Did Siuan lie in The Dragon Reborn?

[Werthead]

"You are a fine judge of character child," Siuan tells Nynaeve after Nynaeve has complained about Laras (the Tower Mistress of the Kitchens) being harsh and unfair. She proceeds to tell Nynaeve that Laras is actually quite nice and secretly asked for leniency for Nynaeve and her friends during their punishment work in the kitchens. So plainly Siuan doesn't think Nynaeve was a particularly good judge of character.

 

So how does this work then?

 

"To speak no word that is not true...unless you are being sarcastic or aiming for comic effect."  ;D

[Luckers]

RJ explained that Aes Sedai could be sarcastic, or utter pointless threats, like Siuan saying "If this happens i'll gut you like fish". The destinction is in whether or not the Aes Sedai thinks they'll be believed in their comment--Siuan in both knew that the person she was talking to wasn't going to take her words literally.

 

He explained it using an example. An Aes Sedai might sarcastically say that the sky is green, but not if she was talking to a blind person who might actually believe her (or something like that).

 

The trigger for the oaths to come into effect is the intention of deceit. The tonal inflection of sarcasm and the context change the meaning of the words, thus uttering them isn't a lie.

[Tyrell]

That really doesn't make any sense Luckers :/ I'm afraid this is a case of RJ covering his ass. It isn't "I swear not to deceive anyone" or anything along those lines, but "I swear to speak no word that is not true". It isn't true then they shouldn't be able to say it.

 

By the sarcasm logic an AS could convince herself that the person they are talking to would understand that they were being sarcastic and tell any lie they please.

[Luckers]

The oaths are adaptive and situational. We've known that all along. The Aes Sedai's mental belief is the deciding factor of what is and is not forbidden--they can lie, for instance, if they believe it to be true. That too is defies 'speaking no word that is not true'.

 

With that well established i don't see it to be a leap for RJ to say that if they are fully aware what they are saying won't be taken as true by those that they are speaking to, they can do so. These are not magical bindings, they are constrictions on the persons mind, and they restrict the bound person to obey the limitations as they percieve them.

 

Indeed, if you consider the nature of language--which is itself adaptive--it makes perfect sense. Tone and context changes the meaning of words. Technically, the words used by dictionary description mean one thing, but contextually by situation and tone they mean something else.

 

And all that matters is what the Aes Sedai intended them to mean, as that is where the restrictions fall.

 

 

 

 

[Sabio]

Well if you want a possible lie from Siuan, I like TGH.

 

"That would be something to worry us, Daughter," the Amyrlin Seat said, "if it were true.  But the Forsaken are still bound."  She glances at Moiraine, looking troubled for an instant before she schooled her features.  "Even if the seals are weakening, the Forsaken are still bound."

 

Now to me she has either said a lie or suspects she has becuase of her look to Moiraine.  She surely suspects it isn't true.

[Luckers]

No, she knows the seals are weakening because Moiraine brought her a broken one, but Moiraine did not tell her of Aginor and Balthemel.

 

The reason she glanced at Moiraine was because of the broken seal--it troubles her, and she is the source of her knowing that, and the only other person to know it.

 

We know Siuan was bound by the oaths.

[Roxinos]

The oaths are adaptive and situational.

 

Indeed. Even more, there is no universal truth. The Oaths are subject to the Oathspeaker. They are not bound to a higher power which knows the truth beyond the Oathspeaker.

[triadruid]

The Oaths are explicitly NOT situational. They're only as strong as the precise wording (you can lie if you don't know it's a lie, or attack something you believe to be Shadowspawn probably), but Siuan should not have been able to make that statement about Nynaeve.

[Roxinos]

but Siuan should not have been able to make that statement about Nynaeve.

 

This is wrong because it is based on the idea that the Oaths are not situational and subjectively defined. You're right that they're only as strong as the precise wording, but the wording of the Oath in question is such that it allows for leeway.

 

You even go on to contradict your own statement. If the Oaths are not situational than you would not be able to lie at all, regardless of whether you know it is a lie or not. The Oaths ARE situational. Siuan was allowed that statement because it was not to be taken seriously.

[Nateku]

Okay, so in Winter's Heart I believe it is, when Pevara and Seaine are hunting Black sisters, they release themselves from the three oaths to make sure they can. I do remember that Seaine had much fun saying that Tar Valon was paved with cheese and that Pevara had a beard. Obviously, she and Pevara both knew that the streets of Tar Valon were not cheese and that Pevara's face was beard-free. Under Luckers' logic, she would've been able to say this without having to release herself from the Three Oaths. Why then did she have so much fun saying these things?

[Roxinos]

Because it is a blatant lie. There was no sarcasm involved. They were honestly and truly saying "The streets of Tar Valon are paved with cheese" with the intent to be dishonest. They knew it was a lie, and they were saying it specifically because it was a lie. Something which they could not have done under the Oaths. And that's why they were having fun.

 

I don't know if you know, but there is little fun in sarcasm. It is fun, but for someone who hasn't been able to flat-out lie in a very long time, I'd imagine sarcasm gets stale.

[Sabio]

No, she knows the seals are weakening because Moiraine brought her a broken one, but Moiraine did not tell her of Aginor and Balthemel.

 

The reason she glanced at Moiraine was because of the broken seal--it troubles her, and she is the source of her knowing that, and the only other person to know it.

 

We know Siuan was bound by the oaths.

 

I agree but can you speak a lie if you suspect its not true or do you have to know for a fact its not true?

[Charlz Guybon]

Well if you want a possible lie from Siuan, I like TGH.

 

"That would be something to worry us, Daughter," the Amyrlin Seat said, "if it were true.  But the Forsaken are still bound."  She glances at Moiraine, looking troubled for an instant before she schooled her features.  "Even if the seals are weakening, the Forsaken are still bound."

 

Now to me she has either said a lie or suspects she has becuase of her look to Moiraine.  She surely suspects it isn't true.

I thought she was able to say it because she knew Aginor and Balthamel were dead and didn't believe any of the others had been freed yet.

[Luckers]

The Oaths are explicitly NOT situational. They're only as strong as the precise wording (you can lie if you don't know it's a lie, or attack something you believe to be Shadowspawn probably), but Siuan should not have been able to make that statement about Nynaeve.

 

No offence mate, but not only have we seen it in the books, we also have RJ's direct word on the matter. The Oaths are subjective to the bound individuals perceptions of the situation around her--i.e. subjective and situational.

 

Okay, so in Winter's Heart I believe it is, when Pevara and Seaine are hunting Black sisters, they release themselves from the three oaths to make sure they can. I do remember that Seaine had much fun saying that Tar Valon was paved with cheese and that Pevara had a beard. Obviously, she and Pevara both knew that the streets of Tar Valon were not cheese and that Pevara's face was beard-free. Under Luckers' logic, she would've been able to say this without having to release herself from the Three Oaths. Why then did she have so much fun saying these things?

 

It's not actually my logic, its RJ's... I'm just trying to explain it to you.

 

Language is adaptive and situational--what you are saying is adapted by who you are saying it to, the context in which you are saying it, and the tone which you are using.

 

Try it.

 

"You're a fool." Jane said sharply, slapping Alex's hand away.

"You're a fool." Jane sneered. Alex blushed and sat down.

"You're a fool." Jane laughed, stepping into Alex's embrace.

"You're a fool." Jane sighed, yet still took Alex's words to heart.

 

The context, the bodylanguage, the person she is speaking to completely change the comments. In saying 'you're a fine judge of character' to Nynaeve in a dirisive tone Siuan is not lying--she's diriding, the point of what she said is adapted by the method in which she said it, thus making it truth.

 

In the cases you listed the individual was talking to herself--the tone, context and second person all make it a lie, however fancifal. In another situation however it could have been the truth.

 

"The Aes Sedai should go mate with Asha'men." Yukiri said.

"Yes, and Tar Valon is paved in cheese." Seaine retorted.

 

That the oaths would have allowed.

[Roxinos]

I agree but can you speak a lie if you suspect its not true or do you have to know for a fact its not true?

 

I believe you're confusing lies and misinformation.

 

You can be told the truth, and yet have the truth be simple misinformation. You can believe that what you were told is truth, but have doubts about it. And then you can spread it. The doubt comes from believing misinformation rather than believing a lie. But yes, you can doubt the validity of a statement and still spread it along, so long as you believe it to be true. As long as you don't think what you're saying is a lie.

 

Siuan knew that that seal was broken. She knew that the seals were weakening, she was just worried about the fact that the seals were weakening, and she shares in that worry with Moiraine. That really doesn't have to do with your question, but it was a good question and I answered it to the best of my ability.

[Sabio]

I agree but can you speak a lie if you suspect its not true or do you have to know for a fact its not true?

 

I believe you're confusing lies and misinformation. 

You can be told the truth, and yet have the truth be simple misinformation. You can believe that what you were told is truth, but have doubts about it. And then you can spread it. The doubt comes from believing misinformation rather than believing a lie. But yes, you can doubt the validity of a statement and still spread it along, so long as you believe it to be true. As long as you don't think what you're saying is a lie.

 

Siuan knew that that seal was broken. She knew that the seals were weakening, she was just worried about the fact that the seals were weakening, and she shares in that worry with Moiraine. That really doesn't have to do with your question, but it was a good question and I answered it to the best of my ability.

 

Its not an easy question to try and answer.  I am not sure how to answer it either.

 

Maybe phrasing it, "Can you speak something you suspect is not true or do you have to know for a fact its not true in order not to be able to speak it?"

 

My would guess would be yes since Siuan made her comment about the forsaken being sealed, I took her look at Moraine meant she at least suspected/maybe had her doubts about wether it was true or not. 

 

 

[Roxinos]

My would guess would be yes since Siuan made her comment about the forsaken being sealed, I took her look at Moraine meant she at least suspected/maybe had her doubts about wether it was true or not.

 

I don't think she doubts Moiraine. There is no reason to suggest she would. There would be plenty of reason for her to be uneasy about the seals weakening as Moiraine has told her they are. Siuan has trusted Moiraine for some 50 or 60 years (can't remember how long they were in the Tower before they became Aes Sedai and Moiraine went traveling). It is silly to suggest that Siuan was distrust Moiraine about anything. They were in it together from beginning to end.

 

"Can you speak something you suspect is not true or do you have to know for a fact its not true in order not to be able to speak it?"

 

Ya, that's why I said it was a good question. And I'm not sure I can answer it any differently from how I did. And the way I did was speculation. I don't think there is any evidence towards your situation. But I could be wrong.

[Sabio]

Oops sorry, I didn't mean it to sound as if she mistrusted Moiraine, I meant to say that I think Siuan wasn't totally sure the Forsaken were still sealed away when she said the comment to Verin. 

[Roxinos]

Oops sorry, I didn't mean it to sound as if she mistrusted Moiraine, I meant to say that I think Siuan wasn't totally sure the Forsaken were still sealed away when she said the comment to Verin.

 

*laughs* No need to apologize. Perhaps I just misunderstood. I do that sometimes.

 

As for a better answer, I cannot provide you. I honestly don't know anymore.

[triadruid]

The Oaths are explicitly NOT situational. They're only as strong as the precise wording (you can lie if you don't know it's a lie, or attack something you believe to be Shadowspawn probably), but Siuan should not have been able to make that statement about Nynaeve.

 

No offence mate, but not only have we seen it in the books, we also have RJ's direct word on the matter. The Oaths are subjective to the bound individuals perceptions of the situation around her--i.e. subjective and situational

*shrug* We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I'm not disputing that you can speak a word you believe to be true but is objectively false. I just don't remember any other examples of Aes Sedai speaking blatant untruths, even as opinion, so this statement by Siuan looks like a mistake.

[Jonn]

I thought it was based on whether or not the Aes Sedai believed it was true.

 

It doesn't actually have to be the truth, what she says. She could be wrong.

 

I always assumed that if it was something she honestly wasn't sure about, she could go either way whether or not it's true, a questionable matter...she could probably say something that she wasn't sure was true.

 

It's only things that she knows is true, she cannot physically lie about.

 

As far as what she said to Nynaeve, what she said could be true or maybe not. If she hasn't made her mind up about it yet or simply doesn't know enough about that person to make an exact judgment about their character, she would say pretty much anything.

 

For example:

 

"Rand Al'Thor is a fool!"

 

Rand could have done something that was foolish in her mind, but does that actually mean he is a fool? Does she have to stick to her proclamation? If someone asked her to say Rand Al Thor is not a fool a second later, would she be able to say it?

 

Probably.

[a pale tanned lover]

women lie or twist the truth, its a reflection of men now? though ive always believed women the best at this. they can lie for..................hahahaha

[42Bonzo88]

    We have heard through the entire series about Aes Sedai being able to only speak words that are true. Yet we also have heard that an Aes Sedai can make 'the truth stand on its head'. If one statement is true than the other statement shouldn't be, because in the technical sense, if the first is true than they wouldn't be able to do the second. I'm looking at this subject like the movie 'Liar, Liar' starring Jim Carey. His son made a wish that his dad could not lie for a certain amount of time and it came true. In that movie Jim Carey couldn't even be sarcastic. Everything he said had to be true. So, in that movie only the first of the two statements above would be true. He couldn't make the truth stand on its head.

    Now, looking at Aes Sedai again. Hypothetically, Say Moiraine sent a message to Siuan saying that she had the three boys and she was on her way to Tar Valon. Now Siuan, was asked by say Verin, where Moiraine was Siuan could say 'honestly' that Moiraine was on her way to Tar Valon because that is what Moiraine said. Now in the book we know that Moiraine ended up in the blight and Shinear. If Siuan said to Verin that she was on her way to Tar Valon she is not lying because according to her information she spoke the truth.

Hope that helps.

[Luckers]

*shrug* We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I'm not disputing that you can speak a word you believe to be true but is objectively false. I just don't remember any other examples of Aes Sedai speaking blatant untruths, even as opinion, so this statement by Siuan looks like a mistake.

 

I can think of several others. Siuan threatens to gut people right, left and centre. Try "Hold, burn you, or I’ll gut you all like sturgeons!" Would Suain have been force to gut Alanna and the other five had they not held, no. The vocalised words factually say that, the situation and tone adapt the meaning to 'do your best please.' thus she can say it.

 

Or how about from someone other than Siuan? ""Now, run! Whoever is not in her room by the time I count five will regret it to her dying day. One. Two...."

 

Now that is obviously factually not true. It is not within Alanna's power to do anything drastic to those girls, nothing they'd regret to the day they'd die. Tone, situation="go to your rooms now or there will be unpleasent consequences".

 

There are more, I'm sure... RJ loves the hyperbole. But given three seperate examples and an explanation by RJ that is perfectly logical it sort of sets it in stone. This is not a mistake, its a fact, as stated by both text and author.

 

 

 

 

[GrandpaG]

This entire thread is my fault...sorry.  :-[

 

Last year at this time, no one would have DARED to accuse Siuan of telling a lie...she was above suspicion...period...end of story.

 

Then, I plant one TINY LITTLE SEED of doubt by simply suggesting that MAYBE...just MAYBE...it was possible for her to be a darkfriend...now look what it's become!!!  I must admit, it was a cute little story, with her wiping the blood off from her knife after she had to make it look like the sister who had discovered her little secret had been robbed.  I really didn't think anyone at DM would ever even consider the possibility that she could be BA.  Oh, well.  I guess we have to harvest the crops that we sow.  :-[