Faile death threats

[Gholam]

I like Faile.  She is strong-willed and takes things in her own hands.  Although, I didn't like it when she let Perrin smash in the head of the person who was getting her out of the city. she could've have told him to calm down or at least explain to him who he had killed.

[DemandredFO]

Yes but then it might have come out through various means that Faile was considering sleeping with Roldan, I think that was his name, for help and then not telling Perrin.  Besides at that point perrin was insane he may well have killed her by accident if she tried to interfere.

Roxinos, yes that may be better but we cannot always have what we want.  I didn't hear any Europeans complaining when illusion helped free them in WWII.  I am assuming you are not from the united states.

[benr]

Faile bothers me, more than most of the characters, but that is by RJs design.  I'd hate to read a whole book about Saldea!  I thought she did a very good job while in captivity of holding everyone together and carefully organizing everyone to take advantage of whatever opportunity might present itself.  Her reasoning that Perrin would be in great danger if he attempted a rescue was sound, although it underestimated the t'averan effect.  It didn't seem to me that she had time to try and save Rolan.  She was using him, but at least had the grace to feel some guilt about it.  His attentions towards her were not exactly altruistic.  She, too, has room to grow and change - she is still extremely young.

[Raistlin]

i do not like Faile. I think she has all but killed Perrin for me. i hope she turns out to be a DF.

[Guest Dreadlord]

She has annoyed me from day one pretty much. Of all the taverens wife-to-bes she is by far the most annoying. Elayne annoys me a bit, but Faile... Its easy to say Perrin doesnt understand how Saldaean women think and all that, but its just as easy to say the same thing but the other way round. Perrin and Faile dont even know that much about each other, something which Perrin realises, yet Faile doesnt even take into account that they havent got to know each other that much and STILL gives him a hard time when he gets things wrong.

 

As mentioned by others, I also think she has destroyed Perrins character. He started out well with the Wolfbrother thing, but it just seems to go downhill after Faile starts pretending to be a grown woman rather than some annoying little crap.

 

I hope her death gets the buildup it deserves

[Roxinos]

Roxinos, yes that may be better but we cannot always have what we want.  I didn't hear any Europeans complaining when illusion helped free them in WWII.  I am assuming you are not from the united states.

 

Nope, I'm American. Born in Miami, FL and I've lived here all of my life.

 

I don't mean to turn this into any type of historical debate, but I'm honestly curious as to what you mean by "illusion" helping to free them in WWII. You think I was equating the US with an illusion? I was equating the US's fascination with security and being safe from the "terrorist threat" with an illusion of security.

 

Anyway.

 

I'd hate to read a whole book about Saldea!

 

I wouldn't. I think that'd be quite an interesting book. In fact, I think a lot of the reasons why Faile seems so strong is because we view her through Perrin's eyes most of the time. The only standard for comparison we have there is women Perrin knows, and that's not a fair comparison. I think if we saw a story entirely in a Saldean's perspective surrounded by like-minded people, things would seem a bit more balanced.

[Mr Ares]

i hope she turns out to be a DF.

You'll be disappointed on that score.

 

I don't mean to turn this into any type of historical debate, but I'm honestly curious as to what you mean by "illusion" helping to free them in WWII.

I though everyone knew that the reason the Allies triumphed was because the Wehrmacht was distracted by a magic show. A magic show that lasted from June 1941 to May 1945. "Watch as I make this army disappear...."

 

I didn't hear any Europeans complaining when illusion helped free them in WWII.

Were you even born then? I certainly remeber people complaining about the Yanks at the time. And I'm sure people all over Europe, such as Czechoslovakia, Poland and East Germany, were very grateful for all the Yanks did to free them....

 

Here something RJ had to say about Faile (and female characters in general):

DomA asks whether I feel sadness at the hatred of Cadsuane.  No, nor do I feel sadness over those who dislike Egwene or Elayne or Faile or insert name here.  The characters are who I want them to be.  Some, people will like, and others people will dislike.  In any case, I’ve noticed that even Faile has her supporters.  As for her, I like her a lot.  But then, I like all of my characters, even Semirhage.  Even Padan Fain.  As a character, anyway.  As for Faile, she is a tough woman with a lot of gumption.  Taken prisoner, enslaved in truth, caught in a cleft stick by the threats of Galina and Therava, she has (1) tried to get her people to freedom as she could and (2) worked toward an escape for the rest.  However tough her situation gets, she wastes zero time on moaning about it.  She gets on with trying to make it better.  And Cadsuane?  She’s the tough maiden aunt a lot of us have had.  Not the one who tries to keep you a child your whole life.  She’s the one who began expecting at least some adult responses out of you at about age six, the one who was willing to hand you responsibilities that everyone else thought you were too young for.  You probably had a more nerve-wracking time, and more excitement and adventure, with her than you did with any three or four other adults in your life.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=24

[Hybrid]

I believe if Elayne really cared about people being afraid of attacking her, she'd use people who seem daunting. Security is better than the illusion of security. Common mistake Americans make.

 

If it's a common mistake, then why can't Elayne be making the same mistake?  Also, I believe it was stated in KOD that Elayne's bodyguards did do it for that exact reason.  Your idea of people who seem daunting is the illusion of security.  Having bodyguards who seem useless may be inviting attacks, but it presents no illusion of security.

 

Regarding the whole illusion of security:

I was equating the US's fascination with security and being safe from the "terrorist threat" with an illusion of security.

 

There is almost no security against terrorist threats because you don't know who the terrorists are until they start killing people.  You can try, but you'll never be truly safe.  The point is, people would panic if they were told simply that there is no security against terrorists.  Instead, leaders have to put a good face on the situation.  The "illusion of security" helps people sleep at night.  It keeps mass panics and paranoia from occuring.

 

Regarding Faile,

I agree that Faile moved up on my respect meter after her time in the Shaido camp.  She acted responsible and kept her people together.  If it were not for her relationship with Perrin, she would not annoy me.  On the other hand, Elayne has been consistently moving down on my respect.

[RAND AL THOR]

Just a quick Q:

 

Is Faile aware that Perrin can sense her moods via smelling? I think not but want to be sure.

[Roxinos]

If it's a common mistake, then why can't Elayne be making the same mistake?

 

The "common mistake" I mentioned is mistaking the illusion of security of true security. The "illusion of security" for Elayne's situation would be using body guards that looked big and tough rather than actually being good body guards. In Elayne's case, she isn't using body guards that just look like good body guards. So she's simply not making that common mistake.

 

There is almost no security against terrorist threats because you don't know who the terrorists are until they start killing people.  You can try, but you'll never be truly safe.  The point is, people would panic if they were told simply that there is no security against terrorists.  Instead, leaders have to put a good face on the situation.  The "illusion of security" helps people sleep at night.  It keeps mass panics and paranoia from occuring.

 

It's a question of degree, mate. When you begin to substitute true security for a simple illusion of security which alienates the rest of the world and decreases our general standing in the world rather than actually protects us, you're doing more harm than good.

 

If it were not for her relationship with Perrin, she would not annoy me.

 

I completely agree. I don't believe she would annoy me if she didn't have that relationship with Perrin.

 

Is Faile aware that Perrin can sense her moods via smelling? I think not but want to be sure.

 

I believe she's aware of all of the implications of Perrin's abilities. But even if she was, I'm quite sure that it doesn't even matter. She can't begin to imagine what it's like for him, and she can't control her own scent.

 

[edited to change a simple "then" into a "than"]

[Hybrid]

If it's a common mistake, then why can't Elayne be making the same mistake?

 

The "common mistake" I mentioned is mistaking the illusion of security of true security. The "illusion of security" for Elayne's situation would be using body guards that looked big and tough rather than actually being good body guards. In Elayne's case, she isn't using body guards that just look like good body guards. So she's simply not making that common mistake.

 

I misunderstood you.  My bad.

 

There is almost no security against terrorist threats because you don't know who the terrorists are until they start killing people.  You can try, but you'll never be truly safe.  The point is, people would panic if they were told simply that there is no security against terrorists.  Instead, leaders have to put a good face on the situation.  The "illusion of security" helps people sleep at night.  It keeps mass panics and paranoia from occuring.

 

It's a question of degree, mate. When you begin to substitute true security for a simple illusion of security which alienates the rest of the world and decreases our general standing in the world rather than actually protects us, you're doing more harm than good.

 

Yes, you bring up a good point.  I'm not condoning any of the doings of the current establishment, I was just pointing out that at some point, someone has to reassure us that we are in good hands.

[Roxinos]

I misunderstood you.  My bad.

 

No worries. :D

 

Yes, you bring up a good point.  I'm not condoning any of the doings of the current establishment, I was just pointing out that at some point, someone has to reassure us that we are in good hands.

 

No disagreements here. :D

 

Now back to allowing real content!

[Brigadier]

I was hoping a thread like this would come up so that I could put my 2 cents in for Faile.  The way I see it is this:  the people of the Two Rivers began looking to Perrin for leadership when he returned from abroad.  Faile recognized this, and also realized that Perrin was unwilling to accept the responsibility that was being thrust upon him.  She didn't make him a lord.  She forced him to accept the fact that he had become one whether he liked it or not.  Personally, I don't think TR would have survived the Trollocs without Perrin's leadership, and Perrin would not have survived without Faile keeping him on track and, at the end, forcing him to pace himself.

As for their personal difficulties, none of them seem too unusual to me for 2 young people who have only been married a short time, especially since they didn't know each other for that long before they married.  Also, if I'm not mistaken, just before the kidnapping Faile was thinking about Perrin and seemed willing to admit to herself that she shouldn't be so jealous of him.  It's just a marital adjustment period.

I also interpreted Perrin's "nothing matters but Faile" statements a little differently.  It seemed to me that he made that statement at times to drive it home to the people around him that he loved Faile and wasn't cheating with Berelain.  As for the attitude, I can understand that as well.  My wife and I started dating when we were 15.  21 years later, she's still the center of my world.  4 years ago, when she was facing breast cancer, I took on a bit of a  "nothing matters but my wife" attitude.

Anyway, that's how I see it. 

[RAND AL THOR]

*waves white flag*

 

I hence forth declare a ceasfire!!!

 

Though maybe only an admin can do that.....(which I'm not BTW)....

[Majsju]

Want a "ceasefire"? Stop posting ;D

 

 

[Roxinos]

The way I see it is this:  the people of the Two Rivers began looking to Perrin for leadership when he returned from abroad. Faile recognized this, and also realized that Perrin was unwilling to accept the responsibility that was being thrust upon him.  She didn't make him a lord.  She forced him to accept the fact that he had become one whether he liked it or not.

 

Oh, no doubt that they did. But it's the method Faile did it that I have a gripe about. Perrin is not the type of person to shun responsibility. He knows when he is responsible for something, and he's smart enough to figure it out on his own and go about it. It is nice to have someone backing him up in the process. But that's not what Faile did. She didn't back him up and force him to do what he needed to do. Perrin automatically fell into place with pushing the Trollocs out of Two Rivers because it was his bloody home and he was angry that they would dare attack.

 

It was after they had been pushed out that Faile started "turning him into a Lord." Wherein she started setting up meetings with the townspeople for him. Wherein she started intentionally building a gap between him and the rest of his own people. That's something he never wanted. But Faile has this odd conception of what it means to be a Lord or a Lady and Perrin did not want to fit into that concept. I'm sure Perrin could accept being a Lord. He might not like it, but he could accept it. But Faile taught the townspeople that he's smarter and better than him. To the point that they all started going to him for things that would have otherwise been common sense.

 

The people of the Two Rivers were strong. They had survived countless centuries because they knew what needed to be done and they weren't the type of people to complain about it. They had survived drought, famine, and countless other things which affect the welfare of a farming people. But with the Trollocs, they had no clue what to do, and they turned to Perrin for leadership because he did know what to do. Perrin accepted that. But after the Trollocs were done with, they had forgotten their own sense of pride and know-how, and Faile helped them forget. Faile encouraged them to go to him for every little request and encouraged Perrin to set himself apart and above his people.

 

I'm starting to repeat myself now, so I'll stop.

[Alderthal]

...And when Faile was kidnapped and he was desperately searching for the Shaido (book 10), the people started resenting him. Part of that was his mixing up with Berelain, true, but another part of it was that he did not act like a lord (didn't set up his tent, forgot to bathe, trim his beard, go on his daily rounds to rouse the men's spirits up, etc).

 

Also, during the trolloc wars, Perrin kept asking them to stop calling him Lord Perrin, and he continues to do so, to very little effect. Faile keeps insisting that people expect him to be a lord and act like one (which they do), but he wouldn't listen.

 

When he finally starts listening and acting like a lord (mid book 10 and book 11), he starts regaining his people's respect, DESPITE the fact that they still believe him to have slept with Berelain.

 

Faile is annoying in many ways, and so is practically every character at some point or another.

[Roxinos]

Indeed. And I wouldn't complain about Faile in this situation (though, I'd still have a bit to complain about her) if she had simply left it at working on Perrin to force him to take up his Lordly reins. Unfortunately, she worked on the townspeople turning them from the people who they were into a people who needed a Lord. The reason Perrin continued for so long to say, "Stop calling me that," is because he didn't think that the people needed one. They had gotten along fine for a long time without one. But Faile did nothing to push the townspeople to be strong on their own, she pushed them to accept Perrin as a Lord. She pushed the townspeople to give up their independence to fall in line behind Perrin.

 

I do admit that Perrin's course of actions once Faile was captured wasn't brilliant. Which is one reason most people have begun to have problems with Perrin as well. Adding to why people would have problems with Faile. She's helped to turn one of the most loved characters into one of the most hated. But I'm not going into that again.

 

Perrin's actions which push himself away from his people "(didn't set up his tent, forgot to bathe, trim his beard, go on his daily rounds to rouse the men's spirits up, etc)" aren't exactly things which only a Lord should do. They're things which any man should do. What he ended up being wasn't a bad Lord, it was just a dirty and desperate person. You can't blame the people of the Two Rivers for resenting him during that time because he just turned into a slob. No one likes a slob. It had little to do with him being a Lord, I'd imagine. Except for the not helping his men's morale bit.

[Sabio]

All of this could of been avoided had he just let her stay trapped in the dream in book 3.  Let this be a lesson on what heroic deeds do to you.

 

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

I hope one of the scences in the the last book is Falie getting stuffed into a trolloc cook pot. And yes I am WoT fan.  No one could not be fan and keep rereading the series over and over.

[Arlen]

Hate to burst peoples bubbles - but in the words of eq2 gm's - faile is working as intended. what I am saying is - Mr. Jordan meant for her to be the way she is. and lets be honest - women have been manipulating men since adam and eve (if you believe) All through the series, the gals have been manipulating the boys - even Lan was not immune as Nyneave interpreted her promise to be something completely different than what Lan had wanted or intended. it is a mans fate to have his strings pulled - its a mark of his pride as to how few strings he allows.

[Roxinos]

Hate to burst peoples bubbles - but in the words of eq2 gm's - faile is working as intended.

 

We're not implying she's broken. We're just expressing our distaste for the way she's turned out and the way she's affected the plot. :D

[Arlen]

sorry - that was a bad attempt at gamer humor - anyway - what I am attempting to say is yes - she saw an opportunity for her husband, the TR folk en tire way of looking at life and how to live it changed drastically with the whitecloaks and trollocs descending upon thier small piece of earth. If Perrin is not the one to be made Lord, then someone not so altruistic will fill the void, thier independence and isolationism is something that will not be regained so yes - she set clear rules and set up ettiquette regarding Lord Perrin, these people were going to be ruled one way or another, so she made the best of it for herself and her husband.  Keep in mind that she is also the Saldean Queens cousin, and as such is going to look at things from a nobles POV while we are looking at it from Perrins, a commoner.

[Roxinos]

Keep in mind that she is also the Saldean Queens cousin, and as such is going to look at things from a nobles POV while we are looking at it from Perrins, a commoner.

 

We've seen Faile's point of view in the situation.

 

she set clear rules and set up ettiquette regarding Lord Perrin, these people were going to be ruled one way or another,

 

Yep. That's what I'm complaining about. Trying to make Perrin accept his role as a Lord is one thing. Setting those rules up and turning Perrin into the same type of Lord as everyone else rather than a Lord who came from his people and is merely respected for the things he has done or the type of Lord that Perrin would rather be (despite the fact that he didn't want to be a Lord, I'm quite sure that he would've accepted the role with enough time and persuasion) is what I'm complaining about in that particular situation.

 

Though, I do have more reasons for not liking her. And most of them involve her behavior while she was captured.

[Hybrid]

*waves white flag*

 

I hence forth declare a ceasfire!!!

 

Though maybe only an admin can do that.....(which I'm not BTW)....

 

No truce with the Forsaken.  No truce with the Shadow.

;D