I Just Don't Get It... (Reds going to the BT)

[Jagen Sedai]

 

I've read the couple sections having to do with the Reds' decision to start bonding Asha'man as Warders. And as much thinking as I have done on the subject I still don't get why they decided to do it. What was the reason?

[Ndshacker]

I beleive it was to form a truce and also so they could make their circles larger to face the forsaken's

weapon"  which was actually rand cleansing saidin

[Vemynal]

for once aes sedai stupidity was a good thing^^

[Jagen Sedai]

When did anyone think it was a Chosen weapon? o.0

[Hybrid]

Well, it has to do with the traditional role of the Red Ajah.  The Greens are the Battle Ajah, the Grays are negotiators, the Whites deal with logic, the Blues deal with causes, the Yellows Heal, the Browns seek knowledge, and the Reds deal with male channelers.  When male channelers went insane from the Taint, the Red Ajah gentled them.  Now that there is no Taint, there is no cause to gentle male channelers.  However, Aes Sedai being Aes Sedai, they need a way to control the Asha'man so that they don't interfere with the Aes Sedai agenda.  The only real way remaining is to bond them.  Who is to do this?  The Ajah that deals with male channelers, the Reds.  That reasoning is actually logical.  What isn't logical is that they failed to take into account one of the major personality traits of most Reds: they don't like men, so they don't take Warders.  So, the Red Ajah as an organization is the best choice to bond Asha'man, but the Red Ajah as people is the worst choice.

[Hybrid]

When did anyone think it was a Chosen weapon? o.0

 

Practically everyone except Rand and the people with him, Perrin and Mat, and Elayne and Aviendha thought so, because of the sheer scale of Power involved.  They thought the Forsaken had finally decided to stop playing games and link together.  Rand and the people he was with (Cadsuane, etc.) knew otherwise, of course.  Perrin and Mat had the ta'veren telepathy.  Elayne and Aviendha had the link.  No one else had any information whatsoever, so what other conclusion could they have drawn?

 

I beleive it was to form a truce and also so they could make their circles larger to face the forsaken's

weapon"  which was actually rand cleansing saidin

 

That was the Salidar Aes Sedai's opinion.  I think the Reds were more concerned with dealing with the Asha'man than dealing with the "Forsaken weapon."  Haven't gotten there on my reread yet though.

[Ndshacker]

to tell you the truth I was goiing completely by memory and all the snobby aes sedai are the same to me.  ;D

[Avery]

The Salidar Aes Sedai wanted to form a truce in order to expand their circles to combat the Forsaken, since they believed the Forsaken were using a powerful weapon.

 

The White Tower Reds wanted to use bonding to capture and control many Asha'man, so they could eventually gentle them.

[Charlz Guybon]

Well, it has to do with the traditional role of the Red Ajah.  The Greens are the Battle Ajah, the Grays are negotiators, the Whites deal with logic, the Blues deal with causes, the Yellows Heal, the Browns seek knowledge, and the Reds deal with male channelers.  When male channelers went insane from the Taint, the Red Ajah gentled them.  Now that there is no Taint, there is no cause to gentle male channelers.  However, Aes Sedai being Aes Sedai, they need a way to control the Asha'man so that they don't interfere with the Aes Sedai agenda.  The only real way remaining is to bond them.  Who is to do this?

Aside from the Red sisters already controlled by Rand, the Red Ajah don't know that Saidin has been cleansed.

 

EDIT: Is there any way to make these pages longer than ten post?

[Talya]

I haven't been up this way for ages, But the topic caught my eye as I'm a Red on these boards.

 

The whole purpose of the Reds was to prevent another Breaking. They gentled the men because they could not kill them out right, and so they descovered how to gentle them.

 

They usually only heard of a few channelers and they were one offs. Now we have a whole Tower full of men that can channel. I think they realised they couldn't gentle them all. I believe that they wanted to bond them to exert some kind of control over them incase they did go made. Whether that be to gentle them or to help control them when the madness set it.

 

Sorry I'm repeating what you have said in parts, but you just beat me to the submit button. Annd I don't think there is anyway of changing that, but they are 12 posts per page.

 

I don't believe they knew that Saidin had been cleansed, as even some Asha'men weren't sure it was a permanent thing. That was the impression I got. I think Elaida also realised that in order to have any kind of success at the end, they would need to have ties with the Black Tower, strong ties that could help towards the Light winning.

 

 

[Elwinn Taron]

Elaida doesn't know about the Red's plan to bond Asha'men.  Tsutama  specifically told Pevara and Javindhra that it was Red business and Elaida was not to be told.  And they want to do it to control the men.  They said they didn't want to bond anyone who was showing any signs of going insane.

[Asnos]

plus, with no more taint there would be no more need for reds, so they got a new reason to be.

[Talya]

Thanks Elwinn I need to rereqad sometime, I think I must have been getting confused. Didn't she send the first ones to the BT and they ended getting bonded by some of the Asha'men. I'm afraid I'm a little rusty.

 

Asnos, but at the time they went to the BT they didn't know that there was no more taint. They knew that they couldn't just walk in the BT and gentle them all, so had to come up with something else to try and control/keep an eye on them, so to speak.

[Sabio]

The Salidar Aes Sedai wanted to form a truce in order to expand their circles to combat the Forsaken, since they believed the Forsaken were using a powerful weapon.

 

The White Tower Reds wanted to use bonding to capture and control many Asha'man, so they could eventually gentle them.

 

Not sure that was their plan, who knows what the effect would be on an Aes Sedai if her warder was gentled.  But yeah, the whole plan never made sense because they don't know about the cleansing and seems werid since so many refrences how the Red dislike men etc... that now they would suddenly decide to get warders and not only warders but men who can channel?????  Whatever the reason if they bond any Taim ones the Reds are in for a surprise.

 

plus, with no more taint there would be no more need for reds, so they got a new reason to be.

 

Even with warders what is the purpose of the Reds now?  They still can't go around gentling men anymore.

[Jagen Sedai]

So they didn't know about the taint being removed when they went, or did they know of the rumors that it was healed?

 

And may the Reds are bonding them anyway just to keep the channeling men "in line" so to speak? To make sure they don't do anything they're not supposed to?

 

And I think it's safe to say the whole "most Reds dislike men" is actually kinda untrue. I mean over half of AS in the Tower are Reds, that's a lot of women who would really dislike men. I just don't buy it.

[Asnos]

plus, with no more taint there would be no more need for reds, so they got a new reason to be.

 

Even with warders what is the purpose of the Reds now?  They still can't go around gentling men anymore.

 

Because they "can't go around gentling men anymore" they now are trying to make peace between the WT and BT.

 

Asnos, but at the time they went to the BT they didn't know that there was no more taint. They knew that they couldn't just walk in the BT and gentle them all, so had to come up with something else to try and control/keep an eye on them, so to speak.

 

Which is their new purpose...

[Hybrid]

Well, it has to do with the traditional role of the Red Ajah.  The Greens are the Battle Ajah, the Grays are negotiators, the Whites deal with logic, the Blues deal with causes, the Yellows Heal, the Browns seek knowledge, and the Reds deal with male channelers.  When male channelers went insane from the Taint, the Red Ajah gentled them.  Now that there is no Taint, there is no cause to gentle male channelers.  However, Aes Sedai being Aes Sedai, they need a way to control the Asha'man so that they don't interfere with the Aes Sedai agenda.  The only real way remaining is to bond them.  Who is to do this?

Aside from the Red sisters already controlled by Rand, the Red Ajah don't know that Saidin has been cleansed.

 

EDIT: Is there any way to make these pages longer than ten post?

 

It is my opinion that the Pevara and co. do know that the Taint is cleansed.  In COT, Toveine sends a note to Tarna and Pevara.  (Toveine is the Red who was bonded by Logain.)  Tarna and Pevara react:

"This changes nothing," [Tarna] said flatly. Coldly. "It only makes what I suggest more urgent."

"On the contrary," Pevara sighed. "That changes everything. It changes the whole world."

Funny, because the book jacket of COT has almost the exact same wording when describing the after effects of the Cleansing:

Rand Al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn himself, has cleansed the Dark One's taint from the male half of the True Source, and everything has changed. Yet nothing has, for only men who can channel believe that Saidin is clean again, and a man who can channel is still hated and feared --- even one prophesied to save the world.

And, besides, even if the wording is only coincidence, what else would tie into the bonding Asha'man idea of Tarna's and be so urgent?  The Reds will not be gentling the men.  There is no longer any need for that.  But they do want to control the Black Tower, just like they want to control the Wise Ones, and the Windfinders.  No independent groups of channelers in power can be allowed by the Tower.  But, the Reds may be in for a surprise, since men holding saidin can't be compulsed...

[Jagen Sedai]

Going off of what Hybrid said, this makes me wonder in which direction the Reds are going. Once they find out Bonding them is practically useless, then what? I almost hope the final book opens from Pevara's or another Red's view because I'm so eager to find out what is going to happen with them. And the whole Tower for that matter.

[Kaznen]

When Logain and Narshima told people that the taint was gone the people told acted like they never heard it before.

 

Myself, I don't get why the Asha'man were not shouting the news in the streets of every city.  It seems people keep secrets for the sake of keeping secrets.

 

The reds not knowing about the clean saidin (given the time frame it is unlikely Tovenine(?) couldn't have written the taint was clean.  She sent the not in Carahien and the cleansing hadn't happened yet.  And if the reds had heard a whisper, that would have spread through their quarters like wildfire.

 

So the Highest decided that because over 800 men at the BT were channeling (as far as she knew) shadow tainted saidin and the AS in mass would be destroyed fighting them, and TG was coming and most of the men would still be sane when it came she thought to round them up, put a way to keep track of them on, that way when the time came to gentle them they could be found, told to stop, and taking care of (they don't know about the wine BTW).

[Paviel]

I can't see why they would even consider bonding Asha'man unless they knew that Toveine's attack on the Black Tower had failed, or at least was going to fail. Furthermore, bonding Asha'man as Warders would probably be considered just desserts for what Logain did to Toveine, notwithstanding that Rand thought the same thing...

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Going off of what Hybrid said, this makes me wonder in which direction the Reds are going. Once they find out Bonding them is practically useless, then what?

Why is bonding them "practically useless?" I see it as incredibly useful:

 

It gives the WT a link to the BT, provided they can gain consent of course. It also drastically increases the amount of the Power a group of Aes Sedai can handle (1 Ashaman in a group of 13+). So, it would improve the WT's chances ahead of Tarmon Gaidon in both political and "military" terms.

 

If you mean that they can't control them, that's not the case.

 

I'd expect to see the Reds of the future bonding male channelers and working in tandem with them, as a feature of their Ajah.

[Luckers]

It is my opinion that the Pevara and co. do know that the Taint is cleansed.  In COT, Toveine sends a note to Tarna and Pevara.  (Toveine is the Red who was bonded by Logain.)  Tarna and Pevara react:

 

The problem with that is that Akoure sent a similar note to the Gray, and Ayako to the White--and presumably others sent their own, likely at Desandred and Lemai's orders. During the coversation between Pevara, Seaine and Yukiri they only speak of the disasterous end of the mission. Nothing in Pevara's thoughts even suggest that there was more to the Red note than that--indeed, her thoughts are that she should have expected the other Ajahs would have recieved their own notes on the matter suggesting that that was indeed the sum of the information in her own note.

 

I'd say the Tower sisters as yet remain unaware.

[Hybrid]

I got so excited, I didn't check the time frame.   :P  I also forgot that Toveine's mission was a secret kept by Elaida and Alviarin.  So yeah, it's probably just a note about the mission.  But I still believe that there will be no gentling until TG is over.  The men who go insane will be dealt with, but the Reds know that the world's going to need every channeler it can get to deal with TG.  Plus, if they lashed out at a superior force, they'd get turned into mincemeat.

[Jagen Sedai]

I think it'd be nice soemtimes to just get rid of the Ajahs all together, but I guess even that would be out of Egwene's power (presuming she stays Amyrlin).

[Sabio]

I think it'd be nice soemtimes to just get rid of the Ajahs all together, but I guess even that would be out of Egwene's power (presuming she stays Amyrlin).

 

Why?? Once last battle is over what need is there for the Red or even the Green Ajah?  I think the Ajah's will defiently have to make some changes, she might not be able to get rid of all of them but at least two of the Ajah's will of lost their purpose of being around.  Maybe all the Ajah's being at each others throat is the prelude to the Amyrlin Egwene saying "we are Aes Sedai, not an Ajah", maybe removing the Ajah's will remind the Aes Sedai of exactly who they are and what they need to be focusing on.