Equal yet not

[Mr Ares]

Hey Mik, do you know what the "saa" do?

In the early stages, they float across your vision. In later stages, you get flaming body cavities, a la Ishamael.

 

You stopped looking where he expected everyone to stop looking. Where he knew everyone would stop.

Because that is where he wanted people to stop. Not for some sinister agenda either. You're seeing things where there is nothing to see.

 

The Wheel is the act of control; it is total control.

No, it isn't. It provides freedom within a certain framework, but freedom is still there. Destroying the Wheel destroys time. Shai'tan will not allow anything beyond His control if He can help it.

 

Some ideas ARE rediculous; like your idea that there is nothing to prove Ishamael isnt the Dark One.

I never thought or said Ishamael was Shai'tan. Ishamael is Ba'alzamon was what I said. My point was' date=' is there anything to say that Ba'alzamon was ever, in fact, actually a name for anyone other than Ishy?

until someone proves it wrong indefinitely I will still acknowledge it as a possibility, BECAUSE nothing thats happened in the books has written it off

Is that possible? Is there any standard of proof high enough? Or will any evidence be arguable?

 

Simply because the Watcher must be Ishy-recycled in a new body also' date=' considering the Watchers thoughts.[/quote']And Ishy recycled is Moridin. Therefore Moridin is the Watcher. There is no evidence Moridin and Shaidar Haran are the same. You can wave Slayer around, but it is clear that what happened to Slayer did happen, but nothing at all to indicate that it has happened to Moridin and SH.

Shaidar Haran tells us that the mind has to get used to the new situation after transmigration, but eventually, the mind will bend to the body. The same goes for Ishamaels mind in a Myrddraal body.

Ishamael's mind is in a human body.

How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake, but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful? RJ isn’t referring to Forsaken men only, since he included LTT at the end of the sentence, but on first glance it might look like this.

Yes, he is.

[This suggests that nothing changed in the state of mind because of the transmigration]

Which flies directly in the face of changes due to him being in a Fade body.

Luc was a man before he met Isam in the high passes!

How does that disprove Slayer?

It doesn't. He still is a man.

5. RJ mentioned there was a "Shaidar Haran 0.5" in relation to a chapter in TGH. (pre-Moridin)

I believe that was about the Myrddraal in TDR with an apparent sense of humour.

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

5. Because he can ender a vacuole

It is possible for a human to step outside the Pattern, and there is nothing to say that a vacuole is the only way.

 

Anyway, logically: If the Watcher is Ishamael reborn and Ishamael reborn is Moridin, then the Watcher is Moridin. I don't see anyone (not even Mik) disagreeing with either the first or second parts, therefore no-one should disagree with the third. Watcher was Moridin. End of debate.

[Mik]

You stopped looking where he expected everyone to stop looking. Where he knew everyone would stop.

Because that is where he wanted people to stop. Not for some sinister agenda either. You're seeing things where there is nothing to see.

Who said anything about sinister? Ah yeah, that’s just you setting the tone again. I see beauty in the pattern within the pattern. I love the pictures RJ painted in my mind, regardless if they are right or wrong. Nothing sinister about it.

 

And if I see things where nothing is to be seen, then why don’t you answer these simple questions others seem to have a harder time explaining then they thought at first glance. Help them out?

Prove me seeing things wrong, instead of just attacking my person;

1. How did the Watcher sense Sammael holding the source?

2. How did the Watcher see the difference between Sammael & Grandael linked and Sammael and Graendal holding the source individually? How did the Watcher know Sammael ‘had let the link dissolve’?

3. How did the Watcher follow without making sound? Following two channelers holding the source & thus having heightened senses.

4. Why don’t we see the Watcher stumbling around like Sammael & Graendal? How did he ghost through the trees unhindered?

 

All this makes so much sense if the Watcher isn’t Moridin, but the Nae’blis in Myrddraal-form; Shaidar Haran.

 

The Wheel is the act of control; it is total control.

No' date=' it isn't. It provides freedom within a certain framework, but freedom is still there. Destroying the Wheel destroys time. Shai'tan will not allow anything beyond His control if He can help it. [/quote']Agreed. The Wheel is about a healthy mix of choice versus fate. Shai’tan is about total control, not the Wheel.

 

Simply because the Watcher must be Ishy-recycled in a new body also' date=' considering the Watchers thoughts.[/quote']And Ishy recycled is Moridin. Therefore Moridin is the Watcher. There is no evidence Moridin and Shaidar Haran are the same. You can wave Slayer around, but it is clear that what happened to Slayer did happen, but nothing at all to indicate that it has happened to Moridin and SH.

Well, then I’m sure you have no problem explaining the questions above. I’m just asking you for a reasonable explanation on how the Watcher can be Moridin.

And yes, I can wave Slayer around. And you missed the point; it shows we know Shai’tan can mix two separate beings into one. It’s creates a precedent.

 

Shaidar Haran tells us that the mind has to get used to the new situation after transmigration, but eventually, the mind will bend to the body. The same goes for Ishamaels mind in a Myrddraal body.

Ishamael's mind is in a human body.

That too, yes.

 

How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake, but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful? RJ isn’t referring to Forsaken men only, since he included LTT at the end of the sentence, but on first glance it might look like this.

Yes, he is.

It doesn’t say ‘the second most powerful forsaken (man)’. It says ‘second most powerful man’. LTT was included in the equation. I thought it was common knowledge LTT wasn’t part of the Forsaken?

 

Luc was a man before he met Isam in the high passes!

How does that disprove Slayer?

It doesn't. He still is a man.

”Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.“

 

I doubt what makes the whole that is Slayer, qualifies as a man. But whatever floats your boat.

 

5. RJ mentioned there was a "Shaidar Haran 0.5" in relation to a chapter in TGH. (pre-Moridin)

I believe that was about the Myrddraal in TDR with an apparent sense of humour.

It was. You thought that was news?

Re-read that bit, especially when Sharbon enters Carradins room. He went to buy fruit for Carridin’s ___ (I’ll help you; “guest”.. You think a fade was the guest?)

That fade was Ishamael –somehow linked- right there.

 

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

5. Because he can ender a vacuole

It is possible for a human to step outside the Pattern, and there is nothing to say that a vacuole is the only way.

Examples please? I back up my claims.

 

Anyway, logically: If the Watcher is Ishamael reborn and Ishamael reborn is Moridin, then the Watcher is Moridin. I don't see anyone (not even Mik) disagreeing with either the first or second parts, therefore no-one should disagree with the third. Watcher was Moridin. End of debate.

I agree with it all, except that last line. Perfect logic, untill you say "end of debate". Not the end of the debate if Ishamaels mind inhabits two bodies.

 

Luc reborn is Slayer. Slayer is Luc, end of debate?

 

Just answer those 4 questions, Mr Ares. I’m sure you’ll find it easy to explain the Watcher is Moridin.

 

[lordofsoup]

 

And if I see things where nothing is to be seen, then why don’t you answer these simple questions others seem to have a harder time explaining then they thought at first glance. Help them out?

Prove me seeing things wrong, instead of just attacking my person;

1. How did the Watcher sense Sammael holding the source?

2. How did the Watcher see the difference between Sammael & Grandael linked and Sammael and Graendal holding the source individually? How did the Watcher know Sammael ‘had let the link dissolve’?

3. How did the Watcher follow without making sound? Following two channelers holding the source & thus having heightened senses.

4. Why don’t we see the Watcher stumbling around like Sammael & Graendal? How did he ghost through the trees unhindered?

 

All this makes so much sense if the Watcher isn’t Moridin, but the Nae’blis in Myrddraal-form; Shaidar Haran.

 

 

this debate is clearly solved by rereading the book.  i am not quoting, so bear with me.  the watcher can identify between saiden and saidar, by the chill that he/it feels when sammael and greandel channel, the itches are different.  I am positive that it had to be Shaidar Haran, because what other myddraeyl can channel?

 

it is also not inconsievable that moridin is Haran because fades do not have eyes, as ishmeal did not and moridin probably will not because of his excessive TP use. 

[Thor]

The watcher never felt any chill or shivers or whatever.

 

In fact the watcher directly stated that he could sense Sammuel holding saidin, and that when the twigs snapped (or something caused by the power) and gave Graendal a slick shock, he giggled to himself abit about now she also knows that Sammuel holds the power.

 

He also talked about how over the ages he picked up nice little tricks which other chosen has shun.

 

The watcher was a man, it is almost definitely Morridin/Ishamael because he could hold power without being detected (ie TP).

[ChronoCrosS]

The watcher never felt any chill or shivers or whatever.

 

In fact the watcher directly stated that he could sense Sammuel holding saidin, and that when the twigs snapped (or something caused by the power) and gave Graendal a slick shock, he giggled to himself abit about now she also knows that Sammuel holds the power.

 

He also talked about how over the ages he picked up nice little tricks which other chosen has shun.

 

The watcher was a man, it is almost definitely Morridin/Ishamael because he could hold power without being detected (ie TP).

 

So with the true power, is it drawn directly from/through the Dark Lord? Also do Black Ajah/Forsaken need permission from him in order to channel it? I'm assuming so eh because Moridin is the only one who uses it.

[Majsju]

 

So with the true power, is it drawn directly from/through the Dark Lord? Also do Black Ajah/Forsaken need permission from him in order to channel it? I'm assuming so eh because Moridin is the only one who uses it.

 

Yes, it is drawn directly from the DO, and it requires the DOs permission.

Though that is not the only reason Moridin is the only one seen using it in the books (except later on, as it is mentioned that once he was named Nae'blis, he was the only one allowed to use TP), the other forsaken would think both twice and thrice before even asking, since it does come with consequences.

 

And I strongly doubt (to put it mildly) that a Black Ajah, or anyone not given the forsaken Mark would be allowed to use TP, or even allowed to know it exists.

[Jethro]

Heres an interesting thought. Lews Therin knows the True Power exists. Im sure he mentions it a few times. Not that it makes a difference to anything...

[Thor]

Yes he really should know about it, given that the study of the TP was what released the DO in the first place.

 

And anyways, if Ishamael could use TP and is equal to LTT is strength (and presumably skill considering how all other chosen seem pretty intimidated by him, bar Lanfear perhaps, but then again Lanfear is a freak of nature), how exactly did LTT beat Ishamael?

 

From what we heard, it seemed to have been more or less a fair fight.  LTT won "convincingly", yet Ishamael escaped more or less unscathed (getting a few limbs blown off back then wouldn't count as scathed, he didn't get severed or captured so that's good enough).

 

So anyone can guess?  Or perhaps this is a good tecnique used by RJ to keep people's imagination alive?

[Jethro]

Lews Therin was Ta'veren, its a possibility that might have influenced the event somehow. Maybe Ishamael was under orders to let Lews Therin live, just as that was the case for at least a while, even before Moridin and Rand were connected

[Mr Ares]

I see beauty in the pattern within the pattern.

Whether or not there is a pattern within the pattern.

 

1. How did the Watcher sense Sammael holding the source?

2. How did the Watcher see the difference between Sammael & Grandael linked and Sammael and Graendal holding the source individually? How did the Watcher know Sammael ‘had let the link dissolve’?

3. How did the Watcher follow without making sound? Following two channelers holding the source & thus having heightened senses.

4. Why don’t we see the Watcher stumbling around like Sammael & Graendal? How did he ghost through the trees unhindered?

1. Because men can sense other men holding the Power. 2. We have seen examples of the presence of one half of the Power being inferred by those can only sense one half, because they take note of an absence. Think about it. 3. The Watcher notes they do not even bother to check back to see if any Aiel are following them. Why would he note this if any Aiel following would be automatically detected by heightened senses? It is possible to move through a forest quietly. 4. The Watcher notes Sammael "had never really been at home away from the cities." City boy in the forest will have a harder time than experienced huntsman in the forest. This is easy. Did you really need me to tell you?

 

Simply because the Watcher must be Ishy-recycled in a new body also' date=' considering the Watchers thoughts.[/quote']And Ishy recycled is Moridin. Therefore Moridin is the Watcher. There is no evidence Moridin and Shaidar Haran are the same. You can wave Slayer around, but it is clear that what happened to Slayer did happen, but nothing at all to indicate that it has happened to Moridin and SH.

Well, then I’m sure you have no problem explaining the questions above. I’m just asking you for a reasonable explanation on how the Watcher can be Moridin.

And yes, I can wave Slayer around. And you missed the point; it shows we know Shai’tan can mix two separate beings into one. It’s creates a precedent.

I did not miss the point, boy. But just because RJ has estblished such a thing is possible doesn't mean it has ever happened at any time other than the one we know about. There is nothing to indicate it has happened to Moridin and Shaidar Haran, so why should we believe it has? No reason. And your questions were answered. They weren't even hard to answer. How is it unreasonable that the Watcher is Moridin? It isn't. Also, this isn't Slayer - he was two merged into one. You are proposing one split into two, more or less - Ishy becoming Moridin and SH. Just not at the same time. Which is without precedent.

 

Shaidar Haran tells us that the mind has to get used to the new situation after transmigration, but eventually, the mind will bend to the body. The same goes for Ishamaels mind in a Myrddraal body.

Ishamael's mind is in a human body.

That too, yes.

No, just that. Human body. Nothing else. Unles you have evidence to the contrary? Because you haven't provided any yet.

 

How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake, but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful? RJ isn’t referring to Forsaken men only, since he included LTT at the end of the sentence, but on first glance it might look like this.

Yes, he is.

It doesn’t say ‘the second most powerful forsaken (man)’. It says ‘second most powerful man’. LTT was included in the equation. I thought it was common knowledge LTT wasn’t part of the Forsaken?

He wasn't. But look at the context: about one of the Chosen, in a section of the book dealing with the Chosen. So the reference is to the Chosen, most likely. Aginor is the second most powerful man in the Chosen, behind Ishamael and LTT, who is on the side of the Light but is as strong as Ishy.

 

Luc was a man before he met Isam in the high passes!

How does that disprove Slayer?

It doesn't. He still is a man.

”Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.“

 

I doubt what makes the whole that is Slayer, qualifies as a man. But whatever floats your boat.

How does that disprove Luc's sex? Whatever floats your boat.

 

5. RJ mentioned there was a "Shaidar Haran 0.5" in relation to a chapter in TGH. (pre-Moridin)

I believe that was about the Myrddraal in TDR with an apparent sense of humour.

It was. You thought that was news?

No, I thought I was correcting you on the book. Apparently not, as it was in TDR like I said, not TGH like you said...wait a minute...

Re-read that bit, especially when Sharbon enters Carradins room. He went to buy fruit for Carridin’s ___ (I’ll help you; “guest”.. You think a fade was the guest?)

That fade was Ishamael –somehow linked- right there.

Re-read it. Doesn't say what Sharbon thought Carridin's guest was, does it? Fade shows up, it's hardly likely to proclaim it's nature in the Fortress of the Light, is it? But with the hood of it's cloak up, so it's face cannot be seen, and it's eyelessness goes unnoticed, then it telling Sharbon to get out would send him scurrying out the room. He could easily decide to go and buy fruit without the Myrddraal telling him to. It really doesn't require Ishamael to go parading around as a Halfman when he has previously doen no such thing, nor since then. Why doesn't he just appear as himself? As Ba'alzamon? Is that insufficiently impressive? "I am one of the Chosen, with my flaming eye socketsd and mouth, obey me",  "Flaming eyes and mouth? Not very impressive, really. Now if you were a Lurk..."

 

5. If the Watcher is Moridin, how come he could step outside the Pattern?

5. Because he can ender a vacuole

It is possible for a human to step outside the Pattern, and there is nothing to say that a vacuole is the only way.

Examples please? I back up my claims.

What quote should I provide to back up my claim that nowhere in the entire text is it stated that a vacuole is the only way for a human to step outside the Pattern? I would have to quote the entire text. That might be a tad time consuming. It stands unless there is something to contradict it. Unless there is something to say that a vacuole is the only way, then my claim that there is nothing to say that a vacuole is the only way is entirely correct. It is a statement that cannot be proven, only disproven. In short, it was an idiotic thing to ask. Also, you do not back up your claims. You provide random quotes that may support you or may not, that may even contradict you, you state opinions as facts, even when there is not one word to support them...I have this funny feeling of deja vu.

 

Anyway, logically: If the Watcher is Ishamael reborn and Ishamael reborn is Moridin, then the Watcher is Moridin. I don't see anyone (not even Mik) disagreeing with either the first or second parts, therefore no-one should disagree with the third. Watcher was Moridin. End of debate.

I agree with it all, except that last line. Perfect logic, until you say "end of debate". Not the end of the debate if Ishamaels mind inhabits two bodies.

We have no reason to suspect Ishamael's mind of inhabiting more than one body.

Luc reborn is Slayer. Slayer is Luc, end of debate?

No. Luc reborn is not Slayer. Is Luc reborn? Also, Luc is a part of Slayer, not Slayer. But Slayer is all of Luc. And all of Isam.

 

Just answer those 4 questions, Mr Ares. I’m sure you’ll find it easy to explain the Watcher is Moridin.

I did answer, and I did find it easy.

 

yet Ishamael escaped more or less unscathed (getting a few limbs blown off back then wouldn't count as scathed

Getting a few limbs blown off doesn't count as scathed!? What the hell does!?

[Thor]

Firstly, we dont' even know how many limbs if any got blown off.

Secondly, in an age with proper restorers and advanced science, blown off limbs don't count as damage.

[Mik]

I see beauty in the pattern within the pattern.

Whether or not there is a pattern within the pattern.

Well, *I* didn’t name that specific chapter “Patterns Within Patterns”; RJ did that. So, I’m thinking there actually is just that; a pattern within the pattern. I think I found it in what is written at the end of said chapter.

You’re totally free to believe RJ was just referring to the patterns of the callbox only, although I think that’s pretty narrow-minded. You’re also free to disregard the chapter-title altogether.

It’s not proof by itself at all, but I think it fits and adds weight to what’s really important in this chapter; one of the few PoV’s we get from this being. Suit yourself though. All fine.

 

1. How did the Watcher sense Sammael holding the source?

1. Because men can sense other men holding the Power.

I’ve been over this atleast three times before you brought it up again, so I’m not going to quote all the relevant sections of the books again. It’s proven that male human channelers can only sense another male human channeler holding the source from up close and personal to an absolute maximum of 15 feet, if it’s not less. (see last post on page 10 of this discussion).

I think it’s out of the question that the Watcher was trailing the deadly duo that close, considering the text. (the red dress comment & the noise made in a forest).

 

2. How did the Watcher see the difference between Sammael & Grandael linked and Sammael and Graendal holding the source individually? How did the Watcher know Sammael ‘had let the link dissolve’?

2. We have seen examples of the presence of one half of the Power being inferred by those can only sense one half, because they take note of an absence. Think about it.

Well, I have thought about that. But I think you need to think on it some more;

A: When channelers made a remark about that, it was only in reaction to channelling and not just holding on to the Source. The big difference is that there are no flows to observe making unnatural ‘bends’ around an absence when noone is channelling, like Sammy & Granny.

B: Even disregarding “A”, you are referring to examples by female channelers solely, since those can actually see flows from other female channelers. If you give me one quote where one human male channeler can see another channelers (female or male) flows bend around an absence, I’ll eat my socks.

 

So, I think your argument here is flawed, unless you say the Watcher is a female channeler who is watching two channelers actively channelling. I think it’s safe to say you are wrong.

My question remains unanswered unless you accept that the Watcher wasn’t all that human.

 

3. How did the Watcher follow without making sound? Following two channelers holding the source & thus having heightened senses.

3. The Watcher notes they do not even bother to check back to see if any Aiel are following them. Why would he note this if any Aiel following would be automatically detected by heightened senses? It is possible to move through a forest quietly.

Simple; because both Graendal & Sammael know they will hear anyone comming close, before he or she can become a threat to them. Sure, they might spot someone with heightened eye-sight earlier, but why bother when they would hear anyone comming close before they could possibly be a threat to two channelers holding the Source? What that remark tells us, is that no Aiel were actually following them. Which means that there are less sources around to even make sounds.

 

There also a big difference between “moving quietly” through a forest and “ghosting without making sound” through said forest. While at first glance the latter can be easily mistaken for the first with a touch of poetic liberty, that doesn’t stick when taking a closer look. Even Aiel make sound when moving through a forest, per Sevanna’s thoughts in the very same chapter.

 

Here’s what Sevanna hears when Sammael & Grandeal approached the clearing in the same forest;

“…and in that moment [the other wise women] heard what [sevanna] did. Something rustled in the dead leaves among the trees. No Aiel would make so much noise, even if any would approach Wise Ones unbidden, and no animal would come so near people.”

 

Now I’m sure Sammy & Granny weren’t trying to be quiet at all, but Sevanna compares what she hears to how much sound Aiel would make and she thinks “no aiel would make so much noise”. This means that even Aiel would make sound for Sevanna to pick up. And Sevanna doesn’t have saidar-enhanced hearing. How easy would it be for source-enhanced hearing to pick up sounds coming from another source then yourself? And ofcourse even Aiel produce sound when moving through a forest; they’re only human after all.

 

Here’s what a male channeler (Rand) hears while holding the source and trying his best to move as soundlessly as he could in the same book (chapter 41);

“Rand almost channelled [he’s just holding the source],../ /… He hurried forward as fast as he could, as soundlessly as he could. Shattered pavement crunched under his boots with a sound like bones snapping. He hoped it was loud only to his saidin-enhanced ears.”

 

How much noise do you think a few rustling leaves and moving/ snapping twigs would produce to saidin-enhanced ears, when crunching rubble sounds as loud as bones snapping? Even if you’re an Aiel trailing channelers in a forest, those channelers would hear that Aiel before he’d be within a hundred paces of the channelers.

 

So, if you believe the Watcher is human you have to assume that he has better abilities then the Aiel when following someone (wich IMO is unfounded by the books).

And you have to accept that the Watcher is trailing them from very far off, which is implied by the text because of the red dress comment. Then, how did the Watcher know about question 1 & 2? (that Sammael held the source & that he had let the link dissolve)

 

Even if I'd consider that the Watcher is so far off that the sounds he does produce are unheard by both Grandeal & Sammael, it doesn't mix at all with your answer to either question 1 and 2, because of the range-difference. We don't need exact figures for the distance to see that the distance needed here is far far larger then the distance-limit for question 1 & 2.

Sorry, no cigar.

 

4. Why don’t we see the Watcher stumbling around like Sammael & Graendal? How did he ghost through the trees unhindered?

4. The Watcher notes Sammael "had never really been at home away from the cities." City boy in the forest will have a harder time than experienced huntsman in the forest. This is easy. Did you really need me to tell you?

No, you didn’t need to tell me this, because it’s unfounded to assume Ishy/Moridin has the skills you propose he has. You try to make it sound like logic –which it isn’t- and again, you try to stop discussion by bullying. Alas, to no avail.

 

Since you seem to believe that the Watcher is Moridin & just a human, could you please point out from anywhere else in the books that Ishamael (or Moridin) is an ‘experienced huntsman’ as you put it? I seem to recall he was a philosopher/ theologian. Not the type of man to have the skills you say he has. Very far from it, in fact.

From the shreds of text we do have from the past 3000 years, Ishamael (or later Moridin) has usually worked from TAR, or as someone pulling strings behind the scene / whispering in ears at courts and the Tower. Nowhere do we see or even read he has the skills that surpass an Aiel or come anywhere close of an ‘experienced huntsman’.

 

There’s far more reason to believe that Ishamael or Moridin in their human body would stumble about as both Sammael & Grandeal did (It’s not just Sammy). Moridin scorns this Age and it’s more basic/‘worldly’ abilities as much –or more- as the next Chosen. In the PoV that we do know is his, he thinks of *angreal from the AoL as ‘scraps of civilization’ and refers to 3rd Agers as “barbarous rustics” & “primitives”.

So instead of any proof that Moridin has any tracking skill in a wood whatsoever, this PoV clearly shows a strong disdain for anything less then the civilisation of the AoL; a civilisation with huge cities and architecture. That doesn't strike me as the type to go fishing in the woods or something.

 

In fact, it's logic to believe a former(?) philosopher (Ishy) would stumble about even more then a former athlete known world-wide who -like Be'lal- is a swordmaster and back in the AoL was world-champion at a bloodless form of ‘swords’.

Sammael is way more agile & nimbly on his feet then Ishamael is, hands down.

 

I think it’s far more likely that Moridin (and Ishamael before that) is literally ‘less then half human’ as was stated by so many close to him. Shaidar Haran is the ‘less then human half’ of the Nae’Blis.

Because, like I said before; we've seen twice in TEotW, Myrddraal can move absolutely soundlesly, literally.

 

Simply because the Watcher must be Ishy-recycled in a new body also' date=' considering the Watchers thoughts.[/quote']And Ishy recycled is Moridin. Therefore Moridin is the Watcher. There is no evidence Moridin and Shaidar Haran are the same. You can wave Slayer around, but it is clear that what happened to Slayer did happen, but nothing at all to indicate that it has happened to Moridin and SH.

Well, then I’m sure you have no problem explaining the questions above. I’m just asking you for a reasonable explanation on how the Watcher can be Moridin.

And yes, I can wave Slayer around. And you missed the point; it shows we know Shai’tan can mix two separate beings into one. It’s creates a precedent.

I did not miss the point, boy. But just because RJ has estblished such a thing is possible doesn't mean it has ever happened at any time other than the one we know about. There is nothing to indicate it has happened to Moridin and Shaidar Haran, so why should we believe it has? No reason. And your questions were answered. They weren't even hard to answer. How is it unreasonable that the Watcher is Moridin? It isn't. Also, this isn't Slayer - he was two merged into one. You are proposing one split into two, more or less - Ishy becoming Moridin and SH. Just not at the same time. Which is without precedent.

Boy? It’s so hard to not scorn the other, is it not? Anyway…

 

There’s more then enough to indicate it. You just wave every indication away.

I never said “one split into two”. How is a fade & man merged into one being “one spilt into two”?

What do you mean “not at the same time”..? I never said that…

Don’t try to put words in my mouth.

 

And about what you thought were easy answers to my questions; I’m sorry, but I just showed you they are flawed. I'll be the first to believe they were not hard to come up with as you stated, but then again, they’re as wrong as they were easy.

 

Shaidar Haran tells us that the mind has to get used to the new situation after transmigration' date=' but eventually, the mind will bend to the body. The same goes for Ishamaels mind in a Myrddraal body.[/quote']Ishamael's mind is in a human body.

That too, yes.

No, just that. Human body. Nothing else. Unles you have evidence to the contrary? Because you haven't provided any yet.

I think I’ve proved that the Watcher can’t be a male human being. That, together with hints like “less then half human & more then half mad”, “having a trolloc name” among things, should give you some idea. It’s small hints that taken individually don’t mean much. But when grabbed together form a pattern.

 

How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake' date=' but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful? [b']RJ isn’t referring to Forsaken men only[/b], since he included LTT at the end of the sentence, but on first glance it might look like this.

Yes, he is.

It doesn’t say ‘the second most powerful forsaken (man)’. It says ‘second most powerful man’. LTT was included in the equation. I thought it was common knowledge LTT wasn’t part of the Forsaken?

He wasn't. But look at the context: about one of the Chosen, in a section of the book dealing with the Chosen. So the reference is to the Chosen, most likely. Aginor is the second most powerful man in the Chosen, behind Ishamael and LTT, who is on the side of the Light but is as strong as Ishy..

You really didn’t need to explain the obvious there. I know how easy it was to fall for it. And it’s ok that you did too.

 

That doesn’t make you right; that sentence should have said ‘third most powerful man’ if LTT, Ishamael & Aginor are all men. So either RJ made a boo-boo, or it means LTT or Ishamael wasn’t what RJ considers 'a man'.

 

Maybe someone of better standings in this community or someone better trusted as a linguist could help me out here? Not that it should really matter, but I feel my words carry little weight with you.

 

Considering the other indications I already put forward, take your pick on who RJ thinks couldn't be considered 'a man' in the AoL.

 

I pick Ishamael; Elan Morin betrayed hope by sacrificing himself to Shai'tan so deep, that it gave Shai'tan a foothold inside a living human being. That being was known as Ba'alzamon. An ancient name from before the breaking (scrap of paper). Suposedly a Trolloc name, who coincidently happen to name their human throwback offspring.

When Ishamael died in TDR, there was even less humanity left in him -after millenia of TP usage- then when Elan Morin first sacrificed his whole being in service to Shai'tan. Shai'tan also had a much firmer grasp on the pattern then when Elan Morin first came to Shayol Ghul. That's why Shaidar Haran is an improved version; what's left of the human Elan Morin is not even enough for Moridin himself to consider him being alive, hence the fitting name 'Death'. (incidently, this also answers the question still out on the internet, why Moridin thought that "only nine people living, still remembered Sha'rah"; He doesn't count himself among those nine.)

 

I'll even bring in Taim again!  ;D

Ishamael made a promise to the Dragon that 'he would make men kneel and worship his name' (Prologue - TEotW). Moridin is doing exactly that in the Black Tower; he's shaping men into weapons, making them forget their humanity and worshipping their Leader. He's playing two sides of the board.

You think it is coincidence that both 'Asha' & 'man' refer to "Blades" in the old tongue? ('man'darb = blade,  'ashan'darei = sword-spear, 'man'shima = sword)

Moridin is posing as Taim and he is literally the "Blademaster"

Asha'M'Hael means "Master of Blades".

Ishamael.

Asha'M'Hael.

Coincidence?

 

Luc was a man before he met Isam in the high passes!

How does that disprove Slayer?

It doesn't. He still is a man.

”Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.“

 

I doubt what makes the whole that is Slayer, qualifies as a man. But whatever floats your boat.

How does that disprove Luc's sex? Whatever floats your boat.

It doesn’t, but you forget that RJ does make the distinction between a creature being considered as male, and what RJ considers to be men. (see the BWB on fades and Shai’tan. Fades are all sterile males and Shai’tan is regarded as male, yet neither fades nor Shai’tan is a man)

 

The Shadow’s hounds present in Slayer (one alive & one dead) can be male, but at the same time not be considered men. You have to view those two aspects separately, because RJ himself makes a clear distinction between the two.

 

I’m saying Slayer can’t be considered what RJ would call ‘a man’, while he can still be considered ‘male’, as RJ does.

Whereas you said Slayer was ‘still a man’. I beg to differ & disagree totally.

Dapple is male. Myrddraal are male. Slayer is male.

That doesn’t make any of those examples 'men', even if you can understand it easier for Dapple & Myrddraal.

 

The same applies to Elan Morin;

He stopped being just 'a man' when he became less then human; Ba'alzamon - the Heart of the Dark.

He betrayed humanity, by giving up his own willingly. That's what it means to be Nae'Blis;

To be literally half a step between existance and the absence of everything.

 

5. RJ mentioned there was a "Shaidar Haran 0.5" in relation to a chapter in TGH. (pre-Moridin)

I believe that was about the Myrddraal in TDR with an apparent sense of humour.

It was. You thought that was news?

No, I thought I was correcting you on the book. Apparently not, as it was in TDR like I said, not TGH like you said...wait a minute...

Re-read that bit, especially when Sharbon enters Carradins room. He went to buy fruit for Carridin’s ___ (I’ll help you; “guest”.. You think a fade was the guest?)

That fade was Ishamael –somehow linked- right there.

Re-read it. Doesn't say what Sharbon thought Carridin's guest was, does it? Fade shows up, it's hardly likely to proclaim it's nature in the Fortress of the Light, is it? But with the hood of it's cloak up, so it's face cannot be seen, and it's eyelessness goes unnoticed, then it telling Sharbon to get out would send him scurrying out the room. He could easily decide to go and buy fruit without the Myrddraal telling him to. It really doesn't require Ishamael to go parading around as a Halfman when he has previously doen no such thing, nor since then. Why doesn't he just appear as himself? As Ba'alzamon? Is that insufficiently impressive? "I am one of the Chosen, with my flaming eye socketsd and mouth, obey me",  "Flaming eyes and mouth? Not very impressive, really. Now if you were a Lurk..."

About TGH/ TDR; my mistake. I mixed up both prologues because both involve Bors/Carradin & the events are linked.

 

About Sharbon; you think Ba’alzamon would jeopardize one of his ‘dogs’ in a position where that dog can command thousands by showing up as a Fade in front of non-darkfriends and asking them to go fetch him some apples? That goes directly against the gist of the prologues of TGH & TDR, where Bors was important enough to summon to the meeting. Carradin’srole is important enough to let him live and threaten the living daylight out of him, to make sure he punches where Ba’alzamon pointed.

Even the slightest whisper of a Fade/Trolloc/Creature with Dark powers present in Carradins quarters inside the Fortress of the Light would have Carradin questioned & hanged.

 

“I serve the . . . ” He cut off, suddenly aware of where he was. In the heart of the Fortress of the Light. The rumor of a whisper of the words he was about to say would have him given to the Hand of the Light. The lowest of the Children [a servant like Sharbon] would strike him down on the spot if he heard. He was alone except for the Myrddraal, and perhaps Sharbon—Where is that cursed man? It would be good to have someone to share the Halfman’s stare, even if the other would have to be disposed of afterwards—[Proof Sharbon isn’t a Darkfriend] but still he lowered his voice. “I serve the Great Lord of the Dark, as you do. We both serve.”

 

I don’t believe for a split-second that a lowest of the Children (Sharbon) would refer to a Fade –even with hood up- as Carradin’s “guest”; He’d be running for guards the second he was out of the room. Anything out of the ordinary in people is enough to be put to the question. Let alone a black cloacked stranger making you feel paralyzed and scared to your toenails, sounding like death itself when asking for fruit, right there in the Heart of the Fortress of the Light!

 

And I don’t understand how you could see it that way, given Carradins own thoughts on saying ‘Great Lord of the Dark’ & the Whitecloak stance towards the Shadow in general.

 

The only way the scene makes sense where a non-Darkfriend Whitecloak servant gets fruit as requested by Carradin's guest, is for that guest to sound & look like a normal human being.

 

5. If the Watcher is Moridin' date=' how come he could step outside the Pattern?[/quote']5. Because he can ender a vacuole

It is possible for a human to step outside the Pattern, and there is nothing to say that a vacuole is the only way.

Examples please? I back up my claims.

What quote should I provide to back up my claim that nowhere in the entire text is it stated that a vacuole is the only way for a human to step outside the Pattern? I would have to quote the entire text. That might be a tad time consuming. It stands unless there is something to contradict it.

So, because of the fact that nowhere in the 14 stories published (including NS, BWB & Strike@SG) it is mentioned that a human being can step outside the pattern, except in bubbles of space-time that are still attached to said pattern (aka vacuoles), is the fundament for your statement?!?

Think about that…

My response; “no comment”. (it needs none, tbh)

 

About point 5 itself; I already conceded this point when Fryn brought up vacuoles as an answer. It’s still funny that Shaidar Haran is the being transporting Moghedien from one, back into the pattern.

See? I love it if people come up with reason.

 

Anyway' date=' logically: If the Watcher is Ishamael reborn and Ishamael reborn is Moridin, then the Watcher is Moridin. I don't see anyone (not even Mik) disagreeing with either the first or second parts, therefore no-one should disagree with the third. Watcher was Moridin. End of debate.[/quote']I agree with it all, except that last line. Perfect logic, until you say "end of debate". Not the end of the debate if Ishamaels mind inhabits two bodies.

We have no reason to suspect Ishamael's mind of inhabiting more than one body.

Au contraire. We do have reasons, but you’re just not ready to admit there is ground for it. That's ok.

 

Slayers mind inhabits two bodies; Luc & Isam. Both bodies share that same mind. One mind does the thinking at any given time, yet that one mind holds memories for both. Luc can remember what Isam did & Luc knows what Isam likes. And vice versa.

 

Luc reborn is Slayer. Slayer is Luc' date=' end of debate?[/quote']No. Luc reborn is not Slayer. Is Luc reborn? Also, Luc is a part of Slayer, not Slayer. But Slayer is all of Luc. And all of Isam.

I’m not sure if you can call it ‘reborn’, but given the way you yourself used that same term (reborn) when referring to the transmigration of Ishamael (see one quote up), I used that same term to make my point easier to compare to your statement about Ishamael.

 

So my answer is;

Either Luc or Isam is dead, and the other one is alive, but both are (per dark prophecy).

Luc (or Isam) is as much 'reborn' as Ishamael was; a person died and got his mind transmigrated.

Like you say above; Slayer is all of Luc & Isam. Agreed.

 

I say that the Nae’Blis is all of Moridin & Shaidar Haran. I don't see what's so hard to understand about the concept.

The concept is the same. The actual results & probably the makings are slightly different.

 

Just answer those 4 questions' date=' Mr Ares. I’m sure you’ll find it easy to explain the Watcher is Moridin.[/quote']I did answer, and I did find it easy.

I'm sorry, but your arguments were easy answers, of which some arguments were already brought up by others (and tackled by me), or were easily disproved.

 

Cheers,

Mik -halfmad boy-  ;)

 

[Thor]

That was a load of stuff to read an I cba.

 

The watcher is Morridin, bottom line.

[lordofsoup]

the watcher also felt a prickly sensation when Saiden was channeled and a different one when Saidar was channeled

[Mik]

the watcher also felt a prickly sensation when Saiden was channeled and a different one when Saidar was channeled

That's not completely accurate. Nowhere in the text does it say that the Watcher felt a prickling on his skin due to Saidin. In fact, the text suggests that the Watcher does not have a prickling sensation when Saidin is being channeled at all.

The prickling skin stops when Grandeal let's go of her Gateway weave. At this point, Sammael is still actively keeping his Gateway open for Grandeal to step through. We know this because Sammy's Gateway closes behind Grandeal the moment she steps through.

 

The only time we read that the Watcher is experiencing a prickling skin is in relation to Graendal channeling her own Gateway:

 

For a moment [Grandael] stood looking at [sammael's Gateway]. A vertical silver slash appeared off to one side, but before her gateway began to align, she let go the weave, slowly, the streak shrinking to a point before winking out. The prickling vanished from the watcher’s skin as she released saidar as well. With a fixed face, she followed Sammael, and his gateway closed behind her.

 

At first glance, the prickling vanishes from the Watchers skin because Graendal releases Saidar. But this is not the case. We can see this, because in that sentence, RJ sneakily added the seemingly unimportant words 'as well'. Had those two words not been there, then the vanishing of the prickling skin would have ben a result of the release of Saidar by Grandeal.

 

What that tells us is that those two events take place simultaniously, but are unrelated.

Then what is the cause of the vanishing of the pirckling sensation on the Watchers skin? What happens right before or maybe even at the same time as Graendal releases the Source? She let go the weave of her own Gateway.

The prickling vanishes because a female channeler stops actively channeling a very large ammount of Saidar (needed for a Gateway).

 

Nowhere else in that PoV is the prickling mentioned. Not even when Graendal used the power to break of a branch and send it flying.

Again, this indicates that the distance between the Watcher and Sammy/ Granny was substantial.

 

If the pirckling skin is the tingling skin a male human channelers respons to Saidar use/Female holding the source or the itching skin a Myrddraal feels when a female channels is unclear. It could be either one.

 

Cheers,

Mik

[Duneflayer]

man mik tou really know yur stuff :o

[Mr Ares]

Secondly, in an age with proper restorers and advanced science, blown off limbs don't count as damage.

We don't know it's possible to regrow limbs. I fail to see how getting limbs blown off doesn't count as damage. I can only conclude you still have all yours, or you wouldn't say something so blatantly ridiculous.

 

The watcher is Morridin, bottom line.

No arguments from me.

 

1. How did the Watcher sense Sammael holding the source?

1. Because men can sense other men holding the Power.

I’ve been over this atleast three times before you brought it up again, so I’m not going to quote all the relevant sections of the books again. It’s proven that male human channelers can only sense another male human channeler holding the source from up close and personal to an absolute maximum of 15 feet, if it’s not less. (see last post on page 10 of this discussion).

Absolute maximum? You've made that up. The Cleansing was felt from miles around. Miles is bigger than 15 feet, therefore you are wrong. And I know you've brought it up before. You're still wrong.

 

2. How did the Watcher see the difference between Sammael & Grandael linked and Sammael and Graendal holding the source individually? How did the Watcher know Sammael ‘had let the link dissolve’?

2. We have seen examples of the presence of one half of the Power being inferred by those can only sense one half, because they take note of an absence. Think about it.

Well, I have thought about that. But I think you need to think on it some more. So, I think your argument here is flawed.

Apparantly I thought about it more than you did. Also, you fail to truly grasp what my argument is, therefore you cannot correctly assess it as flawed. We know of one way to deduce the presence or absence of a link, but we need not believe it is the only way. Nothing about that section requires any sort of link sensing power that would require the Watcher to be anything other than a human male. It could, for example, be inferred from how saidar and saidin are used - we see a branch get out of Graendal's path, and Sammael is unlikely to do such a thing, not if he didn't have to. If Sammael is unlikely to clear branches from Graendal's path, then Graendal must be using the Source, and as a one man one woman link must be controlled by a man, then there is unlikely to be any link. This requires only such knowledge of the Power as would be known to any man in the AoL, and such knowledge of the character of Sammael (or any of the Chosen, really) as would be well known to any of his fellow Chosen. There could be any number of other ways of telling whether or not there was still a link. Maybe he overheard Greandal asking Sammael to dissolve the link. See, there is no shortage of possible answers, yet you put forward your own as if it were the only one.

 

3. How did the Watcher follow without making sound? Following two channelers holding the source & thus having heightened senses.

3. The Watcher notes they do not even bother to check back to see if any Aiel are following them. Why would he note this if any Aiel following would be automatically detected by heightened senses? It is possible to move through a forest quietly.

There also a big difference between “moving quietly” through a forest and “ghosting without making sound” through said forest. While at first glance the latter can be easily mistaken for the first with a touch of poetic liberty, that doesn’t stick when taking a closer look. Even Aiel make sound when moving through a forest, per Sevanna’s thoughts in the very same chapter.

Aiel are not experienced at moving through a forest. And it you yourself brought up the possibility of "poetic liberty", and yet you provide nothing to refute this as a valid hypothesis. If it is poetic liberty, all it means is that he is moving to quietly to draw attention to himself from Sammael and Graendal. Nothing special about that.

 

Here’s what a male channeler (Rand) hears while holding the source and trying his best to move as soundlessly as he could in the same book (chapter 41);

“Rand almost channelled [he’s just holding the source],../ /… He hurried forward as fast as he could, as soundlessly as he could. Shattered pavement crunched under his boots with a sound like bones snapping. He hoped it was loud only to his saidin-enhanced ears.”

On different terrain, with no indication of how loud it would be to anyone else, such as someone as far away from Rand as G&S are from the Watcher.

 

Sorry, no cigar.

That's alright, I don't smoke. Still, I've destroyed your arguments, and that's enough. Although you accepting that reality would be a nice present.

 

4. Why don’t we see the Watcher stumbling around like Sammael & Graendal? How did he ghost through the trees unhindered?

4. The Watcher notes Sammael "had never really been at home away from the cities." City boy in the forest will have a harder time than experienced huntsman in the forest. This is easy. Did you really need me to tell you?

No, you didn’t need to tell me this, because it’s unfounded to assume Ishy/Moridin has the skills you propose he has. You try to make it sound like logic –which it isn’t- and again, you try to stop discussion by bullying. Alas, to no avail.

You yourself admitted that the Watcher must be Ishamael in transmigrated form. The Watcher claims to have expertise in many areas Sam scorned, in relation to his tracking of the two without being detected. He also says over the years, and SH hasn't been around years.

 

I seem to recall he was a philosopher/ theologian. Not the type of man to have the skills you say he has. Very far from it, in fact.

The two are not mutually exclusive realities. Socrates was a soldier.

 

There’s far more reason to believe that Ishamael or Moridin in their human body would stumble about as both Sammael & Grandeal did (It’s not just Sammy).

And yet the Watcher specifically relates his undetectability to skills he has acquired over the years in areas Sam scorned. Further more, he learned expertise, it is never stated to be some sort of inbuilt ability, quite the reverse, so unless it was a Fade learning these skills... These skills were learned by someone who had been around years, SH hasn't, therefore it cannot be SH, and the Watcher is Ishy v2, therefore Ishy v1 must have had these skills.

 

Sammael is way more agile & nimbly on his feet then Ishamael is, hands down.

But stuck to the cities.

 

Because, like I said before; we've seen twice in TEotW, Myrddraal can move absolutely soundlesly, literally.

And is this a learned skill?

 

Simply because the Watcher must be Ishy-recycled in a new body also' date=' considering the Watchers thoughts.[/quote']And Ishy recycled is Moridin. Therefore Moridin is the Watcher. There is no evidence Moridin and Shaidar Haran are the same. You can wave Slayer around, but it is clear that what happened to Slayer did happen, but nothing at all to indicate that it has happened to Moridin and SH.

Well, then I’m sure you have no problem explaining the questions above. I’m just asking you for a reasonable explanation on how the Watcher can be Moridin.

And yes, I can wave Slayer around. And you missed the point; it shows we know Shai’tan can mix two separate beings into one. It’s creates a precedent.

I did not miss the point, boy. But just because RJ has estblished such a thing is possible doesn't mean it has ever happened at any time other than the one we know about. There is nothing to indicate it has happened to Moridin and Shaidar Haran, so why should we believe it has? No reason. And your questions were answered. They weren't even hard to answer. How is it unreasonable that the Watcher is Moridin? It isn't. Also, this isn't Slayer - he was two merged into one. You are proposing one split into two, more or less - Ishy becoming Moridin and SH. Just not at the same time. Which is without precedent.

Boy? It’s so hard to not scorn the other, is it not? Anyway…

You are a boy, next to me. I don't know of anyone on here who isn't young enough to be my grandchild.

 

There’s more then enough to indicate it. You just wave every indication away.

Because they are nothing.

I never said “one split into two”. How is a fade & man merged into one being “one spilt into two”?

What do you mean “not at the same time”..? I never said that…

Don’t try to put words in my mouth.

But the Fade still has the memories of the man - you admitted the Watcher had to be Ishamael. So Ishamael is both man and Myrddraal, but only one at a time. So Ishy v2 has been split in 2. Two bodies, one mind.

 

And about what you thought were easy answers to my questions; I’m sorry, but I just showed you they are flawed. I'll be the first to believe they were not hard to come up with as you stated, but then again, they’re as wrong as they were easy.

No, easy and right, and I destroyed your counterarguments with ease.

 

I think I’ve proved that the Watcher can’t be a male human being. But when grabbed together form a pattern.

No, they don't. You have not shown the Watcher cannot be a male human being.

 

How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake' date=' but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful? [b']RJ isn’t referring to Forsaken men only[/b], since he included LTT at the end of the sentence, but on first glance it might look like this.

Yes, he is.

It doesn’t say ‘the second most powerful forsaken (man)’. It says ‘second most powerful man’. LTT was included in the equation. I thought it was common knowledge LTT wasn’t part of the Forsaken?

He wasn't. But look at the context: about one of the Chosen, in a section of the book dealing with the Chosen. So the reference is to the Chosen, most likely. Aginor is the second most powerful man in the Chosen, behind Ishamael and LTT, who is on the side of the Light but is as strong as Ishy..

You really didn’t need to explain the obvious there. I know how easy it was to fall for it. And it’s ok that you did too.

 

That doesn’t make you right; that sentence should have said ‘third most powerful man’ if LTT, Ishamael & Aginor are all men. So either RJ made a boo-boo, or it means LTT or Ishamael wasn’t what RJ considers 'a man'.

Or, depending on context, it was referring to male Chosen, in which case he is second strongest, and he also stands beneath LTT in strength.

 

The Shadow’s hounds present in Slayer (one alive & one dead) can be male, but at the same time not be considered men.

He seems like a man to me. True, he is changed, and can do things other men can't. But so can channelers. Are they men? Yes. So why can't Slayer be considered a man? He can be.

 

About Sharbon; you think Ba’alzamon would jeopardize one of his ‘dogs’ in a position where that dog can command thousands by showing up as a Fade in front of non-darkfriends and asking them to go fetch him some apples?

Re-read, boy: "He could easily decide to go and buy fruit without the Myrddraal telling him to." And that Fade was already willing to jeopardise Carridin by showing up in the Fortress, and telling him to put the Shadow's orders before The Children's. Why did Ish decide to appear as a Fade anyway? You still haven't answered that.

 

I don’t believe for a split-second that a lowest of the Children (Sharbon) would refer to a Fade –even with hood up- as Carradin’s “guest”;

And I don't believe that Sharbon was ever stated to be one of the Children. He is Carridin's servant, and a servant need not necessarily be one of the Children.

He’d be running for guards the second he was out of the room.

Apparently your copy of the book has far more information on the character of the person in question than mine does.

 

So, because of the fact that nowhere in the 14 stories published (including NS, BWB & Strike@SG) it is mentioned that a human being can step outside the pattern, except in bubbles of space-time that are still attached to said pattern (aka vacuoles), is the fundament for your statement?!?

Think about that…

My response; “no comment”. (it needs none, tbh)

My statemant was that there was nothing against it. You asked me to prove a negative. And most of the time there was nothing at all of any relevance to this point. And where is it stated that this was the only way?

 

Anyway' date=' logically: If the Watcher is Ishamael reborn and Ishamael reborn is Moridin, then the Watcher is Moridin. I don't see anyone (not even Mik) disagreeing with either the first or second parts, therefore no-one should disagree with the third. Watcher was Moridin. End of debate.[/quote']I agree with it all, except that last line. Perfect logic, until you say "end of debate". Not the end of the debate if Ishamaels mind inhabits two bodies.

We have no reason to suspect Ishamael's mind of inhabiting more than one body.

Au contraire. We do have reasons, but you’re just not ready to admit there is ground for it. That's ok.

 

Slayers mind inhabits two bodies; Luc & Isam. Both bodies share that same mind. One mind does the thinking at any given time, yet that one mind holds memories for both. Luc can remember what Isam did & Luc knows what Isam likes. And vice versa.

Slayer's minds. He has two, although each knows the other well and the two are similar, as well as sharing memories. Two minds.

 

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the concept.

The concept is easily grasped. It is also utterly unsupported. There is nothing to indicate they are the same being, and plenty against.

 

The prickling vanished from the watcher’s skin as she released saidar as well.

At first glance, the prickling vanishes from the Watchers skin because Graendal releases Saidar. But this is not the case. We can see this, because in that sentence, RJ sneakily added the seemingly unimportant words 'as well'. Had those two words not been there, then the vanishing of the prickling skin would have ben a result of the release of Saidar by Grandeal.

Not so, Mik. She releases the weave, and she releases saidar, as indicated by the prickiling sensation vanishing, as well as releasing the weave. She releases saidar as well as the weave, and releasing saidar is what the absence of the prickling sensation indicates. It is clear in the words.

 

Edited to add:

“Least of all, my trust for you. I will be part of the link, or it ends now.”

 

The golden haired woman [Graendal] threw back her head and laughed. “Poor man,” she said mockingly, waving a beringed finger at him. “Do you not think he would notice that you were linked? He has a teacher, remember. A poor one, but not a complete fool.”

 

-The Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow.

Men can detect links.

[Thor]

We don't know it's possible to regrow limbs. I fail to see how getting limbs blown off doesn't count as damage. I can only conclude you still have all yours, or you wouldn't say something so blatantly ridiculous.

 

It is not ridiculous at all.  Age of Legends is described as the pinnacle of both knowledge in power and technology.  So anything I or anyone can think of, they can think of.  I say they can regrow limbs and organs therefore they can.

 

Because it is (science) fiction.

 

And no, damage done that can be easily reversed does not count as damage.  Just as even though LTT and the Servants slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Shadowspawn, it did not count, because more would just come.

[Mr Ares]

We don't know it's possible to regrow limbs. I fail to see how getting limbs blown off doesn't count as damage. I can only conclude you still have all yours, or you wouldn't say something so blatantly ridiculous.

It is not ridiculous at all. Age of Legends is described as the pinnacle of both knowledge in power and technology. So anything I or anyone can think of, they can think of. I say they can regrow limbs and organs therefore they can.

You can imagine Healing Severing, presumably. They could imagine it too, but they couldn't do it. The mere fact of something being imagined does not automatically make it possible, even in very advanced civilisations.

 

Because it is (science) fiction.

It is fantasy, but you do not make the rules of the world, RJ did. They can do it only if RJ says they can.

 

And no, damage done that can be easily reversed does not count as damage.

Yes, it does.

Just as even though LTT and the Servants slaughtered thousands upon thousands of Shadowspawn, it did not count, because more would just come.

Yes, it did count, even if more would come.

[Mik]

Ok, I wrote a way way different response this week-end and I’m glad I didn’t post it. So here goes again...the nice way. (well.. the nicest way possible)  :-*

 

Sidenote to Thor; this is a long post again. You might want to skip it because you can't be arsed and got it all figured out already.

 

Onwards.

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1. How did the Watcher sense Sammael holding the source?

1. Because men can sense other men holding the Power.

I’ve been over this atleast three times before you brought it up again, so I’m not going to quote all the relevant sections of the books again. It’s proven that male human channelers can only sense another male human channeler holding the source from up close and personal to an absolute maximum of 15 feet, if it’s not less. (see last post on page 10 of this discussion).

Absolute maximum? You've made that up. The Cleansing was felt from miles around. Miles is bigger than 15 feet, therefore you are wrong. And I know you've brought it up before. You're still wrong.

I’m going to say this in the nicest possible way; you are mixing up active channelling with holding the source. Again.

Rands channelling at the cleansing was felt for miles and miles, due to the enormous amounts of Saidar & Saidin. Check out Demandreds thoughts;

 

Without slowing, [Demandred] turned toward the access key. With the amount of saidin pouring through it, there might as well have been a fiery arrow in the sky pointing to al’Thor.

 

I’m sorry, but I really didn’t make anything up, nor am I wrong. For one human male channeler to sense another holding the Source, he must be within atleast 15 feet. (15 feet / 4,5 meters is already stretching what RJ wrote in the most favourable & longest range)

 

Considering your responses so far, you yourself also can’t believe the Watcher was that close to Sammael & Graendal. So what now?

I’ll tell you; the Watcher isn’t a male human. The Watcher was a Lurk with Ishamaels mind.

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2. How did the Watcher see the difference between Sammael & Grandael linked and Sammael and Graendal holding the source individually? How did the Watcher know Sammael ‘had let the link dissolve’?

2. We have seen examples of the presence of one half of the Power being inferred by those can only sense one half, because they take note of an absence. Think about it.

Well, I have thought about that. But I think you need to think on it some more;

A: When channelers made a remark about that, it was only in reaction to channelling and not just holding on to the Source. The big difference is that there are no flows to observe making unnatural ‘bends’ around an absence when noone is channelling, like Sammy & Granny.

B: Even disregarding “A”, you are referring to examples by female channelers solely, since those can actually see flows from other female channelers. If you give me one quote where one human male channeler can see another channelers (female or male) flows bend around an absence, I’ll eat my socks.

 

So, I think your argument here is flawed, unless you say the Watcher is a female channeler who is watching two channelers actively channelling. I think it’s safe to say you are wrong.

My question remains unanswered unless you accept that the Watcher wasn’t all that human.

Apparantly I thought about it more than you did. Also, you fail to truly grasp what my argument is, therefore you cannot correctly assess it as flawed. We know of one way to deduce the presence or absence of a link, but we need not believe it is the only way.

No matter how long I look at this, I think this is really bad manners; first you refer to ‘examples seen in the books’ as an answer for my question. When I point out you are dead wrong and show you why, you blame you being wrong on me misunderstanding what you never posted.

Especially when you retort with something you usually seem to abhor in others; guessing & lack of proof from the books. “We need not believe it is the only way”…?? C’mon. You’re better then this.

What’s so hard about posting; “I stand corrected”?

 

Anyway, I’ll tackle what you suggested this time around too, just for form. But you must have known when you were conjuring up this reply to not have to admit your mistake, it would never stick.

 

Nothing about that section requires any sort of link sensing power that would require the Watcher to be anything other than a human male. It could, for example, be inferred from how saidar and saidin are used - we see a branch get out of Graendal's path, and Sammael is unlikely to do such a thing, not if he didn't have to. If Sammael is unlikely to clear branches from Graendal's path, then Graendal must be using the Source, and as a one man one woman link must be controlled by a man, then there is unlikely to be any link. This requires only such knowledge of the Power as would be known to any man in the AoL, and such knowledge of the character of Sammael (or any of the Chosen, really) as would be well known to any of his fellow Chosen. There could be any number of other ways of telling whether or not there was still a link. Maybe he overheard Greandal asking Sammael to dissolve the link.

First off, the Watcher notices Sammael holding the Source and that Sammael had let the link dissolve prior to either Sammy or Granny channelling anything. So there goes your whole ‘branch’ story down the drain already; it happened after the Watcher already saw that Sammael held the Source & had let the link dissolve.

 

Secondly, even though you posted a non-argument because of the order in which events played out, your reply is also based solely on assumption and speculation. Something you usually try to avoid. Why you’re trying so hard to bend in ways you usually so rudely stomp on when others do the exact same thing, is beyond me.

 

See, there is no shortage of possible answers, yet you put forward your own as if it were the only one.

I didn’t put forward my answer as if it was the only one. I responded to Luckers doing exactly what you say, by stating for a fact that it’s utterly out of the question the Watcher is anyone but Moridin  (reply 60, page 6).

My response merely shows I disagree with him and that there is a another way of looking at that piece of text. I happen to like my way better.

And there is never a shortage of answers if you let your imagination run wild. If they are possible depends on how wild your imagination ran.

I stick to the text, even though you don’t see it that way. *shrugs*

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3. How did the Watcher follow without making sound? Following two channelers holding the source & thus having heightened senses.

3. The Watcher notes they do not even bother to check back to see if any Aiel are following them. Why would he note this if any Aiel following would be automatically detected by heightened senses? It is possible to move through a forest quietly.

There also a big difference between “moving quietly” through a forest and “ghosting without making sound” through said forest. While at first glance the latter can be easily mistaken for the first with a touch of poetic liberty, that doesn’t stick when taking a closer look. Even Aiel make sound when moving through a forest, per Sevanna’s thoughts in the very same chapter.

Aiel are not experienced at moving through a forest.

And Ishamael/ Moridin is?! He’s a philosopher, not a woodsman or a soldier. If Aiel produce sound for a non channeler to pick up (Sevanna), then it’s a given that a philosopher scorning this barbarous, primitive age will make more sound…lots and lots more. Ishamael was as much a ‘city-man’ as Sammael by all accounts, if not more a city-man then Sammael.

Yet our Watcher ‘ghosts soundlesly’ where Sammael stumbles around. That doesn’t mix.

 

And it you yourself brought up the possibility of "poetic liberty", and yet you provide nothing to refute this as a valid hypothesis. If it is poetic liberty, all it means is that he is moving to quietly to draw attention to himself from Sammael and Graendal. Nothing special about that.

I brought up that the ‘poetic liberty’ you use to explain ‘ghosting without sound’ doesn’t hold when taking a closer look. Nowhere did I even say this was a valid hypothesis. I said it was the only way you can make the Watcher appear a regular human being (Moridin), while it has no fundament to do so.

My point was that if you accept that ‘ghosting without sound’ is poetic liberty, thus accepting that the Watcher did make noise, does not mix with following two channelers holding on to the source while the Watcher is able to hear those channelers conversation word for word. You say there’s nothing special about that, but I think that’s very special. Even better; it’s impossible if the Watcher is human.

 

Here’s what a male channeler (Rand) hears while holding the source and trying his best to move as soundlessly as he could in the same book (chapter 41);

“Rand almost channelled [he’s just holding the source],../ /… He hurried forward as fast as he could, as soundlessly as he could. Shattered pavement crunched under his boots with a sound like bones snapping. He hoped it was loud only to his saidin-enhanced ears.”

On different terrain, with no indication of how loud it would be to anyone else, such as someone as far away from Rand as G&S are from the Watcher.

Hey, I agree with you that the Watcher is far away from Granny & Sammy. (then the Watcher could never sense Sammael holding the source and/or sense the link dissolving someway).

 

And your argument about different terrain totally missed the point I’m making;

Rand was moving as soundlessly as he could, yet he still produced sound. Of course he did; he’s only human, after all! And regardless of the terrain, the very small sounds he did produce (crunching rubble) sounded like bones snapping. It doesn’t matter if it’s glass, mud, rubble, leaves, twigs that produce very small sounds. What matters is how enormous the difference is to how saidin-enhanced hearing pick up these small sounds. It’s magnified to the sounds of bones snapping (something very easy to hear).

 

It’s a bit silly to point to the terrain if what counts is how much sound get’s magnified, regardless of terrain. Now I agree with you that it’s hard to come up with hard numbers on how loud someone else with Source-enhanced hearing will hear/  perceive those sounds, but it stand to reason it takes a lot of distance for sounds like ‘bones snapping’ to not being heard anymore. I’m sure you agree that would take more then –say- 15 feet. :)

 

Sorry' date=' no cigar.[/quote']That's alright, I don't smoke. Still, I've destroyed your arguments, and that's enough. Although you accepting that reality would be a nice present.

Wasn’t it you who once told me that “saying that doesn’t make it so”? ;)

You didn’t “destroy” anything, kind sir. Please don’t come on so strong. It looks a tad silly.

And I would be the first to admit if you did prove me wrong.

I don’t care if you smoke or not. Let’s call that cigar ‘poetic liberty’. ;)

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4. Why don’t we see the Watcher stumbling around like Sammael & Graendal? How did he ghost through the trees unhindered?

4. The Watcher notes Sammael "had never really been at home away from the cities." City boy in the forest will have a harder time than experienced huntsman in the forest. This is easy. Did you really need me to tell you?

No, you didn’t need to tell me this, because it’s unfounded to assume Ishy/Moridin has the skills you propose he has. You try to make it sound like logic –which it isn’t- and again, you try to stop discussion by bullying. Alas, to no avail.

You yourself admitted that the Watcher must be Ishamael in transmigrated form. The Watcher claims to have expertise in many areas Sam scorned, in relation to his tracking of the two without being detected. He also says over the years, and SH hasn't been around years.

What part did you not understand about me saying Ishamael has always being linked to fades somehow? Ever since he became Ba’alzamon and received the name Ishamael from humanity. Shaidar Haran has always been around, just not as strong as he currently is (SH v. 0.5 is a fact). You need a re-read; from Eye to Z. :)

 

Ofcourse Shaidar Haran as the Watcher has more expertise in many areas Sammael does not have; he has abilities that are ‘natural’ to Myrddraal (however unnatural those may be). When you can move without producing sound –like the Myrddraal in Chapter 1 & 6 from TEotW can-, it makes you kind of hard (read; impossible) to detect for human hearing – enhanced hearing or not.

 

As a human, Elan Morin was a philosopher. Ishamael still is one –albeit a tad mad-, and he’s a general that never held a field command. Again you try to picture him as “mr. tracking king that can move soundlessly” without any basis of fact anywhere in the books or RJ quotes.

 

I seem to recall he was a philosopher/ theologian. Not the type of man to have the skills you say he has. Very far from it, in fact.

The two are not mutually exclusive realities. Socrates was a soldier.

You are basing your argument on one example from our worldly past? And what about the fact that a soldier doesn’t necessarily even has any skills to move soundlessly through a forest? Who gives a rats arse if Socrates was a soldier? I’m sure that was documented somewhere in a reliable source, though!

 

If ‘not being mutually exclusive’ because of one (!) documented fact (!) that’s not even related to your point (soldier = experienced huntsman??), is the sole fundament for your wild, unlogic assumption that Moridin has ‘experienced huntsmen’ abilities surpassing Aiel & warders alike, you should know you fight a losing battle. You’re grasping at non-existing straws.

 

This argument in and by itself is absurd and nowhere in the whole of WoT it is even hinted at that Elan Morin/ Ishamael/ Moridin has any ‘experienced huntsman’ abilities or comes even close to having any of the abilities that are related to it.

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There’s far more reason to believe that Ishamael or Moridin in their human body would stumble about as both Sammael & Grandeal did (It’s not just Sammy).

[1]And yet the Watcher specifically relates his undetectability to skills he has acquired over the years in areas Sam scorned. Further more, he learned expertise, it is never stated to be some sort of inbuilt ability, quite the reverse, so unless it was a Fade learning these skills... [2]These skills were learned by someone who had been around years, SH hasn't, therefore it cannot be SH, and the Watcher is Ishy v2, therefore Ishy v1 must have had these skills.

[1] You are mixing up facts again; the Watcher specifically relates “standing very still swathed in fancloth” to “learned expertise in many areas over the years”, while you are trying to squeeze in “moving soundlessly” too.

 

[2]Also you are making the mistake again of thinking Shaidar Haran is a new piece on the board; RJ himself said the fade in the prologue of TDR was Shaidar Haran version 0,5. Shaidar Haran has always been around since before the Breaking. How else do you think Ishamael was only “half sealed” in the Bore?

Elan Morin has been learning what he can do as a ‘half-man being’ ever since he gave himself to Shai’tan. Shai’tan is the uber control freak. You don’t think he’d make anyone but himself Nae’Blis, did you? The Nae’Blis is half a step below the Great Lord of the Dark, because –well- one half of it is as close to the very essence of the Great Lord himself that is possible on this side of reality.

Ishy v1 had these skills…as Shaidar Haran v0.5. Easy as 1,2 ,3.

 

Sammael is way more agile & nimbly on his feet then Ishamael is, hands down.

But stuck to the cities.

Yes, that’s why even Sammael does stumble around. I never said anywhere Sammy wasn’t a city boy. I said a very good athlete city-boy would still have an easier time moving through that forest then a philosopher would. You are stating the obious again and missed my point.

Taking everything we know about Elan Morin/ Ishamael/ Moridin into account, he was just as much a ‘city-boy’ as Sammael. Attributing any woodman skills to him is very opposite to what we know of him. Yet the Watcher never stumbles or even pays attention to his direct surroundings and has a much easier time following Sammael & Graendal without detection, knowing that Sammael is the more agile of the two. The Watcher only has eyes & ears for Granny & Sammy, yet he ‘ghosts soundlesly’ without any effort or second thought, where both Sammy & Granny have trouble keeping their balance. That ought to make you wonder, instead of coming up with assigning abilities to Ishamael he doesn’t have.

 

Because, like I said before; we've seen twice in TEotW, Myrddraal can move absolutely soundlesly, literally.

And is this a learned skill?

I don’t know. Is walking a learned skill? It could very well be, for what once was just a human adult male.

Ask RJ how Myrddraal develop their skills; not me. Is channelling a learned skill to sparkers? Not the act itself, but using it effectively is. Your point is moot to start with.

We know for a fact Myrddraal can move soundlessly. That’s very important, considering what the Watcher shows us. That’s logic for you. Pure and simple.

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Simply because the Watcher must be Ishy-recycled in a new body also' date=' considering the Watchers thoughts.[/quote']And Ishy recycled is Moridin. Therefore Moridin is the Watcher. There is no evidence Moridin and Shaidar Haran are the same. You can wave Slayer around, but it is clear that what happened to Slayer did happen, but nothing at all to indicate that it has happened to Moridin and SH.

Well, then I’m sure you have no problem explaining the questions above. I’m just asking you for a reasonable explanation on how the Watcher can be Moridin.

And yes, I can wave Slayer around. And you missed the point; it shows we know Shai’tan can mix two separate beings into one. It’s creates a precedent.

I did not miss the point, boy. But just because RJ has estblished such a thing is possible doesn't mean it has ever happened at any time other than the one we know about. There is nothing to indicate it has happened to Moridin and Shaidar Haran, so why should we believe it has? No reason. And your questions were answered. They weren't even hard to answer. How is it unreasonable that the Watcher is Moridin? It isn't. Also, this isn't Slayer - he was two merged into one. You are proposing one split into two, more or less - Ishy becoming Moridin and SH. Just not at the same time. Which is without precedent.

Boy? It’s so hard to not scorn the other, is it not? Anyway…

You are a boy, next to me. I don't know of anyone on here who isn't young enough to be my grandchild.

It’s your arrogance and insolence like this that had me re-write this post twice, just to stay civil where you think age gives you more leeway. It’s the quality of the post that matters; not the colour of your hair or the length of the hair on your ears. I don’t really care if you’re older or younger. And if you’re an adult, neither should you.

 

There’s more then enough to indicate it. You just wave every indication away.

Because they are nothing.

Oh man. Are you going to stuff your fist in your mouth when you read AMoL. :D

*snickers*

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I never said “one split into two”. How is a fade & man merged into one being “one spilt into two”?

What do you mean “not at the same time”..? I never said that…

Don’t try to put words in my mouth.

But the Fade still has the memories of the man - you admitted the Watcher had to be Ishamael. So Ishamael is both man and Myrddraal, but only one at a time. So Ishy v2 has been split in 2. Two bodies, one mind.

No, two bodies & two minds (what was left of both to begin with anyway. probably one mind now) became part of one being. Like Slayer is 24/7, so is the creature that is the Nae’Blis 24/7. Like Slayer, the Nae’Blis can switch which personality he’ll be at any point in time. Slayer can’t be both Luc & Isam at the same time, but he is one being with the memories of the whole.

You don’t really want to understand me, but that’s fine. :)

 

And about what you thought were easy answers to my questions; I’m sorry, but I just showed you they are flawed. I'll be the first to believe they were not hard to come up with as you stated, but then again, they’re as wrong as they were easy.

No, easy and right, and I destroyed your counterarguments with ease.

You must be reading different books… and a different thread. What’s with you and “destroying” anyway, Conan? Aren’t we just having a discussion here? The word you were looking for is “refute”. Destroy…sounds so full of anger and frustration.

 

I think I’ve proved that the Watcher can’t be a male human being. But when grabbed together form a pattern.

No, they don't. You have not shown the Watcher cannot be a male human being.

I have. You just don’t understand the difference between ‘channeling’ & ‘holding the Source’ that well. You’re also unwilling to see that no human being can move and make no sound on a bed of brown leaves in a forest for two channelers that are holding the source to pick up when that being can hear those two channelers perfectly.

We’ll get there. And if not you, then perhaps a few others on Dragonmount.

 

How come Aginor is described as 'the second most powerful man? This is no mistake, but if LTT & Ishi are both ‘men’, wouldn’t Aginor be the third most powerful? RJ isn’t referring to Forsaken men only, since he included LTT at the end of the sentence, but on first glance it might look like this.

Yes, he is.

It doesn’t say ‘the second most powerful forsaken (man)’. It says ‘second most powerful man’. LTT was included in the equation. I thought it was common knowledge LTT wasn’t part of the Forsaken?

He wasn't. But look at the context: about one of the Chosen, in a section of the book dealing with the Chosen. So the reference is to the Chosen, most likely. Aginor is the second most powerful man in the Chosen, behind Ishamael and LTT, who is on the side of the Light but is as strong as Ishy..

You really didn’t need to explain the obvious there. I know how easy it was to fall for it. And it’s ok that you did too.

 

That doesn’t make you right; that sentence should have said ‘third most powerful man’ if LTT, Ishamael & Aginor are all men. So either RJ made a boo-boo, or it means LTT or Ishamael wasn’t what RJ considers 'a man'.

Or, depending on context, it was referring to male Chosen, in which case he is second strongest, and he also stands beneath LTT in strength.

Tsk tsk. Even when I spell it out, you refuse to see logic. If it was a reference to male Chosen only, then the sentence is wrong. The context of the first paragraph of Aginor’s section is all about Aginor’s life before he went over to the Shadow, by the way.

 

You just refuse to see logic & reason. I’ll explain –once more- in small steps that are easier to understand.

By your (flawed) logic, the following sentences would all be correct, considering your so-called context on Forsaken males and the rest of your twisting and turning:

 

“The third most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor and lovingly called Cinderella by the other twelve Forsaken, came close to rivalling Lews Therin, Jaric Mondoran and Haindar in strength.”

By your logic, the above sentence is grammatically correct and –given the context you refer to– we can conclude from it that Aginor is the third most powerful Forsaken man. Wrong!

 

“The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivalling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.”

By your logic, the above sentence is grammatically correct and –given the context you refer to - we can conclude from it that Aginor is the second most powerful Forsaken man. Wrong!

 

“The most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivalling Lews Therin in strength.”

By your logic, the above sentence is grammatically correct and –given the context you refer to - we can conclude from it that Aginor is the most powerful Forsaken man. Wrong!

 

“The most powerful man, called Ishar Morrid once, came close to rivalling Lews Therin in strength.”

…..uhhh.. what?

 

“The most powerful man, <this bit is irrelevant grammar-wise but it keeps fooling Mr Ares and just about everyone else>, came close to rivalling Lews Therin in strength.”

……

 

I hope you understand it this time?

I can’t explain it any more obvious or spell it out any better;

RJ doesn’t consider Ishamael to be ‘a man’. That’s because he’s a freakish ‘creature 24/7’.

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The Shadow’s hounds present in Slayer (one alive & one dead) can be male, but at the same time not be considered men.

He seems like a man to me. True, he is changed, and can do things other men can't. But so can channelers. Are they men? Yes. So why can't Slayer be considered a man? He can be.

Well, what seems to be, isn’t what needs to be. Straw-man comparison between Slayer and male channelers. So the conclusion you make, is based on absolutely zilch. I’d rather trust RJ writing how Perrin perceives Slayer, then your deceptive fallacy.

 

The man’s [Luc’s] smell stood out among the others, cold and separate, too, almost as if he had nothing in common with the men around him, not even humanity. (TSR, Chapter 40)

 

A vagrant puff of air brought him a cold smell, human yet not, and he smiled. [Perrin smelling Slayer in TAR] (TSR, Chapter 53)

 

The two men [slayer and Luc] could not have been more dissimilar. And yet . . . That cold smell. They did not smell the same, but both had an icy, hardly human scent. [Perrin comparing Slayers smell to Luc’s] (TSR, Chapter 53)

That he seems like a a man to you, is pretty irrelevant when RJ’s words tell us Slayer has nothing in common ‘with the men around him, not even humanity. How can you hold up that Slayer is a man, when -at the very best-, he can be called “hardly human”, is beyond me if you’re all that hung-up about facts and logic.

Slayer is male and at the same time nowhere close to what RJ considers to be a man, because RJ writes so, per Perrin his nose. You said Slayer still is a man. Dead wrong (pun intended).

 

Isam and Luc used to be men. One died, one lived & now both are.

Elan Morin used to be a man. That doesn’t disprove he can no longer be considered a man when he became Ishamael (that was was started this silly bit of quotes).

And in fact, explains perfectly how Aginor can be the second most powerful man, when Aginor is compared in strenght to both LTT & Ishamael who are both stronger in the Power.

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About Sharbon; you think Ba’alzamon would jeopardize one of his ‘dogs’ in a position where that dog can command thousands by showing up as a Fade in front of non-darkfriends and asking them to go fetch him some apples?

Re-read, boy:

I know how you enjoy annoying others even if they kindly asked to not be insulting, so I’ll indulge you your petty pleasures.

And about re-reading; I do. All the time, in fact. This forum. The books. For the past –pfooooh- 15 years now. This forum. The books. You godda love these books.

 

"He could easily decide to go and buy fruit without the Myrddraal telling him to." And that Fade was already willing to jeopardise Carridin by showing up in the Fortress, and telling him to put the Shadow's orders before The Children's. Why did Ish decide to appear as a Fade anyway? You still haven't answered that.

You could do with a few thorough re-reads of the books yourself too, Mister. Servants don’t go wandering off when they are supposed to ready the rooms as requested by the Inquisitor of the Hand of the Light, who happens to be your strict master. Here.. I’ll help with a small re-read:

 

“Sharbon!” For once his body servant did not appear. The man was supposed to be readying the rooms. “The Light burn you, Sharbon! Where are you?”

A movement caught the corner of his eye, and he turned ready to shrivel Sharbon with his curses.

…/ /…

He was alone except for the Myrddraal, and perhaps Sharbon—Where is that cursed man? It would be good to have someone to share the Halfman’s stare, even if the other would have to be disposed of afterwards—but still he lowered his voice.

…/ /…

 

The door opened, and Sharbon hurried in, a plump man with a basket in his arms.

He stopped to stare at Carridin. “Master, are you all right? Forgive me for not being here, master, but I went to buy fruits for your—”

With his good hand Carridin struck the basket from Sharbon’s hands, sending withered winter apples rolling across the carpets, and backhanded the man across the face.

 

“Forgive me, master,” Sharbon whispered.

“Fetch me paper and pen and ink,” Carridin snarled. “Hurry, fool! I must send orders.” But which? Which? As Sharbon scurried to obey, Carridin stared at the gouges in the tabletop and shivered.

We know that Sharbon went to buy fruits because of Carridins guest, so the two (Sharbon & Shaidar Haran version 0,5) did meet off stage, before Carridin entered his quarters. Now, I don’t know about you, but Sharbon doesn’t strike me as the kind of servant to disobey his lord. He’s a very meek servant who “for once” did not appear when his lord called for him. Per Carridins thoughts we know this is the first time Sharbon isn’t where he’s supposed to be. So, either he had a conversation with his lords guest and asked how he could serve as any good servant would. And he left the guest alone only per request to get fruit for him. Or he was compelled. He didn’t just go wander off to buy fruit without talking. That doesn’t make any sense.

 

I don’t believe for a split-second that a lowest of the Children (Sharbon) would refer to a Fade –even with hood up- as Carradin’s “guest”;

And I don't believe that Sharbon was ever stated to be one of the Children. He is Carridin's servant, and a servant need not necessarily be one of the Children.

It wasn’t stated flat out, but again that’s just called common sense, Mr Ares.

In the very Heart of the Children of the Light’s Fortress, the personal body servant of the Inquisitor of the Hand of the Light wouldn’t just be someone who could like Aes Sedai, now could it? It’s not like Sharbon tends the gardens around the centre of power of the Children; he’s a personal body servant to one of the highest ranks. Of course Sharbon is devoted to all that the Children stand for; if he would suspect even for a second that Carridins guest was a potential darkfriend –or worse, he’d be running for guards instead of apples.

 

He’d be running for guards the second he was out of the room.

Apparently your copy of the book has far more information on the character of the person in question than mine does.

Nah.I just pick up the stuff that is there, but not spelled out for your liking. Luckily for you, I don’t mind explaining so close to AMoL.

I’m not like some who says they have to read everything literally, but at the same time build air-bridges from nowhere to Socrates when it’s all that keeps their scarecrow arguments alive.

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So, because of the fact that nowhere in the 14 stories published (including NS, BWB & Strike@SG) it is mentioned that a human being can step outside the pattern, except in bubbles of space-time that are still attached to said pattern (aka vacuoles), is the fundament for your statement?!?

Think about that…

My response; “no comment”. (it needs none, tbh)

My statemant was that there was nothing against it. You asked me to prove a negative. And most of the time there was nothing at all of any relevance to this point. And where is it stated that this was the only way?

There’s nothing to say Semirhage & Demandred weren’t with Sammael & Graendal. They were just ignored. There’s nothing to say against Sammael having three legs. Noone just ever thought about it or mentioned it. When nothing’s there to indicate it, it’s a bullshit argument to begin with. I come up with argument after argument for my views. You just say; “nothing says it isn’t possible”. Don’t make me laugh. Again, all I have to say is “practice what you preach so vehemently “.

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Anyway, logically: If the Watcher is Ishamael reborn and Ishamael reborn is Moridin, then the Watcher is Moridin. I don't see anyone (not even Mik) disagreeing with either the first or second parts, therefore no-one should disagree with the third. Watcher was Moridin. End of debate.

I agree with it all, except that last line. Perfect logic, until you say "end of debate". Not the end of the debate if Ishamaels mind inhabits two bodies.

We have no reason to suspect Ishamael's mind of inhabiting more than one body.

Au contraire. We do have reasons, but you’re just not ready to admit there is ground for it. That's ok.

 

Slayers mind inhabits two bodies; Luc & Isam. Both bodies share that same mind. One mind does the thinking at any given time, yet that one mind holds memories for both. Luc can remember what Isam did & Luc knows what Isam likes. And vice versa.

Slayer's minds. He has two, although each knows the other well and the two are similar, as well as sharing memories. Two minds.

Care to explain how two minds share their thoughts and memories? Why are they similar? I think Slayer has two personalities, sharing one mind. In Slayer we don’t see Luc & Isam thinking at the same time; one thinks about the other. They don’t both think at any give point in time. It makes more sense. *shrugs* Whatever though.

 

I don't see what's so hard to understand about the concept.

The concept is easily grasped. It is also utterly unsupported. There is nothing to indicate they are the same being, and plenty against.

Again, I’m just going to use your own words; You saying that doesn’t make it so, Mister. :D

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The prickling vanished from the watcher’s skin as she released saidar as well.

At first glance, the prickling vanishes from the Watchers skin because Graendal releases Saidar. But this is not the case. We can see this, because in that sentence, RJ sneakily added the seemingly unimportant words 'as well'. Had those two words not been there, then the vanishing of the prickling skin would have ben a result of the release of Saidar by Grandeal.

Not so, Mik. She releases the weave, and she releases saidar, as indicated by the prickiling sensation vanishing, as well as releasing the weave. She releases saidar as well as the weave, and releasing saidar is what the absence of the prickling sensation indicates. It is clear in the words.

Don’t make me teach you English again; the words “as well” clearly indicate no direct relationship between the two, but that they happened simultaneously. *shrugs*

Suit yourself.

 

Cheers,

Mik the boy.

 

[Swigaro]

A few quick points. 

 

Mik, most of your early (in your post) arguments as to why The Watcher can not be a human male do not quite fly.  They are all based on what can and can not be done or sensed by a man holding Saidin.  We know for a fact that Ishamael/Moridin channels the True Power exclusively.  We can speculate what is or is not possible for a man holding the TP, but saying the Watcher can not be a man because what was done, can not be done with Saidin does not work. 

 

Second.  I do not find it at all out of character that Ishi-din picked up woodsman skills over the centuries, nor that these skills could be augmented with the True Power.  In addition to being a Philosopher/Theologian, Ishamael is also a Blademaster.  If he took the time to become a master of the blade, what’s to say he wouldn't have spent time in other non-academic pursuits, especially when he says he did so while demonstrating mastery of said woodsman skills.  Granted, if we had never seen him do anything that stretched the boundaries of the image of an academic, as is the case with Aginor, you would have a point, but Ishamael/Moridin has presented himself more as a renaissance man than as a stuffy academic.  You do not try to say that it isn't Ishamael's mind, at least.  He is moving silently in a forest.  He says, "its a good thing I studied things that Sammael did not."  If he was silent because of being a fade, wouldn't he have said, "Its a good thing that I have powers that Sammael could never have?"  He implies that his silence is based on things learned, not things granted.  I just don't see it. 

 

Finally, you mention that Carridin's manservant has to be completely devoted to the cause of the CotL.  I do not find this to be a forgone conclusion.  Remember that Pedron Nial's manservant, Balwar, while devoted to Nial certainly didn't have unwavering loyalty to the CotL.  Much the opposite.  What does he do after Nial's death, go and attach himself to someone the CotL consider a Darkfriend.  Especially considering Carridin's loyalties, I find it very hard to believe that any personal aid of Carridin's would have stronger ties to the organization than to himself.

 

[Majsju]

Funny thing about Carridins servant is that he never says that the fruit was for Carridins "guest". He is cut off after 'your...', and he could just as well have been meaning to say "your dinner", "your reading time", "your whatever-you-can-think-of".

 

Funny thing about philosophers, not all of them spend 24/7 in a comfy chair. Try wiki Thoreau...

[Mik]

A few quick points. 

 

Mik, most of your early (in your post) arguments as to why The Watcher can not be a human male do not quite fly.  They are all based on what can and can not be done or sensed by a man holding Saidin.

Hey Swig. You've brought up the one point that is a blind-spot in my argument. But on the other hand, you must admit it's the only logical way to look at it. For anything else, we have no basis. No ground-rules.

 

We know for a fact that Ishamael/Moridin channels the True Power exclusively.

Wowowow. Slow down there, Swigaro.

Here you go wrong. What we know for a fact, is that Demandred thinks Moridin must be using TP exclusively. We also know for a fact, Demandred hardly ever even used the True Power when he was allowed (it's somewhere in WH). You're giving Demandreds thoughts, based on his own almost non-existant experiences with True Power way too much credit, if you take those as fact for what Moridin does or doesn't do. That's a dangerous asumption. One RJ would love everyone making though.

So, no. Moridin uses the True Power lots, but this isn't fact saying he isn't using the One Power when it suits his needs.

 

We can speculate what is or is not possible for a man holding the TP, but saying the Watcher can not be a man because what was done, can not be done with Saidin does not work.

Well, the reasoning behind it is a lot cleaner & based on all the facts as written in the books so far. WhereasyYou need speculation at the very first step of your reasoning to keep the possibility of the Watcher being human open. I'm not saying it can't be right, but I think it's really thin ice.

The fun part is, RJ wrote his story so, that it all looked so damned logic, while it actually isn't with what we do know. On top of that, I've shown you more places where one can place big question marks... Ah well. We'll see in AMoL, won't we?  :D

 

Second.  I do not find it at all out of character that Ishi-din picked up woodsman skills over the centuries, nor that these skills could be augmented with the True Power.

I do find it very OOC for Ishamael to have these skills. As Ishamael, he invested all his energies into having the Dark One freed. Before the Bore was drilled, he was a famed philosopher and even now he still is but a tad on the mad-side. We never see any ability that hints at him having woodman-skills. For all his life before the Bore was drilled, he's been living in a care-free society with huge cities where the sky wasn't even the limit, with the One Power to do his dirty work. He scorns anything 'less'.

 

Yes, he could have superb woodsman skills, and for the same money he could be a master blacksmith, or a brilliant scientist, or a world-champion athlete. The problem is; all these things are totally unsupported by anything in the whole of what makes the Wheel of Time series.

 

And yes, stopping sound could probably be done with the True Power. The problem with this is, that it's totally unsuported by the chapter text, that we never saw it done before and that the text literally said sound wasn't produced by his movement. Not that it was silenced, stopped, etc.

 

Both your points require unfundamented speculation. Not that they sound wrong to the ear, though. I just think RJ has you fooled.

Everyone is free to believe how to interpret the Wheel, as long as they don't state a flat out lie.

I just wanted to shed a different light on events, because some think it's all set in stone, because I can and because I like that view a lot more then the current 'on-line truth'.

It fits the whole picture much better, in my opinion.

 

In addition to being a Philosopher/Theologian, Ishamael is also a Blademaster.  If he took the time to become a master of the blade, what’s to say he wouldn't have spent time in other non-academic pursuits, especially when he says he did so while demonstrating mastery of said woodsman skills.

First off; being able to fight with a weapon can be pretty usefull when you know you're going to fight a war. The only Blades he truly Mastered are the Asha'man though. :)

 

Second; Excuse me, but a true woodsman wouldn't use fancloth, now would he? How is standing very still completely covered in a fabric that makes you blend in your surroundings by default an 'experienced woodsman' skill?

 

Granted, if we had never seen him do anything that stretched the boundaries of the image of an academic, as is the case with Aginor, you would have a point, but Ishamael/Moridin has presented himself more as a renaissance man than as a stuffy academic.

If you say so. If being a 'renaissance man' gives you the ability to move more silent then a mouse in a forest, I guess you're right.

 

You do not try to say that it isn't Ishamael's mind, at least.  He is moving silently in a forest.  He says, "its a good thing I studied things that Sammael did not."  If he was silent because of being a fade, wouldn't he have said, "Its a good thing that I have powers that Sammael could never have?"  He implies that his silence is based on things learned, not things granted.  I just don't see it.

You make the same mistake as Mr Ares, by thinking the Watcher was thinking about making no sound in reference to the things learned. That's not the case persé. And besides, what's so wierd about learning? Like I said earlier. Sparkers will channel, but they master it by learning. Humans will walk, but they master it by practice.

 

And about the Watcher thinking "Its a good thing that I have powers that Sammael could never have?". First off, isn't this a straw-man argument again? Just because it wasn't written in an easier way, doesn't make what you want it to mean less impossible. I'm not RJ. I guess he didn't want everyone and their dog picking it up before he wrote his grand finale. That's always been my main reason for shutting up so long. If I'm right, won't I have spoiled a big surprise? Meh.

 

Finally, you mention that Carridin's manservant has to be completely devoted to the cause of the CotL.  I do not find this to be a forgone conclusion.  Remember that Pedron Nial's manservant, Balwar, while devoted to Nial certainly didn't have unwavering loyalty to the CotL.  Much the opposite.  What does he do after Nial's death, go and attach himself to someone the CotL consider a Darkfriend.  Especially considering Carridin's loyalties, I find it very hard to believe that any personal aid of Carridin's would have stronger ties to the organization than to himself.

So you don't think Balwer would run for guards if a black cloacked stranger with a voice like dead leaves and a stare that causes you to be paralyzed with fear was waiting for Balwers master, Pedron Nial?

 

Balwer saw an organisation screwed royally to it's very core when he left after Nial was murdered.

Sharbon does not share Carridins loyalties, per Carridins thoughts about having to dispose of him.

Your points are nice arguments, but I don't think they're enough to assume a body servant would fetch apples instead of guards.

 

Funny thing about Carridins servant is that he never says that the fruit was for Carridins "guest". He is cut off after 'your...', and he could just as well have been meaning to say "your dinner", "your reading time", "your whatever-you-can-think-of".

Not really. Carridin clearly thinks about what his personal body servant was supposed to be doing. He also thinks this was the only time Sharbon wasn't where he was supposed to be. RJ cut the sentence short, because he didn't want it to be obvious. He wanted to keep a surprise and still be able to show his audience the clues were always there. The only logical thing Sharbon could say was "your guest", given the whole scene.

 

Again, we'll just have to wait for AMoL. Not long now... what is a year, when the past 16 have felt like eternity?

 

Funny thing about philosophers, not all of them spend 24/7 in a comfy chair. Try wiki Thoreau...

Ahaha. There's this Dutch saying that translates roughly as; "the exception defines the rule".

What's so hard about admitting philosophers aren't in any way, shape or form 'experienced woodsmen'..?

 

Cheers,

Mik

[Majsju]

For all his life before the Bore was drilled, he's been living in a care-free society with huge cities where the sky wasn't even the limit, with the One Power to do his dirty work. He scorns anything 'less'.

 

Care to provide a quote how him scorning "anything less" means he never spent any time outdoors?

For all we know, Ishamael did his best thinking while walking out in the woods, far away from a society the titles of his books more than indicates that he had some major issues with.

Just looking at the physical descriptions we have of Ishamael shows us a man who clearly did not sit on his arse all day long.

 

And yes, stopping sound could probably be done with the True Power. The problem with this is, that it's totally unsuported by the chapter text, that we never saw it done before and that the text literally said sound wasn't produced by his movement. Not that it was silenced, stopped, etc.

 

RJ stated more than once that he thought he could expect the readers to figure things out for themselves, without him having to put every single little detail out there. Now, if we do know that Moridin used TP in that very chapter, and we do know that he managed to move without making a sound, should it really be necessary for RJ to add "He wove TP so and so", in order for us to connect the dots?

 

Not really. Carridin clearly thinks about what his personal body servant was supposed to be doing. He also thinks this was the only time Sharbon wasn't where he was supposed to be. RJ cut the sentence short, because he didn't want it to be obvious. He wanted to keep a surprise and still be able to show his audience the clues were always there. The only logical thing Sharbon could say was "your guest", given the whole scene.

 

No, it is not the only "logical thing". It is not even the most logical thing.

Why would SH send Sharbon running on a fools errand, instead of simply killing him for seeing what he should not have seen? Especially given what happens in that scene, SH threatens to kill Carridins entire family, a threat we know became reality. What better way to illustrate the point than to demonstrate on a useless servant?

Having SH send Sharbon to get some fruit is completely out of character, even without us knowing what SH actually is, a vessel for the DO.

 

Ahaha. There's this Dutch saying that translates roughly as; "the exception defines the rule".

What's so hard about admitting philosophers aren't in any way, shape or form 'experienced woodsmen'..?

 

Sorry, but I do not tend to draw any conclusions based on Dutch sayings.

It is quite possible for a philosopher to have achieved skills other than sitting in a chair thinking all day. Especially when we are talking about a philosopher who has not only the OP, but the TP as well to his disposal, as well as experience from the War of Power.

[Swigaro]

Second; Excuse me, but a true woodsman wouldn't use fancloth, now would he? How is standing very still completely covered in a fabric that makes you blend in your surroundings by default an 'experienced woodsman' skill?

 

Like, Lan for example, wearing his Warder's Cloak, a garment made of Fancloath, while scouting in the blight?  An experienced woodsman, unless he was stupidly arrogant, or in no danger what so ever would use every tool he had at his disposal.  Granted, standing very still while covered in a fabric that makes you blend in is not inherently a skill of an experienced woodsman.  Shadowing someone, completely unnoticed through the woods is. 

 

Wowowow. Slow down there, Swigaro.

Here you go wrong. What we know for a fact, is that Demandred thinks Moridin must be using TP exclusively. We also know for a fact, Demandred hardly ever even used the True Power when he was allowed (it's somewhere in WH). You're giving Demandreds thoughts, based on his own almost non-existant experiences with True Power way too much credit, if you take those as fact for what Moridin does or doesn't do. That's a dangerous asumption. One RJ would love everyone making though.

So, no. Moridin uses the True Power lots, but this isn't fact saying he isn't using the One Power when it suits his needs.

 

We have Demandread's comment, and the scene at Shadar Logoth where he clearly uses TP.  Because Demandread's comment is not the only evidence, I find it short sighted to discount it just because he is a bad guy.  We know its use can not be detected.  Why, then would Moridin, use anything else when stalking two powerful channelers?

 

On a side note, a thought occured to me, and Mik, this isn't directed solely at you (but I would be interested in your thoughts). RJ has stated that there is a genetic component and a soul based component to the ability to channel (or at least that is my hasty recollection of his statements).  This is why suitable replacement bodies must be found for the DO to Trasmigrate souls of fallen Forsaken.  As we have never seen any other Fade channeling, is it even possible that SH could provide a body for a transmigrated soul and maintain channeling ability, Saidin or TP?  We have examples of non-human beings in Rand Land (Ogier, various created shadowspawn), but channeling seems to be something exclusive to humans.  Granted, as there is, to my knowledge, no examples to support or deny this claim, but does anyone have any thoughts?