Best fighter in WoT without OP

[FootstepsofDeath]

So who do you think is the pound for pound best fighter in WoT when they're not using the One Power. There are several candidates for this....whether it be blademasters or Aiel or whatever.

 

Lan Mandragoran. He's obviously one of the best. He beat Ryne in NS, who was even better than Lan himself. He's beaten Toram Riatin as well, and was Rand's first and only teacher, which has obviously helped Rand considerably. He has tons of experience against shadowspawn.

 

Then of course you have Rand, who is dangerous with his hands as well as his sword, as seen in the Lord of Chaos. He beat Turak (who was decent, even though Rand had the help of the void) with a relatively small amount of training. In LoC he practices against the best he can find and usually wipes the floor with them. He has killed tons of shadowspawn.

 

Can't forget Galad. He beat around all of the students training with the Warders at the White Tower with relative ease. Gawyn, who is a good fighter in his own right, admits that Galad is better than him a few times. Galad's also got some of Rand's blood in his veins, and I think he and Rand are natural warriors because of that bloodline. He also beat Valda, who was probably better than him, but just got cocky.

 

Then there's Mat. Mat's obviously something special for various reasons. He's got all those memories of endless amounts of battles, no doubt giving him skill. He was great with a spear to begin with before those memories. He kills shadowspawn with ease (with the exception of maybe Fades, which he overwhelms with his speed) and killed Couladin in FoH, who I presume is one of the more skilled Aiel. And of course, you can't forget when he beats Gawyn and Galad while he's sick...though that can be debatable beacuse they may have been underestimating him.

 

Other people you might consider are Perrin, Rhuarc (and pretty much any of the Aiel clan chiefs), Jearom, or anyone else you can think of. Discuss.

 

 

[mb]

Best non-channeling fighter, that would be difficult to narrow down.

To me it would be one who can handle multiple 'enemies' at once; Rand & Jearom & Souran are the only ones the books tell, just Rand we seen in action.

 

[FootstepsofDeath]

Best non-channeling fighter, that would be difficult to narrow down.

To me it would be one who can handle multiple 'enemies' at once; Rand & Jearom & Souran are the only ones the books tell, just Rand we seen in action.

 

 

I believe Lan beats up to five swordsmen on his own in NS. Mat also takes out multiple enemies on various occasions. And I'm pretty sure we've seen many fighters kill various trollocs in a row during battle.

[Thor]

Lan and Mat are both definitely better fighters than Rand.  Galad is probably about the same as Rand.

 

Perrin's skills are really quite undocumented since every time he fights, we just get "wolf attacks hamstring, bites, howls, blah blah, NEVERBORN!!1111" and not actually any comment about enemy strength or weaknesses. 

 

But considering how he managed to whack the aiel (sorry i forgot his name, poor fellow)'s head off while rescuing Faile before the Aiel had time to react, it can be assumed that he is not only big and strong, but also fast.  That spells a lethal combination.

 

But it seems the archery prize is going to go to the old pas al'thor and cauthon.

[White_star]

I think ANY clan chief ,or any Aiel that has been a warrior for a long time, are in a league all their own.  The fact that they are still alive proves they are good.

 

As for the non-Aiel, it is difficult to place some of them since not everyone has a clear record of what they can do. I would say the top five fighters are (in order):

 

1. Lan - He learned from the best; has the most experience; is a blademaster; has been fighting the shadow before he was old enough to shave. I'm sure there are other reasons.

 

2. Rand - He also learned from the best between Tam, Lan and Rhurac. He is not only a blademaster but he is also very skilled at archery, hand & feet fighting, and maybe the Aiel spear.  He is very good at using "the flame and the void" skill Tam taught him (it doesn't have to be used for channeling, Lan uses something like it too).  He also has LLT's non-channeling fighting experience to draw on.  He is a fast learner and fast physically.  If anyone thinks loosing a hand is going to make him any less dangerous they are sadly underestimating him.  His only real problem is that he gets distracted if a woman were to scream like a damsel in distress.

 

3. Mat - As was mentioned, he has the experiences of those generals, and he has natural talent with the quarterstaff; he is also very quick.  He is very good at controlling his emotions, he has gone toe to toe with Couladin.

 

4. Galad - I think he is a blademaster, it is unclear what else he can do however.

 

5. Perrin - I don't think he is as fast as Mat or Rand but he can also use a hammer with efficiency and he has a lot of experience fighting a lot of Aiel but never one on one combat with them.  It is unclear if he is good at controlling his emotions*.

 

 

 

Some other excellent fighters are: Tam, Loial(do non-humans count?), Uno, Bayle Domon, and I guess Gawyn (he may be a great swordsman but he is NOT good at controlling his emotions*.)

 

 

*uncontrolled emotions can lead to fatal mistakes as Turak demonstrated.

[DemandredFO]

As much as it pains me to say anything good about Perrin, I think Perrin is a better general than a fighter but it all hinges on his emotions.  He seems to be a berserker to me, he seems to bounce from one extreme to the other; at the beginning of WOT he ponders everything too long, now he's a berserker, if Faile ever sorts him out he'll be very good.  Note:  Even though I said good things about Perrin I still hate his guts, Happy New Year.

[DhaiMon]

 

 

4. Galad - I think he is a blademaster, it is unclear what else he can do however.

 

Well...if I remember correctly, he took on a whole mob of Masema's men all on his own and survived in TFoH...not very skilled fighters, true, but Galad didn't even have a scratch afterward if I am not mistaken, while the mob was dead and dying on the ground.

So, as far as the crowd-control criteria goes, I would see him somewhere at the very top from what was shown in the books so far.

 

I am still curious about the clan chiefs proving their worth on stage, and whether Ituralde is as great a fighter as he is a general.

[bad company]

I would say from individual fight I would say my personal favorite would be galad beating valda, taking into consideration that galad knew he was outclassed and used his wits to win the fight, and that he got hit so often and took it because of the overall plan.

 

However best fighter I would say Lan. Both for his work in NS and that the aiel recognise his skill as well, and to be recognised for your skill be the aiel you have to be pretty good

[Cockta]

I would pick Fain as the best swordsman in WoT.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No I wouldn't.

[bad company]

Especially since he doesn't use a sword

[General Cauthon]

I think ANY clan chief ,or any Aiel that has been a warrior for a long time, are in a league all their own.  The fact that they are still alive proves they are good.

 

Couladin was both, but Mat still killed him.

 

1. Lan - He learned from the best; has the most experience; is a blademaster; has been fighting the shadow before he was old enough to shave. I'm sure there are other reasons.

 

I agree. Lan would probably be the best fighter alive in a duel.

 

2. Rand - He also learned from the best between Tam, Lan and Rhurac. He is not only a blademaster but he is also very skilled at archery, hand & feet fighting, and maybe the Aiel spear.  He is very good at using "the flame and the void" skill Tam taught him (it doesn't have to be used for channeling, Lan uses something like it too).  He also has LLT's non-channeling fighting experience to draw on.  He is a fast learner and fast physically.  If anyone thinks loosing a hand is going to make him any less dangerous they are sadly underestimating him.  His only real problem is that he gets distracted if a woman were to scream like a damsel in distress.

 

Rand is a Blademaster, but he himself said that he would need to learn to fight with a sword all over again after losing his hand. He has no experience fighting with only one hand. As it is, Rand probably would have lost against most of the Maidens in his bodyguard. He may have been nr. 2, but he no longer is.

 

3. Mat - As was mentioned, he has the experiences of those generals, and he has natural talent with the quarterstaff; he is also very quick.  He is very good at controlling his emotions, he has gone toe to toe with Couladin.

 

And the fight in Maderin proves that he don't need a quarterstaff/ashandrei to kill alot of people.

 

4. Galad - I think he is a blademaster, it is unclear what else he can do however.

 

Galad became a Blademaster when he defeated Valda.

 

5. Perrin - I don't think he is as fast as Mat or Rand but he can also use a hammer with efficiency and he has a lot of experience fighting a lot of Aiel but never one on one combat with them.  It is unclear if he is good at controlling his emotions*.

 

Aram wiped the floor with Perrin, so it's unlikely that Perrin would stand a chance against any of the Blademasters.

 

*uncontrolled emotions can lead to fatal mistakes as Turak demonstrated.

 

Turak died because he underestimated Rand. Just as the fight between Galad and Valda; Valda underestimated Galad and was caught off guard when Galad makes his move.

 

Some other excellent fighters are: Tam, Loial(do non-humans count?), Uno, Bayle Domon, and I guess Gawyn

 

Tam is probably a Blademaster (I don't think he just found the sword of his), Gawyn could be, if any of the Warders he killed was one. He probably is skilled enough already.

But Loial hardly has any training or experience; any of the Seanchan Gardeners could probably kill him without breathing hard.

Uno is an experienced soldier, but there is nothing that suggest that he is an excellent fighter.

Domon is a smuggler, he would stand chance against any of the other that's been mentioned.

[DhaiMon]

Tam is probably a Blademaster (I don't think he just found the sword of his), Gawyn could be, if any of the Warders he killed was one. He probably is skilled enough already.

A Blademaster grown old and not really used to the sword anymore, it would seem...remember TEotW when Narg and crew show up at his home?

I would not put that much significance into the Blademaster-title. Al'Thor, then a farmboy upstart, killed Turak without truly employing the One Power; Cauthon shamed two as-good-as Blademasters, Gawyn and Galad; Gawyn took out Warders that do not need a fancy title to be called dangerous, and al'Mandragoran himself was never officially named Blademaster, now was he?

In other words, I think that "Blademaster" in the end can be seen as a fancy title that might or might not speak of the title-bearer's superiority in combat. It certainly doesn't grant invulnerability.

 

But Loial hardly has any training or experience; any of the Seanchan Gardeners could probably kill him without breathing hard.

He seems to have strength, though, more strength than an inhumanly strong Trolloc at least, as can be seen in TGH. And since those under-cover 'locs mostly seem to be of the stronger clans, that surely can't be dismissed. We also do not know how well he performs during the zerg-style Trolloc rush at the mansion.

Of the Ogier Gardeners we haven't seen too much so far...they, as well, still owe us a show of their martial prowess.

[the_Genghis_Khan]

There are some good points about Aram besting Perrin and about the Gardners.  Aram did have a superior weapon though for 1 on 1 combat.  As far as the Gardners are concerned, take Loial and give him hundreds of years to learn how to use his great axe.  That seems quite fearsome to me!

 

In rough gorilla estimations:

1. Lan

2. Clan chiefs

3. Mat (good w/ multiple weapon types)

4. Rand w/ 2 hands

5. Galad

6. Gawyn

7. Aram

8. Perrin

9. Rand w/ 1 hand

 

Much like the Aram example of having a superior weapon, Mat could probably take everyone on this list due expertise with his ashandrei and he is also very fast and skilled in knife fighting.  All around though, Lan and the clan chiefs will be ultimately superior to anyone on this list. :-\

[FootstepsofDeath]

Tam is probably a Blademaster (I don't think he just found the sword of his), Gawyn could be, if any of the Warders he killed was one. He probably is skilled enough already.

A Blademaster grown old and not really used to the sword anymore, it would seem...remember TEotW when Narg and crew show up at his home?

I would not put that much significance into the Blademaster-title. Al'Thor, then a farmboy upstart, killed Turak without truly employing the One Power; Cauthon shamed two as-good-as Blademasters, Gawyn and Galad; Gawyn took out Warders that do not need a fancy title to be called dangerous, and al'Mandragoran himself was never officially named Blademaster, now was he?

In other words, I think that "Blademaster" in the end can be seen as a fancy title that might or might not speak of the title-bearer's superiority in combat. It certainly doesn't grant invulnerability.

 

Turak underestimated Rand and by the time he finally started to concentrate and take Rand seriously, Rand was already on the offensive and had him off balance.

 

Gawyn and Galad were not as good as blademasters when they fought Mat, and they underestimated him to boot.

 

I also think there is more to Gawyn beating those warders. It doesn't even show the fight, so I think something else happened. Maybe they were fighting to capture him, and he was fighting to kill. We can't gauge much from those fights if we didn't see them happen. Gawyn also happens to be basically uninjured as we don't see him with any large gashes or limps. Something fishy is going on.

 

I do think some warders have achieved blademaster rank, or almost have, but they never have a formal fight against a blademaster to beat him and take his sword, or they were never evaluated. I imagine it is pretty hard to have that happen, which is why you only see the rich people getting the heron (Toram and Turak) because they have the resources to get everyone together (like the judges or another blademaster) and try for the heron. Lan however, has been busy his whole life being a warder and I don't think he'd trade his Malkieri sword for a heron mark sword anyway.

[FootstepsofDeath]

There are some good points about Aram besting Perrin and about the Gardners.  Aram did have a superior weapon though for 1 on 1 combat.  As far as the Gardners are concerned, take Loial and give him hundreds of years to learn how to use his great axe.  That seems quite fearsome to me!

 

In rough gorilla estimations:

1. Lan

2. Clan chiefs

3. Mat (good w/ multiple weapon types)

4. Rand w/ 2 hands

5. Galad

6. Gawyn

7. Aram

8. Perrin

9. Rand w/ 1 hand

 

Much like the Aram example of having a superior weapon, Mat could probably take everyone on this list due expertise with his ashandrei and he is also very fast and skilled in knife fighting.  All around though, Lan and the clan chiefs will be ultimately superior to anyone on this list. :-\

 

Yeah, that goes hand in hand with the greatest swordsman of all time getting beat by a farmer with a quarterstaff.

[Alderthal]

If we're talking about pure skill at fighting, rather than any other factors, then unfortunately, Perrin and Mat are out. Mat for starters is lucky as hell. You can't determine how that affects his fighting abilities. Not that he doesn't have a LOT of potential, but at what point do we seperate skill from pure luck? Perrin on the other hand, is not only difficult to place (being the only damn axeman in the entire series), but we also don't know how being a wolf brother affects him, though we agree that he's a way better fighter when he's pissed off and/or in full wolf brother mode rather than trying to fight it.

 

So here it goes:-

Lan - Bet on this dude whenever you have a chance. Bet everything, your money, your house, your spouse, and your kids. He's over 50, and he still kicks ass. This while fighting a hopeless war and accepting his death each day.

 

Rand (pre semirhage)

 

Galad and Gawyn - I really don't know how to place those two in order. Galad is said to be better, and he killed Valda, a swordmaster... But Gawyn killed Hammar and Coulin (the two swordmasters for Warders), and even though I don't know if they're blademasters or not, I'd assume Aes Sedai at least would get the best of the best to train their warders.

[Sieve]

I agree that Lan would top the list with Perrin at the bottom and the rest thrown in between.

 

It's funny I was just rereading A Crown of Swords, specifically the encounter with the Black Ajah and the gholam in the Rahad.  Before going into the building which held the Bowl of the Winds Mat tried to give his foxhead medallion to Elayne as an extra measure of protection though she refused.  I was thinking that he should have offered it to Lan.  Anytime Lan has been incapacitated it has been due to the one power.  Imagine Lan with the foxhead medallion...he would be unstoppable as long as none of the channelers thought to drop a boulder on his head.  In that particular encounter he would have wiped the floor with everyone and probably would have shoved the thing down the gholam's throat and killed it. 

[sillyman]

Oh its got to be Lan or Rhuarc because all to often RJ draws a comparison between them and Rand with two hands wouldn't be far behind especially if knowledge and skill is passing from LTT, in the stone of tear one of the forsaken claims he and LTT pioneered the current form of fighting so i imagine LTT was pretty formidable.

 

On a slightly different note i was wondering what everyone thought the reason for the graceful stride of blade masters was.  I always figured it was due to the fact that they learned to use the correct muscle for every movement.

 

[Mr Ares]

There are two main problems with these threads. The first is that we can't really come up with a "best". Aside from the lack of evidence, there is also the simple fact that often these things are highly variable. In any given encounter, things could go either way. Aram was beating Perrin, but Perrin won by virtue of Aram being shot. Lan beat Ryne, although Ryne was the better swordsman. Same with Galad over Valda. Lan could make one mistake and get carved up by some nobody. Hence Alderthal's point about Mat's luck being pretty worthless. Luck is always a factor. So where does luck end and skill begin for any of them?

 

The second problem is that the focus is too small - why the hell don't we just open it up to all fantasy characters? Rand v Kellhus? Lan v Ser Gregor? Mat v the Bloody Nine? Perrin v Ringil? Rhuarc v Rake? Galad v Aragorn? Which one is better? There's only one way to find out - FIGHT!

[lordofsoup]

Rand with 2 hands could have beaten any maiden, but it would never happen cuz if they were really fighting, he would let her kill him.  Dumb bastard with dumb principles

[FootstepsofDeath]

Rand with 2 hands could have beaten any maiden, but it would never happen cuz if they were really fighting, he would let her kill him.  Dumb bastard with dumb principles

 

I agree. His principles were ok for some time, but when he couldn't strike Lanfear DESPITE the fact that everyone was in danger around him, I said "He needs to grow out of this"

[Tyrell]

The second problem is that the focus is too small - why the hell don't we just open it up to all fantasy characters? Rand v Kellhus? Lan v Ser Gregor? Mat v the Bloody Nine? Perrin v Ringil? Rhuarc v Rake? Galad v Aragorn? Which one is better? There's only one way to find out - FIGHT!

 

Richard Rahl

 

*ducks and covers*

 

(lol)

[Celdiruen]

I think it's pretty obvious that Rake wins. Everything. Always. He is too awesome.

 

When having these discussions, we are obviously speculating. I suggest we take luck out of the equation and go by the skills we know the characters have and by what we have been shown. Even taking luck away from Mat, he is still a good fighter with his spear, but not as good as someone like Lan.

 

I think everyone agrees that Lan is at the top. After him it would be a combination of the Clan Chiefs and Rand back when he had 2 hands, and possibly Galad. Below these would be Gawyn, Mat, Aram and Perrin not necessarily in that order. Rand with one hand would most likely come at the end. since he has to completely re-learn the sword.

 

An interesting thought. Was LTT not a great swordsman? If he was and going by that, we may have to put Demandred on this list, but alas, we've never seen him use a sword.

[FootstepsofDeath]

I think it's pretty obvious that Rake wins. Everything. Always. He is too awesome.

 

When having these discussions, we are obviously speculating. I suggest we take luck out of the equation and go by the skills we know the characters have and by what we have been shown. Even taking luck away from Mat, he is still a good fighter with his spear, but not as good as someone like Lan.

 

I think everyone agrees that Lan is at the top. After him it would be a combination of the Clan Chiefs and Rand back when he had 2 hands, and possibly Galad. Below these would be Gawyn, Mat, Aram and Perrin not necessarily in that order. Rand with one hand would most likely come at the end. since he has to completely re-learn the sword.

 

An interesting thought. Was LTT not a great swordsman? If he was and going by that, we may have to put Demandred on this list, but alas, we've never seen him use a sword.

 

That's adding serious insult to injury there. LTT wrote better books, won more battles, and was just a bit stronger in the Power than Demandred. Being a bit better with the sword would just be piling it on there. If Demandred wasn't very obviously an evil baby eating Forsaken, I'd have some pity for him.

 

As for other great swordsmen, many forget Valda. He was better than Galad and Galad was still EXTREMELY good. Chances are he may as been as good as Lan before he died. Be'lal and Sammael were supposed to be pretty good, Be'lal being a blademaster. I heard somewhere that Ishamael was good with a sword, though I can't remember where I heard it.

[DemandredFO]

And of that long list that was cited about(except for Aram, the Gardeners and other seanchan) an unarmed woman intent on killing, could kill all our heroes and then sit down and trim her nails.  What I call it is suicidal chivalry.