dream of implies something really impressive.  She saw the crown around Darlin's head and said

 

"Meh, he'll be a king"

 

I think Logain's stepping over Rand is symbolic of him taking over Rand's various duties one he's 'Dead'

(ie. King of the World n' such)

 

Also, I don't think the Tower's will be united at the end of the 14th book.  Sanderson has said (I believe) that the story will end with Tar'mon Ninja Gaiden and there was a foretelling that went something like...

 

"the great battle over, but the world not done with battles, the Servents vs. the Gaurdians" etc. etc. Great battle being Tarmon, Servants v. Gaurdians is Aes Sedai v. Asha'man.  So I would guess that would be one of the unresolved issues that might never see a written conclusion.

 

JD,

Mostly here, though sometimes there.

It says the servants are balanced by the guardians, not opposed by them.

[Justen Diablos]

To say glory greater than most men can even dream of implies something really impressive.  She saw the crown around Darlin's head and said

 

"Meh, he'll be a king"

 

I think Logain's stepping over Rand is symbolic of him taking over Rand's various duties one he's 'Dead'

(ie. King of the World n' such)

 

Also, I don't think the Tower's will be united at the end of the 14th book.  Sanderson has said (I believe) that the story will end with Tar'mon Ninja Gaiden and there was a foretelling that went something like...

 

"the great battle over, but the world not done with battles, the Servents vs. the Gaurdians" etc. etc. Great battle being Tarmon, Servants v. Gaurdians is Aes Sedai v. Asha'man.  So I would guess that would be one of the unresolved issues that might never see a written conclusion.

 

JD,

Mostly here, though sometimes there.

It says the servants are balanced by the guardians, not opposed by them.

 

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

It says Elayne, Avi, and Min are alive as of Tarmon and that Rand is dead, but still lives (somehow).  Tarmon is over, but the worlds still got some stuff to resolve. 

 

That's why I assume Logain is the man to step into Rand's shoe's as the leader of the Coalition he's built, hence the glory, while Rand is off not being dead but not really being alive kind of thing. 

 

And yes, it does say balance, I just assumed they were still squared off in confrontation due to the context of the foretelling.  World not done with battles implies more fighting to come, and then it immediately rattles off two situations where such would be the case.  The return devides the land, so the Seanchan have half of the world kind of under their control and you know what? Don't think that really the rest of the nations would be all that happy about it.  Also given what we know about 3000 years of accumulated Aes Sedai feelings toward men who can channel and the fact that those girls rarely (if ever) change their mind, I'm guessing they've got a bit of animosity towards those BT boys.  That's how I've taken that foretelling.

 

Also I don't think Sanderson will clear either the Seanchan issue up, or the BT/WT war.  He said the last book will resolve Tarmon Gai'den, and there will still be issues going forward after that someone may or may not resolve in future books.  Unless of course after the DO is bound back the Seanchan can be wrapped up in an epilogue.

 

"Oh by the by we're heading back to our land, dueces everyone."

 

JD

[Gentled Ben]

I think you've taken the Foretelling wrong and that there will be no war between the towers. They aren't fighting now, so why would they fight over the Seanchan? In fact, I don't think there will be any towers by the end of the series. The Black Tower still needs to be rent in fire and blood, and I doubt if the White Tower will survive the Seanchan attack. If it does, my money says that Dragonmount erupts and buries it by story's end. At any rate, there's nothing in that Foretelling to indicate that the Aes Sedai and Asha'man will fight.

[Justen Diablos]

Not fighting with the Seanchan.  rather two seperate battles taking place after Tarmon. 

 

One, the Seanchan v. the rest of Randland.  and a second confrontation between what's left of the Aes Sedai and what's left of the Black Tower.  Hence the World not being done with battles. 

 

The reason they're not fighting now is because of chaos within the Aes Sedai, and a desire not to start fighting the Asha'man until after Tarmon, hence the truces (which are both stopgap agreements until after the Great Battle).  Almost every PoV from Aes Sedai on the Black Tower contains loathing and a desire to whipe them out.  The second the DO is taken from the page as a possible enemy the Aes Sedai and Asha'men seperate and begin to face off.  It simply seems too much of a stretch to expect these two groups of people to co-exist peacefully after so much animosity for so long.

 

The Seanchan will be similar, once Tarmon is over, the stopgap truce Rand will have negotiated uniting the East and the North with the West and the South will be done, and all hell shall break loose.

 

JD

[Gentled Ben]

Yeah, I'm sure there'll be war with the Seanchan, but I don't see the Aes Sedai and Asha'man slugging it out. For one thing, both institutions will need to continue to fight together against the Seanchan lest they all be leashed. By the time they finish that, I think most lingering doubts about the other will be gone on both sides, to be replaced  by mutual respect even if it's a bit uneasy. For another, the Taint has been cleansed, and furthermore, we see the Red Ajah itself making overtures to them and bonding them as Warders.

 

Elaida is not likely to lead the Aes Sedai at the end of the story, and Egwene, her obvious successor, is not likely to fight the Asha'man, especially seeing as the rebel Aes Sedai knwo that the Taint is cleansed. Logain is not overly hostile to the Aes Sedai, and he seems destined to lead the Asha'man. That would make the leader of each institution a moderate, and it will further serve to bridge the gap between the two sides.

[Titan Orion]

I wonder if Rand and Moridin switch bodies, and then somehow Moridin maybe steals Logains. The reason I think this is because of teh viewing of Logain stepping over Rand-that-isnt-Rand, while laughing maniacally.

 

I also wonder about the viewing of a funeral thing being built, and it being important that the person not die, but its being built and Narishma is stood holding Callandor. I wonder if this is Rand preparing to attack Moridin through the link somehow

[Tel Janin]

Here's my wild theory on Logain's "Glory & power to come."

 

Rand, with Alivia's help (and likely Logain's knowledge), fakes his death in such a way that even his women are convinced he's dead (hence, the whole Alivia helping Rand to die, and Logain stepping over Rand's body, which looks hollow thing).  The world proclaims Logain to be the Dragon Reborn, and Logain leads the forces of Light 'gainst the Shadow.

 

Meanwhile, Rand 'walks the earth' as a blind beggar (references to the Fisher linking this loosely with the Fisher King Arthurian legend, as RJ has been wont to do throughout the series), surrepticiously traveling to Shayol Ghul and having his confrontation with the Dark One (or perhaps leading a second Strike on Shayol Ghul with his friends).

 

Of course this is just a gut theory and I have no evidence that it's the One.

;D

[MatsLuck]

If both towers are destroyed in the coming book it would leave room for one tower to be built with both halves of the true source. It would certainly make a good beginning to a new age, a symbol for the next few thousand years and likely an instant dispelling of fear for male channelers. So "the Tower" could work, or simply Tar Valon if they don't want to be creative after all that.

I like that. Maybe the Rand al'Thor Memorial Tower? They should put it on Dragonmount so the whole world can see it. 

I am not yet convinced of Taim being a darkfriend.

Seriously dude? He ordered the hit on Rand al...

It will not happen. The idea that the genders could mix given the three thousand years of established seperation is impossible. Aes Sedai will not abandon everything they are--and this would involve that, since their laws and practises are so based on feminine values--and men would not subjugate themselves into the White Tower. The complexities are too large to be overcome.

 

The best that will happen is alliance between the White and Black Towers.

They are already merging. All this bonding stuff is not going to just go away after TG. And...

For one thing, both institutions will need to continue to fight together against the Seanchan lest they all be leashed.

Bingo. They will have to work together, be forced to trust each other. And maybe one day these adults will say hey, maybe that guy in the black coat isn't so bad after all, and maybe those women in the shawls are ok. I think there will be plenty of protecting coming from the Asha'man (Guardians) and healing coming from the Aes Sedai (Servants) and as they depend on each other, they will naturally come together. Its just human nature. After surviving the worlds most desperate fight in an age, and war with the Seanchan they will be bonded in more ways than one. And they'll be tired ;)

and Egwene, her obvious successor, is not likely to fight the Asha'man,

"'You know you don't want bloodshed, Egwene.' That she did not."  Mat and Egwene in Salidar. Direct reference to her stance on the issue. Only with no choice.

I think that Rand's victory over the Dark One in Tarmon Gai'don will be, as Cadsuane fears, almost as bad for the world as a defeat. In other words, after winning Tarmon Gai'don, a completely insane Rand will attempt another Breaking, or worse. Logain will be foremost in defeating Rand in his madness. Logain will receive his glory for saving the world from the Dragon Reborn.

The question then is, is the "Rand" he kills really Rand or Ishy (One pissed of Ishy)

Tar'mon Ninja Gaiden

Best nickname ever

 

I do believe one way or another, real death, fake death, swap, whatever, that Logain is going to step into Rand's spot as top male channeler, whatever that means, for the new age. However it goes down, I think Rand will like the idea of the world thinking he's gone, and they won't miss him either. Sad to say, but the world tends to be pretty cold-hearted about these things. He will have some fans among the common folk and what not, stories told and the like, but the rulers will be happy to say thanks and goodbye now. I don't know that Logain will be remembered as Dragon...I kinda think the point will be for people to forget, they don't want to remember. Logain, after some time, will just naturally be the most prominent guy from that time, and will kind of ease into being credited for it. I.E. Logain led the forces of good in the big battle. The messy little details will find their way out of the histories after awhile. And Rand goes for his boat ride into the sunset. End scene 

[lordofsoup]

sounds like king arthur

[mb]

I am not yet convinced of Taim being a darkfriend.

Seriously dude? He ordered the hit on Rand al...

Darkfriends are not the only ones that have attempted to kill Rand.

And ordering darkfriends does not necessarily mean that Taim is one; it could be possible that he is using them to achieve his own goals.

 

[Thor]

you are mistaken.  only darkfriends have been trying to kill rand.

 

elaida never ordered to have rand killed, only captured.  same with seanchan, they only want to make him serve them.  no one on the light side has tried to kill rand, use him, capture him, control him maybe, but not kill.

[Hybrid]

no one on the light side has tried to kill rand, use him, capture him, control him maybe, but not kill.

Pedron Niall - the whole "let a lion run rabid in the streets then put it down" plan.  And Niall was assuredly on the Light side, if such a side can be said to exist.

[mb]

you are mistaken.  only darkfriends have been trying to kill rand.

 

elaida never ordered to have rand killed, only captured.  same with seanchan, they only want to make him serve them.  no one on the light side has tried to kill rand, use him, capture him, control him maybe, but not kill.

Actually, there was a Whitecloak attack on Rand. (Lord of Chaos Chapter 26)

Fain also has tried to kill Rand; each time long after his merge with Mordeth.  Fain I would consider as an ex-darkfriend.

 

And like another poster pointed, Pedron Niall wanted Rand dead.

 

It seems that Masema might soon become another one.

 

[MatsLuck]

Nial thought he was saving the world by killing Rand, I don't think the same can be said for Taim.

[Hybrid]

Nial thought he was saving the world by killing Rand, I don't think the same can be said for Taim.

You implied that since Taim ordered the hit on Rand, he was a Darkfriend.  So we provided examples of why one does not lead to the other.  Motivation had nothing to do with your original point. 

 

But while we're on the topic of motivation, Taim could merely have been ambitious.  Doesn't mean he's a Darkfriend, though.  In fact, when there's a POV from Kisman (?), he mentions that it is strange that Taim does not seem to know the kill order from Demandred.  So that much is explanable.

 

I do think he's a Darkfriend, but because of "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" as well as a few other inconsistencies and suspicious behavior.  NOT because he merely wanted Rand dead.

[MatsLuck]

You implied that since Taim ordered the hit on Rand, he was a Darkfriend.  So we provided examples of why one does not lead to the other.  Motivation had nothing to do with your original point.

Yes, I did imply that. That Taim ordering a hit makes him dark. Not anyone trying to kill Rand, Taim. Because in Taim's case it is outright treachery. The Nial comparison is apples and oranges, which is what I was pointing out. I wouldn't count the various High Lords who wanted him dead either, because I don't think Rand or we as readers were ever led to believe that they were ever really on his side.

 

That being said, I agree. That is not enough to make Taim a darkfriend. I was being deliberately understated, trying to have a little fun with mb, because I noticed him expressing this view on other posts as well. And I respect someone who doesn't back down, but I was kind of like...dude, come on. I purposely didn't mention the

 

~fact that he uttered the Lord of Chaos line you mentioned

 

~fact that his palace is dressed in red and black

 

~fact that one of his assassins is a known darky

 

~fact that he knew "gateway"="traveling" without being told (that's from the podcast, don't know if its true)

 

~fact that he knows how to test men for channeling, seems a pretty obscure thing to come up with on your own

 

~fact that he shows up with a DO seal, lucky find for him, yes? One of 3 or 4 left at the time in the entire world.  A gift that would immediately ingratiate him to Rand while at the same time making him seem trustworthy. Pretty convenient.

 

~fact that he kills the gray man (? or some assassin I don't remember) before Rand can question him

 

~fact that LTT has gone bonkers about him since day one

 

There may be more, probably are. None of these is a smoking gun by itself, but as Siuan says, "When there are fish heads and blood in the water, you don't need to see the silverpike to know they are there." I'd say if Taim isn't dark, he's the biggest red herring in the entire series, and I'm not buying it.

 

[Thor]

i believe taim is a darkfriend, but your point about his little sanctum being black and red is simply ridiculous.

 

so if i wear black and red i become a darkfriend too?

[OptimusPrime]

i believe taim is a darkfriend, but your point about his little sanctum being black and red is simply ridiculous.

 

so if i wear black and red i become a darkfriend too?

 

No but if you know too much about the Power, act the way Taim does, order known Darkriends to kill the saviour of the Light just like two other Chosen including Moridin, and then create a sanctum in colors that just happen to match Moridins, then your colors are just yet another finger pointing at Taim being a darkfriend.

[Thor]

whatever, he is a darkfriend, but coloyr's got nothing to do with anything.

[OptimusPrime]

They might if the coloring is yet another coincedence involving Taim and other big Shadow players, which it is, so I'd say its worth remembering..

[mb]

~fact that he uttered the Lord of Chaos line you mentioned

 

~fact that his palace is dressed in red and black

 

~fact that one of his assassins is a known darky

 

~fact that he knew "gateway"="traveling" without being told (that's from the podcast, don't know if its true)

 

~fact that he knows how to test men for channeling, seems a pretty obscure thing to come up with on your own

 

~fact that he shows up with a DO seal, lucky find for him, yes? One of 3 or 4 left at the time in the entire world.  A gift that would immediately ingratiate him to Rand while at the same time making him seem trustworthy. Pretty convenient.

 

~fact that he kills the gray man (? or some assassin I don't remember) before Rand can question him

 

~fact that LTT has gone bonkers about him since day one

All of those are just circumstantial, none of them prove.

 

The 'lord of chaos' phrase might have been coined from the Feast of Fools holiday.  Or Taim might have heard it from someone in his faction.

And the laughter would not necessarily be about the phrase.  The knowledge of bonded Ashaman might have been a reason of the laughter since bonding was the topic in the passage.

 

Taim telling of Traveling was in a later meeting with Rand, there might have been a chance that Taim read about it in a book in between.

 

Again, ordering darkfriends does not necessarily make someone a darkfriend regardless of the orders given.

 

Seal, Taim's explanation could be reasonable and might likely be true.

 

Lews Therin has wanted every Ashaman dead from the beginning, not just Taim.  And Lews Therin was/is insane.

 

Clothing (and other decorations) does not make someone a darkfriend; regardless if it matches a Forsaken or not.

 

There might have been a chance that Taim discovered a test for channeling.  Unlikely, yes; yet it is possible.

It seems obvious that at least one person discovered the test and passed that knowledge to others; otherwise the channelers during the Age of Legends would not have had the knowledge.  What is discovered once can be discovered again.

 

[Phariah]

personally i love Taim ;D

devious , sinister , intelligent .... almost a better Forsaken than the Chosen themselves  8)

i definately feel he is a Darkfriend future Dreadlord for same reasons that have been stated and also for the reason that Black Ajah went to rescue him on his way to the White Tower ( which he never states to Rand an says that his followers saved him ). So either they coerced him to become  dark friend or they did the 13 fade 13 channeler method to turn him to the Shadow. he is in a perfect position to recruit more channelers for the shadow now.  ;)

the fearsome foursome were his top cronies for awhile , and they were all darkfriends, just coincidence i guess. ::)

[OptimusPrime]

The 'lord of chaos' phrase might have been coined from the Feast of Fools holiday.  Or Taim might have heard it from someone in his faction.

And the laughter would not necessarily be about the phrase.  The knowledge of bonded Ashaman might have been a reason of the laughter since bonding was the topic in the passage

 

If you look in the books, this is a very small thing but it counts. When Taim said that line, he didnt say "let the lord of chaos rule" like in the non-Dark One saying. He said "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." It had capitals, and that counts. the fact that the fifty(ish) Ashaman laughed could be coincedence, depending if coincedence is made of elastic. Nothing about the kids saying would be funny at that time; the Ashaman laughed because Taim just told the Aes Sedai the Dark Ones most top secret order. Thats what theyre laughing at.

 

Explaining each one of those points seperately is fine but when they are all together the list becomes way too coincedential for it not to mean something, not with the way Taim acts.

[Thor]

at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter if taim is a darkfriend or not (but he is).  he's a bad guy, who needs to be taken out.