Mesaana's Identity

[mb]

This thread is to discuss Mesaana's identity in the White Tower.

 

My guess would be that she would be someone of the Black Ajah at least after Alviarin's disappearance, maybe also before; for how else could she have controlled it if she was not of it.

I would also guess that she would not disguise herself as someone known to be away from the white tower or as someone known to be dead; for people on the side of the Light would immediately discover her if she did.

By the way she dresses (and also by her strength in the One Power), a maid or cook could probably be excluded.

Another guess would be that she is a Sitter (if she has influence over other Aes Sedia).  Her other Ajah might be Brown (because of her teaching background).

 

[Tyrell]

I'd say that we do not have sufficient evidence to pinpoint her identity, but that I do not believe she is posing as an Aes Sedai. Unless we are going to learn of a new weave in the final book of an eleven book series which would allow you to only hide part of your ability with the power then it is impossible for her to be posing as one. An Aes Sedai who is super strong or apparently has no strength at all would be picked out immediately.

[Majsju]

Danelle. Check the old threads to find out why.

[Tyrell]

Surely any theory that says that Messy is Danelle relies onsome as yet unknown weave for partially masking your strength?

[Mr Ares]

Surely any theory that says that Messy is Danelle relies onsome as yet unknown weave for partially masking your strength?

We have Lanfear wandering around the Tower as Else Grinwell, with no mention of Else now being super strong (TDR 25), and I think RJ may have said it was possible.

[Sabio]

Danelle. Check the old threads to find out why.

 

 

If it isn't Danelle then I'll be shocked.

[Luckers]

RJ stated that it was possible to mask ones strength without hiding the ability entirely, though the method was not widely known even in the Age of Legends.

 

It's Danelle, and yes, Maj is right, the old threads have much more detail.

[stapes2007]

There's also a pretty good discussion of it here:

 

http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.2_mesaana.html

 

[Tyrell]

RJ stated that it was possible to mask ones strength without hiding the ability entirely, though the method was not widely known even in the Age of Legends.

 

I hadn't heard that.

[metallicafan08]

Guys you're all wrong, rad the prologue to KOD the bit where Pevara goes to visit Tsutama Rath. I think she is my best guess at who Mesaana is hiding as. There are lots of hints in this scene just go back and read it. It is said that she (Tsutama) had been sent into exile and she came back a changed woman (because she is now Mesaana)

 

"Back then she had been hammer-hard, yet many had thought her a broken reed when she returned to the Tower. For a while, they had. Then everyone who spent time near her realized that those shifting eyes were far from nervous. Exile had changed her, only not towards softness. Those eyes belonged on a hunting cat, searching for enemies or prey."

 

There are then the references made to things Tsutama has in her room, 3 clocks and other such things which are hard to come by (unless of course you are one of the forsaken and you can travel freely in and out of the White Tower) especially this part.

 

"The tea tasted of blueberries. How had Tsutama obtained blueberries this early in the spring?"

 

Why include that sentence unless there was some significance? I think it quite possible that one of the forsaken wouldn't think twice about travelling off to somewhere to obtain bluberries where they would be growing that early in the spring. Okay so there isn't a great deal of hard evidence here but alot of RJ's writing is dropping little hints here and there for you to pick up on. I think Tsutama is without a doubt somebody in disguise, surely it's gotta be Mesaana.

[Luckers]

Go look up the old threads my friend. It's better to bring up one of those.

 

But no, Tsutama was not around when Mesaana first set up her alias in the tower.

[metallicafan08]

Maybe you're right but from all the hints in this scene it seems to me that Tsutama is somebody in disguise, all the hints point to her not being who shes supposed to be. Unless this is of course a red herring, I hope not. So when did Tsutama return from exile? I don't remember reading that part?

[MsDanya]

I dont believe Mesaana is Danelle, cause then Alviarin wouldhave actually recongized her,not thinking she was "tantalizingly familiar" or whatever. Shewould have known instantly. But I think i'm one of the few who think that!

[Majsju]

How many recognised Siuan and leane when they arrived in Salidar? The removal of the ageless look changes a lot.

[MsDanya]

True, but why would Mesaana remove the ageless look? To look younger? I doubt that.

[Majsju]

Mesaana does not have the ageless look herself, that is part of the disguise when she poses as Danelle. And it was not Mesaana who showed her face to Alviarin, that was SHs doing when he shielded Mesaana so her Mask of Mirrors was removed.

[Luckers]

Maybe you're right but from all the hints in this scene it seems to me that Tsutama is somebody in disguise, all the hints point to her not being who shes supposed to be. Unless this is of course a red herring, I hope not. So when did Tsutama return from exile? I don't remember reading that part?

 

Apparently all three old sitters were changed by their time away. Toveine became more focussed, Tsutama became harder and Lirene snapped.

 

But Tsutama's change was not unprecedented--its commented several times that she was always hard as a knife, just that her time in exile brought that closer to the surface.

[Vayez]

I haven't studied this subject a lot, but just came across some coinciding facts that I thought were worth mentioning to others who spend more time on this subject. Just my thoughts..

 

Mesaana was turned down as a researcher in the AoL, went on to be a teacher, still aspiring to be a top researcher on the dark side. Nesune is also an amibitious researcher and excellent teacher. She also mentions that the study she intends to make of the Dragon Reborn will be her biggest deed ever.

 

Also, Nesune taps her lips thoughtfully as well as Mesaana (as well as others though). Clothes don't seem to match however, I read Nesune's clothes were described as brown wool.

 

When an Aes Sedai delegation meets Rand:

"Leaning back in that thronelike chair, Rand looked at the chests with a near smile. The Aes Sedai studied him, faces masks of composure, yet Egwene thought she detected a hint of complacency in Coiren's eyes, a faint increase of contempt on Galina's full lips. Nesune.... Nesune was the real danger."

 

# Mesaana and Semirhage do not attend the meeting of the Forsaken. (WH,Ch13)

 

# Mesaana is summoned to the battle at Shadar Logoth but does not come. (WH,Ch35, CoT,Ch21)

 

If I'm not mistaken, this happens during the time Nesune was captured by Rand and the Ashaman. Mesaana also visits Alviarin around the time Nesune is captured. I don't know exactly how long she was held captive by the Ashaman, and if she had any means to be back in the tower before the next Mesaana appearance. This could be a big leak in this theory.

 

Nesune does appear on the good side, and even links up with other 'good guys' during the cleansing of Saidin. However, Elza (Black Ajah and part of the same group as Nesune) is also there posing to be on the good side, and she even kills Dashiva.

 

I found this an interesting one since I didn't read about it before.

[Luckers]

Mesaana was active during the time when Nesure was held under lock and key by the Wise Ones.

[Asgard Thorin]

True, but why would Mesaana remove the ageless look? To look younger? I doubt that.

 

I think the ageless look is as much or more from the Oaths as from the Power. Of all the examples of female channelers, only the post-Breaking Aes Sedai seem to have the agelessness.

[Hybrid]

True, but why would Mesaana remove the ageless look? To look younger? I doubt that.

 

I think the ageless look is as much or more from the Oaths as from the Power. Of all the examples of female channelers, only the post-Breaking Aes Sedai seem to have the agelessness.

 

It's pretty much been proved by events in the books.  In addition, when you are stilled and therefore released from the Oaths, you lose the ageless look.

[Graendals favourite]

Are you guys certain Mesaana isn't Shevan, one of the new too-young Brown Sitters in the Tower. Now I haven't researched through the older discussions now yet, but reading through the Alviarin chapter in CoT, I got the distinct feeling Shevan would fit very well, and also kind of make sense for Mesaana. Appearance-wise, Danelle has her eyes, but she was also described as small, whereas both Mesaana and Shevan have been described as tall. Mesaana's hair haven't been described, but Shevan's is curly.

 

Anyway, a few points. Unlike Danelle, Shevan was present in both meetings between Alviarin and Elaida after which Mesaana came to see her and knew much of what had happened. (though one might speculate she could have some kind of listening device from the ter'angreal cache too, another possibility is that those were meetings she knew to eavesdrop, and she would like to have Alviarin thinking she knew everything so that Alviarin would not dare lie to her.)

 

The thing that really puzzles me is how Mesaana came on Alviarin unnoticed. I think she came in through the door, being prepared for her show. The first time she knew to follow Alviarin, and the next time, though she took her time coming, she knew why Alviarin had called for her to come, even though Alviarin had only just returned to the Tower after being a month absent.

 

Also, I think orders given to Alviarin somehow make more sense from Mesaana's point of view if Mesaana is a Sitter rather than a figure who has slid away from power again. Danelle might be an ordinary Black sister. And especially there's Mesaana's comments on how Elaida thinks, well Mesaana must have been in touch with Elaida enough to know her character.

 

Well, what do you think, or am I missing something big or small here?

[Nightstrike]

Appearance-wise, Danelle has her eyes, but she was also described as small, whereas both Mesaana and Shevan have been described as tall. Mesaana's hair haven't been described, but Shevan's is curly.

Where is Mesaana described as tall? From the guide:..."A woman of average height and appearence.". I think the height might be one of the hardest things to hide using mask of mirrors. Besides that, Shevan would definately be a suspect.

 

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

In aCoS Prologue, when Mesaana first appears, there is:

Through the windows she could see the brightness of early afternoon, yet before she was halfway across her sitting room, the light suddenly faded into dim evening. The darkness did not surprise her. She turned and went to her knees immediately. "Great Mistress, I live to Serve." A tall woman of dark shadow and silver light stood before her. Mesaana.

[demonspawn]

Surely any theory that says that Messy is Danelle relies onsome as yet unknown weave for partially masking your strength?

 

The fact that Moghedien did just that when posing as... as... er... whats'er name Maighdin or summat, before being caught by Nynaeve, and afterwards while disguised as her posing as a maid did she not mask the power completely?