Aes Sedai and murder

[Sabio]

Ok on two occasions that I can remember a non BA Aes Sedai considered killing another sister.  Moraine when Verin confronted them about Rand in the second book and veerin when she was considering killing Cas.  Now none of the three oaths say you can't murder a sister (well unless you were going to try it with the one power).  After all their grumbling about how those 13 BA stole from the tower and killed warders and sisters seems to me the good Aes Sedai seem just as ready to kill another to protect a secret.  But how can one claim I will kill her to guard my secret yet think its ok becuase the aren't BA?

[Majsju]

That the BA killed Aes Sedai and Warders because they served the DO would make quite a difference...

 

And the two incidents you mention are quite unique, both are in order to protect the Dragon reborn

[Ashaman Kovan]

Well...The Dragon Reborn is more or less the hope of the world. So I think the circumstances are ALOT different than petty BA chicks trying to increase their own power and status. Hope of the world....

[Sabio]

I can sort of understand Verin since she had no idea what Cas's intentions were, but Moraine just to me seemed to decide that might need to happen awful quick and don't think she thought Verin was BA.  So your deception is uncovered and you just go to hope don't have to kill another Aes Sedai???

[Luckers]

Moiraine's thoughts are pretty ambigous. The second that Verin revealed she knew the Dragon was one of the three ta'veren the possibility that Moiraine and Siuan might have to kill her obviously would have leapt up--the two women had been dealing with the idea that they had to protect the Dragon from fellow sisters for nearly twenty years. They must have concidered the possibility.

 

But Moiraine's thoughts never conclude absolutely that Verin must die, nor does she prepare herself to do it--not really. Her reaction was instinctive, not concidered--thats made clear by the fact that she draws on the Power even though that would be of no use.

[Guest Dreadlord]

One Aes Sedai could easily kill another without violating the Oaths, even if neither were Black and both knew about it.

 

Example. If Elaida said that the sisters sent to the Black Tower should gentle any man they could, and, say, Cadsuane heard her say it, Cadsuane would definitely know the consequences that would make the White Tower have to pay; the White Tower would lose to a battle against the Black Tower. So, "for the good of the Tower," Cadsuane could easily get a knife out and plant it in Elaidas back without even thinking about the Oaths.

 

The Oaths are to never speak a world that is a lie, to never use the Power to make a weapon for one man to kill another, and to never use the Power in battle except against Shadowspawn, or in the defense of any Aes Sedai or Warder. Each Oath leaves tons of leeway. For example, Aes Sedai cant make a catapult that throws fireballs, but they could make an existing catapults missiles explode. They cant lie outright, but they can write lies, they can twist the truth, they can hint at things that arent true. They cant use the Power against men, yet they can place themselves so they may get hurt, forcing themselves to defend their lives, and then use the Power to do it.

 

The Oaths, in effect, mean nothing, and the only real effect they have is allowing Aes Sedai to mislead people even more.

[Sabio]

My question was more of doesn't it seem werid the Aes Sedai seem to be more then capable of killing each other and not really view it as bad  and are justified to protect their plans.  Moraine said she must do what she must but how else would you keep Verin quiet had she said the wrong things?

[CUBAREY]

My question was more of doesn't it seem werid the Aes Sedai seem to be more then capable of killing each other and not really view it as bad  and are justified to protect their plans.

 

You confuse the issue. Moirraine would have seen killing Verin as the lesser of two evils. Either imediately kill Verin or risk having Rand exposed as a channeler which would lead to his gentling and thus to the DO's victory.

 

A.S. are not relious figures sword to never doing violence, at best they can be said to exist to see that the DO is defeated at TG (The Blue, Green, etc.) and that humanity survives ans prospers (the Brown, Red, Grey, etc.).

 

A.S. take no oaths to do no violence, only not to use the power as a weapon. They are a practical body of women doing their best not pathofists seeking ultimate enlightenment.

[Ashaman Kovan]

They cant lie outright, but they can write lies,

 

Actually I thought somewhere we found out that an AS who isn't black CAN'T write a lie. I'll have to go through the books to find it, but i'm pretty positive they can't if they're still bound.

[cheyjade]

[Actually I thought somewhere we found out that an AS who isn't black CAN'T write a lie. I'll have to go through the books to find it, but i'm pretty positive they can't if they're still bound.

 

If the Oath is to SPEAK no word that isn't true, the assumption that Aes Sedai can't WRITE lies holds no water. Yet, in the books, the Sisters in the tower (the ones hunting black ajah) search records looking for statements other sisters made, on paper, that could be proven false.

[Darth_Andrea]

[Actually I thought somewhere we found out that an AS who isn't black CAN'T write a lie. I'll have to go through the books to find it, but i'm pretty positive they can't if they're still bound.

 

If the Oath is to SPEAK no word that isn't true, the assumption that Aes Sedai can't WRITE lies holds no water. Yet, in the books, the Sisters in the tower (the ones hunting black ajah) search records looking for statements other sisters made, on paper, that could be proven false.

 

 

It was in book 5 when Rand got those 2 letters

 

"I assume an Aes Sedai can't write a lie more easily than she can speak one?" He did not wait for her nod.

 

While this implys they can't it could be wrong remember if what a Aes Sedai believes is true she speaks then to her it's true and until it's tested we can't trust it.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]   

[Luckers]

As cheyjade pointed out, Pevara and Seaine both clearly think Aes Sedai can't write lies during their search for black sisters.

 

I would also point out that whilst Rand did not wait for Moiraine's nod, she would have pulled up short had she been intending not to nod. She specifically warns him about Alviarin, if she'd been wanting to do that all she needed to do was caste doubt on her note.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

"I assume an Aes Sedai can't write a lie more easily than she can speak one?" He did not wait for her nod

UNQUOTE

 

The Aes Sedai nodded, but did not say outright. That means she could very well have been misleading, without ever "speaking a word that is not a lie." Aes Sedai would love people to think they cant write a lie, but a nod of the head is no way near enough for me to believe

[RAND AL THOR]

That part is very confusing and misleading.

 

He did not wait for her nod. Does that mean she actually even nodded? He may not have noticed that she did not nod since he was so impatiently hurrying on with whatever he was saying.

 

 

Though it seems most likely that she did nod.

[Luckers]

Once again though, Pevara and Seaine's thoughts on the matter are not ambiguos. They clearly expect that an Aes Sedai can't write a lie.

[Sabio]

As cheyjade pointed out, Pevara and Seaine both clearly think Aes Sedai can't write lies during their search for black sisters.

 

I would also point out that whilst Rand did not wait for Moiraine's nod, she would have pulled up short had she been intending not to nod. She specifically warns him about Alviarin, if she'd been wanting to do that all she needed to do was caste doubt on her note.

 

I agree with this, all she had to say was Aes Sedai could write a lie.  Seems like it wouldn't be a good idea to mislead him on this.

[Hybrid]

I think Dreadlord's point is that, even if Moiraine is nodding, what question is she agreeing with?  She is nodding.  She doesn't have to be nodding to Rand's question.  She could even just be nodding along to some internal monologue she's having.

 

However, I agree that Aes Sedai likely can't write lies any more than they can speak them.  After all, isn't writing a soundless form of speech?

[Luckers]

Well, for a third time, Aes Sedai cannot write a lie--this is a fact. Whether Moiraine nodded or not is left up in the air, but Pevara and Seaine's thoughts on the matter are clear. Aes Sedai cannot write lies.

[Asmo]

Aes Sedai may not be able to write lies due to Pevara's thoughts, but if they were, it would be in Moiraine's interest to mislead Rand into believing they weren't, since she was just about to write him a letter herself which she would very much want him to believe. She would not want him regarding it with suspicion, as he would if he knew every word could be a lie. Not that the letter contained a great deal of useful information anyway, but still...

 

Anyway, a nod proves nothing. Moiraine nodded to Nynaeve when she asked her not to reveal the fact that she can channel, but she later did directly tell Siuan about her. Aes Sedai can lie through nodding.

[cheyjade]

"I vow to speak no word that isn't true."

 

How does that restrain a woman from writing a lie? Putting pen to paper, and inscribing words onto that paper, is not "Speaking" in any sense of the word that I've ever heard. That's called Writing.  If Aes Sedai were to vow to "...write no word that isn't true" that would be another thing. It does not make sense that a vow against speaking would keep one from writing.

 

How does one know that something is impossible unless one tries it? Did Pevara and Seaine attempted to write lies in order to discover if their method of search is valid, or are they going on what they've been told by other sisters?  Other sisters have been wrong before..

 

"It's impossible to heal stilling. It's also impossible to write a lie."

[Hybrid]

Writing is a form of speaking.  It comes down to the definition of speech.  Talking is just making random noises, to which we equate some sort of meaning.  Likewise, writing is just drawing random symbols, to which we also equate some sort of meaning.  As long as the intent to communicate is there, it is the same as speaking.  Now, if an Aes Sedai were good enough that she could delude herself into believing that she was just drawing random squigglies that coincidentally happened to be the same as a lie, maybe she could write a lie.  But as long as the intent to communicate remains, I believe writing is the same as speaking.

[Alexius]

That the BA killed Aes Sedai and Warders because they served the DO would make quite a difference...

 

And the two incidents you mention are quite unique, both are in order to protect the Dragon reborn

There was also Shein Chunla- a deposed Amyrlin who was murdered in her sleep after a failed attempt to restore her. Again, it was not done with the Power (she was smothered) and it was to preserve the unity of the Tower.

 

As far as Oaths go, I remember reading in one of the books (I've forgotten which) that the Oaths do not prevent a sister holding someone with the Power so someone else (or the Sister herself) can kill them. So they can easily be avoided in various ways.

About writing lies, I'm sure someone would have tried it- look at how Moiraine and Siuan try to speak lies just after they swear the Oaths. There's precedent for Aes Sedai testing that oath- as it can be done in a way that testing it does not harm anyone, unlike some of the others- and I'm sure some inquisitive Brown would have tried. The official history of the Tower also contains a lot of half-truths and omissions which would not be needed if AS could write lies.

[cheyjade]

Writing is a form of speaking. 

 

I disagree.

 

It comes down to the definition of speech...As long as the intent to communicate is there, it is the same as speaking.

 

In the same vein, as long as the intent to communicate is there, saying  "You may call me Robert" would be a lie if your name was Jane. But Aes Sedai, after being asked their name, say "You can call me..." several times in the series. They were asked their name, and they then communicate...a lie.

 

I have another theory. Remember that if Aes Sedai believe a lie, they can say it for truth. So if an Aes Sedai believes that writing a lie or nodding when the answer is 'no' is breaking the oath, than it is, for her. But if another does not believe so, it's not. Maybe one Aes Sedai can write lies, but others can't.

 

The Aes Sedai go by the letter of the Oath in order to stretch the truth and manipulate people into believing that they said something that they really didn't. If they can delude themselves into believing that intentionally allowing someone to think they said one thing when they actually said another is ok, then they can delude themselves into beliving that writing lies or gesturing incorrectly is ok.

[RAND AL THOR]

Now, if an Aes Sedai were good enough that she could delude herself into believing that she was just drawing random squigglies that coincidentally happened to be the same as a lie, maybe she could write a lie.

 

While this would work, I honestly don't think any human being is capable of such extreme mental control.

[Hybrid]

Well, the Oaths are subjective, so Aes Sedai can write a lie if they believe the Oath doesn't apply to writing.  But we think of writing as a form of speech.  That's why our languages have symbols and sounds.  Languages are both auditory and visual.  So how is writing exempt but speaking is not?

 

In the same vein, as long as the intent to communicate is there, saying  "You may call me Robert" would be a lie if your name was Jane. But Aes Sedai, after being asked their name, say "You can call me..." several times in the series. They were asked their name, and they then communicate...a lie.

 

Your example is flawed.  After all, what meaning is there in a name?  My name is Chris.  That's what I call myself, and that's how I'm known to the world.  But, I could have my name changed if I wanted to.  And a friend of mine could start calling me some other random name, like Craig.  I could even have it "officially" changed if I wanted to.  Names are not things that have been handed down by God as the ultimate identity of the soul.  In the end, a name means nothing.

 

I have another theory. Remember that if Aes Sedai believe a lie, they can say it for truth. So if an Aes Sedai believes that writing a lie or nodding when the answer is 'no' is breaking the oath, than it is, for her. But if another does not believe so, it's not. Maybe one Aes Sedai can write lies, but others can't.

 

Right, the Oaths are subjective.

 

The Aes Sedai go by the letter of the Oath in order to stretch the truth and manipulate people into believing that they said something that they really didn't. If they can delude themselves into believing that intentionally allowing someone to think they said one thing when they actually said another is ok, then they can delude themselves into beliving that writing lies or gesturing incorrectly is ok.

 

Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?