I Just Don't Get It... (Reds going to the BT)

[Luckers]

But I still believe that there will be no gentling until TG is over.  The men who go insane will be dealt with, but the Reds know that the world's going to need every channeler it can get to deal with TG.  Plus, if they lashed out at a superior force, they'd get turned into mincemeat.

 

I agree completely. The Reds would never have approached the Black Tower if they had concluded that the bonding would then go to immediate gentling. It gets them nowhere--they gentle at best 30 men, and thats done with. No others agree to the bonding--aside from which, why arrange accomdation in secret within the city if they merely intended to gentle them. Their intention was much more likely in the simple reality that the bond allows an Aes Sedai to draw strength from the warder right up to, and including, his death. In this was their bond serves as a sort of killswitch.

 

The bond provides control why he's sane, and the second the warder goes bugnuts the Aes Sedai can kill him, no matter where he is or where he runs. And given she would have the bond with which to guage his mental state it provides a perfect monitoring system for that too. It's not pleasent, but its the only feasible way to deal with the Black Tower. At least from their point of view.

 

Of course the Aes Sedai don't know that men holding saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond, or that saidin is clean. Should prove an interesting way to enforce cohesion between the groups.

[Jagen Sedai]

Of course the Aes Sedai don't know that men holding saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond...

 

Where does it say this? o.0  How does anyone know this? With Alanna and Rand? I don't remember...

[Mr Ares]

Where does it say this? o.0  How does anyone know this? With Alanna and Rand? I don't remember...

Sammael POV. Sometime in LOC, IIRC.

 

EDIT: LoC 6. After thinking to himself about Graendal's skill in compulsion, he notes to himself that such tricks don't work on a man holding the Source.

[Luckers]

Indeed, Sammael states that a man wrapped in saidin cannot be compelled, and this is proven in Rand's interactions with Alanna. My guess is that its due to the mental state of a men involved ina the fight for control of saidin--they are not in a mood for being controlled.

 

We do also know that the reverse is not true. Women holding saidar can still be compelled.

[havoc110]

Does anyone here smell a set up?  Taim's statement leads me to believe that all is not what the Reds expect. 

 

I have a feeling that no men will be bonded, just more Reds bonded instead, and that it is:

 

1)  A Mesaana and/or BA setup.

 

and

 

2)  Elaida is going to be framed for it.

 

This will further cripple the WT, with the Civil War, Egwene in the dungeon, and the possibility to depose Elaida, with maybe Mesaana's alter ego (whoever that might be) leading the coup and becoming AS herself.

 

So I think the Reds have been duped, and part of the reason I thought that was because that I didn't think it made any sense either.

 

Something like: "You know those guys who bonded 51 of us against their will, we're going to go petition them to allow us to bond 51 of them in the name of fairness"

 

Riiiiiight......

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule, indeed.

[Paviel]

Egwene isn't in the dungeon, unless you can consider the novice quarters a dungeon.

[Hybrid]

Egwene isn't in the dungeon, unless you can consider the novice quarters a dungeon.

 

Egwene isn't in a literal dungeon, but she is imprisoned and force-fed forkroot tea to keep her channeling abilities to a minimum.  The only reason she's not in a dungeon is because Elaida wants to humiliate her.

[Luckers]

And because Elaida underestimates her. Everything you said is Elaida's perception of Egwene's present situation--yet despite that Egwene is proving remarkably effective.

 

For all the limitations--she's not in a dungeon. And that has left her free to act.

[Elgee]

So I think the Reds have been duped, and part of the reason I thought that was because that I didn't think it made any sense either.

 

Something like: "You know those guys who bonded 51 of us against their will, we're going to go petition them to allow us to bond 51 of them in the name of fairness"

 

Riiiiiight......

 

Let the Lord of Chaos rule, indeed.

 

Oh for crying in a bucket ...

 

The Reds DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE 51 BONDED AGAINST THEIR WILL.

 

They have no idea that the Dragon Reborn has ordered Taim to allow the "Sisters loyal to Egwene" to bond 51 in return.

 

Furthermore, I believe Taim told the Reds that they may NOT bond full Asha'man? And aren't most of his cronies full Asha'man? I do know that none of his faction force-bonded the 51. It seems that both sets of Sisters might bond men who are NOT darkfriends. Chances seem good, anyway.

[Luckers]

Oh for crying in a bucket ...

 

The Reds DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THE 51 BONDED AGAINST THEIR WILL.

 

Ah, yeah they do. Toveine sent a letter about it during CoT. We see Tsutama show Pevara, and later Pevara, Seaine and Yukiri discuss it in detail in the prologue of KoD.

 

They have no idea that the Dragon Reborn has ordered Taim to allow the "Sisters loyal to Egwene" to bond 51 in return.

 

True.

 

Furthermore, I believe Taim told the Reds that they may NOT bond full Asha'man? And aren't most of his cronies full Asha'man? I do know that none of his faction force-bonded the 51. It seems that both sets of Sisters might bond men who are NOT darkfriends. Chances seem good, anyway.

 

No, Rand instructed Narishma to tell the Salidar Aes Sedai they couldn't bond full Asha'men. Taim did nothing of the sort.

[Hybrid]

Taim's followers + Logain are the only full Asha'man, and Taim would have kept Logain from gaining the rank if he could.  However, Taim only said that they could only bond those who agreed to be bonded (I think).  Certainly, none of his cronies would agree.

[Luckers]

I imagine his cronies would agree if he told them too. Depends on if his intention is merely to create strife between Rand and the Aes Sedai, or if he had something more specific in mind.

 

Oh, and not that its relevant to this discussion, but most of Logain's men have since been raised Asha'men, as have those already with Rand.

 

 

[Hybrid]

Oh, and not that its relevant to this discussion, but most of Logain's men have since been raised Asha'men, as have those already with Rand.

 

I forgot actually.  I was only taking into account those Taim himself had raised.

[Samudor]

Are we sure that the warder bond can't be used on a man? I know about Sammael's little tidbit, but are we sure that the bond isn't something else? As for Rand, I was under the impression that he was immune to the bond effects simply because he is Ta'averen- I'll bet that Mat and Perrin would be immune as well. As we all well know, controlling a Ta'averen is about as easy as "wrestling with a bear." It seemed to me that Rand was immune period, with or without saidin. Is there any concrete evidence that the warder bond won't work on a mand holding saidin?

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Are we sure that the warder bond can't be used on a man? I know about Sammael's little tidbit, but are we sure that the bond isn't something else? As for Rand, I was under the impression that he was immune to the bond effects simply because he is Ta'averen- I'll bet that Mat and Perrin would be immune as well. As we all well know, controlling a Ta'averen is about as easy as "wrestling with a bear." It seemed to me that Rand was immune period, with or without saidin. Is there any concrete evidence that the warder bond won't work on a mand holding saidin?

Precisely.

 

Sure, we have Sammael talking about Compulsion being useless on an individual holding the power.

We also have another Forsaken, I forget who, when talking of the bond, saying something along the lines of ..."It's amazing that these savages have created something that we, at the height of our powers, never did."

Egwene repeatedly talks about her hatred of Complusion. Yet she dreams of bonding Gawyn. Hmmm.

 

Are certain elements the bond and Complusion the same thing?

 

Re. Rand and Alanna. He can't be holding Saidin the whole time. Yet she never seems to be able to get her act together. Ta'avaren?

 

Ta'avaren work by shaping threads of the pattern by pulling them all over the place. Shaping peoples actions and, possibly their destinies. Complusion forces people to act as you tell them, i.e. you are temporarily shaping their actions and possibly destiny.

 

Maybe Ta'averen and Complusion don't work together.

 

The short answer is that we don't know enough.

[Lady of the Shadows]

I think it's also a form of control.  They know they can't gentle all of them, and that they will have to ally together for TG, so what better way to do it than to make them their warders?

[Luckers]

Yes, the compulsive aspect of the bond is the same in nature to compulsion itself. And what Sammael said is 'such tricks don't work on a man wrapped in saidin'. The nature of the effect is the key.

 

As for Alanna, she doesn't realise that he is only immune whilst touching saidin. She never tried to compel him again.

 

And ta'verenism doesn't protect against compulsion. Liandrin used compulsion on Rand in the second book, and though he resisted (and was able to because hers was a pretty pathetic form of compulsion) it was still affecting him.

 

Ta'avaren work by shaping threads of the pattern by pulling them all over the place. Shaping peoples actions and, possibly their destinies. Complusion forces people to act as you tell them, i.e. you are temporarily shaping their actions and possibly destiny.

 

Well, ta'verenism actually just loosens the pattern in the direct vacinity around a person enabling the natural flow of events to achieve much greater and more random heights. The ta'verenism itself doesn't push or pull anything, just makes things more fluid. The pushing comes from the push of the wheel as it weaves.

 

I think it's also a form of control.  They know they can't gentle all of them, and that they will have to ally together for TG, so what better way to do it than to make them their warders?

 

 

I don't if the Reds were nessasarily looking at it from terms of alliance. But the main benefit the bond gives them is that it gives them a kill switch. Aes Sedai can draw strength from a warder right up to the point that it kills them. The second that the Reds sense through the bond that the Asha'men has lost it, they can kill him immediately and cleanly without even a fight. They are doubtlessly expecting to be able to control the men through the compulsive aspect, but the kill switch is the major benefit.

[havoc110]

I'm still totally surprised that there aren't more (read: ANY) people who think that the Reds have walked into a trap.  This is the 2nd thread where it's come up, and still no takers.

 

I don't think this is anywhere close to the looniest theory I've put forth, but, hey, what the heck...

 

But as for the Reds not knowing about the 51, it's right there in the text as Pevara and Co. walk in the BT door.

 

Remember the old saying:  Don't aggressively put down others' theories when your evidence is completely incorrect.

 

[Paviel]

Well, it's not completely relevant to the topic at hand: The topic at hand is the Red Ajah's motive for bonding Asha'man. So unless they INTENDED to walk into a trap...

 

That said, I agree with you that they probably did walk into a trap.

[havoc110]

It's on-topic if it pertains to why the Reds were sent.  If it's a trap, then it makes sense to look to Tsutama as the main suspect for sending Pevara and company into the trap.  I agree wholeheartedly, it doesn't make sense for them to go, the whole concept of the envoy to the BT is a sham.

 

So rather than explain it off with what could be valid reasoning for coming up with this bogus concept, I'm looking for the hows and whys of the execution of the trap, if in fact it turns out to be a trap. 

[Paviel]

On the assumption that Taim is a Darkfriend (and seeing as he gave the order to kill Rand back in TPOD, I have very little doubt that he is), I would guess that there must be some sort of alliance between the Darkfriends in the White Tower and those in the Black.

 

I know that Pevara was one of the Aes Sedai sent to make the deal with Taim, and that she was also one of the Aes Sedai tasked with sniffing out the Black Ajah. At best (for the Light), the deal with Taim removes one of the Black Ajah's worst enemies from Tar Valon for a few weeks or months, and at worst it removes her permanently.

 

On the other hand, Darkfriends never struck me as being particularly well organized, and this is a very elaborate trap.

[havoc110]

There are things that I need to review before going deeper into this thoery, but there are some crossovers here with the BA presence in the WT.

 

So:

 

1)  How many Reds were involved with the Bonding at the BT plan?  Was it a single sister, or a group?

 

2)  Is there reason to suspect that any of them could be BA or Mesaana?

 

3)  How much does the text of the story reveal about becoming BA?  Presumably the BA has an oath rod to remove the 3 oaths and replace them.  I think that is mentioned directly, but I am not sure at this time.

 

4)  If there is in fact that BA oath rod, then potentially any of the "BA hunters" could also have those oaths removed in the same manner.  I have always held in the back of my mind that one of the BA hunters could be a suspect, because it's such a fabulous cover, if it could be done.  And those suspects could cross over into this BT envoy setup.  Not Pevara herself, but perhaps one of the other sisters in the envoy, even.

 

[wvlr]

There are things that I need to review before going deeper into this thoery, but there are some crossovers here with the BA presence in the WT.

 

So:

 

1)  How many Reds were involved with the Bonding at the BT plan?  Was it a single sister, or a group?

 

2)  Is there reason to suspect that any of them could be BA or Mesaana?

 

3)  How much does the text of the story reveal about becoming BA?  Presumably the BA has an oath rod to remove the 3 oaths and replace them.  I think that is mentioned directly, but I am not sure at this time.

 

4)  If there is in fact that BA oath rod, then potentially any of the "BA hunters" could also have those oaths removed in the same manner.  I have always held in the back of my mind that one of the BA hunters could be a suspect, because it's such a fabulous cover, if it could be done.  And those suspects could cross over into this BT envoy setup.  Not Pevara herself, but perhaps one of the other sisters in the envoy, even.

 

 

1.  It is a group.

 

2.  One of them is suspicious - at lease to me.

 

3.  No the BA do not have their own OR.    They use the standard WT OR to do their business.    -    This is not actually stated but can be deduced by the fact that in Galina's POV she is unsure if the WT OR can release her from the Shaido OR oaths.    She is so unsure that she stays with Shiado to get the OR even though she could have escaped without it.

 

4.  No see #3.      Plus  -  we have seen the BA hunters take the oath not to lie & immediately state that they are not BA.    So this is not likely to be the case.

[Cherise]

I'm still totally surprised that there aren't more (read: ANY) people who think that the Reds have walked into a trap.  This is the 2nd thread where it's come up, and still no takers.

 

Oh, I DEFINITELY think the reds have walked into a trap at the Black Tower.

 

Taim is altogether too casual in the way he tells them to go ahead and bond any of his chosen followers that they want to.

 

I say chosen followers deliberately. I think Taim is at least a dark friend, if not a Chosen himself.  The link in my signature has all the story quotes which lead me to believe that Taim's followers will be new Dreadlords which Rand will have to fight in the Last Battle.

 

[Luckers]

I consider it highly unlikely that the shadow planned for the Reds action. If the Shadow does indeed allow its Asha'men to be bonded it opens them to the Aes Sedai being able to kill them instantly with a single thought no matter where they are.

 

Will Taim use this to his advantage? Absolutely. Is this a trap that was laid out for the Reds, almost certainly not. Or, if so, such a stupid trap that it will backfire.

 

1)  How many Reds were involved with the Bonding at the BT plan?  Was it a single sister, or a group?

 

Six. Pevara, Javindrha, Tarna, Jezrail, Desala and Melare. In addition to them only Tsutama knew of the plan.

 

2)  Is there reason to suspect that any of them could be BA or Mesaana?

 

Some suggest Javindhra because she displays strange signs of pleasure at signs that Elaida is in trouble despite that she is supposed to be Elaida's lapdog. Frankly i don't see much in that--Elaida is a distinctly unpleasent woman, and has a tendency to treat those that try to help he with highhanded disdain. Take Joline and Teslyn for instance--both now loathe Elaida, despite beginning as two of her six closest supporters, and the architects of her rise to power.

 

Wvlr covered the rest, i think.