Channelers at the Last Battle.

[Mr Ares]

Something is on the back of my mind though...Demandred mentioned once that as soon as he entered Shyol Goul he realeased the one power, ( i assumed in respect to the DO)  but he also said something like "no one would dare embrace the power here.." This could mean a number of things, and one of them could be that there are effects to using the one power so close to Shyol goul. This is a possible way to eleminate the unfairness.

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's POVs that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

 

Actually, even if the numbers of Dark channelers were reasonably low and ignoring the likely appearance of Sharans and the less likely of the Land of Madmen, I would think that the Shadow is at advantage. Look at it this way. TG begins. Massive armies are in the midst of battle, and there are hundreds of channelers present as well. No DF channelers have been revealed yet. All of a sudden, all the DF channelers turn and start blowing up their own forces. How much havoc do you think that will cause? They have the element of surprise and could kill a substantial amount of the Light's channelers before anyone knew something was up. Also, with the number of channelers present, it may be pretty hard to figure out who's doing what. This sort of massive betrayal would lead to chaos and defeat for the forces of Light.

Indeed. Also, the Shadow needn't utilize its DF assets on the battlefield - assassinating the leaders of an army before a battle leaving someone less competent in charge could be very helpful. Spies giving away all your plans to the Shadow. Guerilla tactics. Or just concentrating your channelers at points where the Light doesn't have as many. In a situation like that, total numbers become less important than numbers that can be brough to bear. Not forgetting the obvious point that the Light is still divided against itself. Shadow v Tower. Shadow v Rebels. Shadow v Seanchan. In any of those engagements, the odds are not quite as bad as they would be when all the Light pulls together. The Light needs everything to pay off in order to win. Although, I'm not convinced of the likelihood of either Sharans or Land of Madmenians showing up. Unless it was established very early on that these forces were working for the Shadow then it would just be too much like a Feist-esque "army from nowhere". And even then, I think that such forces should have been introduced before the last book. Most likely neither will play any large part in the last book (or any part at all, maybe). I think the Light can be shown to be badly off without any need to introduce completely unhinted of armies of Shadow-aligned channelers.

[Igrift]

Good stuff Mr Ares!

 

this quote here....

"The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment..."

 

Keeping this in mind, I wonder if RJ means by this taht the DO actually has a lot of power here in the Pit of Doom.  I guess thats assumed, but maybe more than we think.  He says "anyone" channeling here will recive punishment..I would understand a Forsaken or DF being afraid of upsetting the DO because he has control over their souls.  But anyone should be afraid?  Should I really be afraid of the DO if im not a Dark Friend?  He would have no power over me, except by what RJ is saying, that he does have the power to punish me in the Pit of Doom.  So maybe he will DIRECTLY use his powerson the forces of light during the last battle.  That or there wont be any fighting at all at the Pit of Doom, only with Rand....

 

 

[Majsju]

The Pit of Doom is where the DOs ability to touch the real world is the greatest, so I think anyone should be worried about doing naughty things there. But of course the Forsaken even more so, since they have a connection to the DO, and thus should be easier to touch than others.

[Luckers]

The Land of Madmen is not a pre-known culture. Drop what you know from the guide and from interviews, and look only at what is actiually in the books. Based on the 11 main novels we know that RJ always hints at major events, as long as you pay attention. And dropping thousands of channeler from out of nowhere onto the board is definitly a major event. Look at the "super"-shadowspawn we can expect seeing at TG, they were hinted at as early as TEOTW. But the Land of madmen? No hints whatsoever. And again, drop the guide and interviews, those are for people who wishes to go deeper whan it comes to understanding the world of WOT. You should not be required to follow all those things in order to keep tabs on the major things that happens in the books.

Unless RJ planned to spend half the prologue introducing us to a new continent, including a backstory to explain why they are appearing from out of the blue

 

I'm confused as to whether you actually read my post. In fact i must conclude that you did not. As you state, were the Land of the Madmen to represent a completely new culture i would not swallow it any more than i would the inclusion of the Sharan Empire at this late stage. That is much as i said, though i contiued with other options...

 

Thus, concluding you did not read my post, i must direct you to read it. I cannot reply beyond that.

 

Luckers. where do get there are only 300 BA?  I know it's never said anywhere but I got the impression there were more, I was thinking 1/3rd of the tower.  I think the 100 dark for the ashaman is low too.  I mean that's all we have seen but I would at least of the dedicated are leaning black.

 

I'd point out that 330 would be 1/3 of the tower. Not a massive increase on my estimation, and i doubt it'd go much beyond that.

 

As for Asha'men, perhaps... Taim is pretty blunt and draws his men in in quite obvious methods... i doubt there is a great degree of secrecy going on.

 

Judging from how the Windfinders we've seen, with the exception of Jorin in tSR, they seem very well setup for evil. I would think it fairly easy to recruit darkfriend Windfinders.  So I think number is low too.

 

Just because they are unpleasent does not make them evil, and the atha'an miere are probably the hardest race to infiltrate.

 

Luckers what did you mean by the Aiel Instant Army was hard to swallow?  That is their culture, history replete with examples of warrior cultures.

 

Rand went into the Waste and gained an army 400,000 strong including 6,000 channelers. Both numbers are pretty extreme. RJ pulls it off with the degree of detail he gave gathering those groups--near two full books. Doing it again with the Sharans in the space of one book is too much.

 

No way 1/3 of the AS would be BA. That would basically mean that more than 1/3 of the worlds population were potential darkfriends, since Aes Sedai should be quite representative of the world. And the percentage of potential darkfriends in the world would be higher than the percentage of BA in the White Tower, since recruiting must be very discrete. As RJ put it, once someone is approached, she either goes BA or she goes dead. And while the fact that accidents does happen every now and then so the occasional death is relatively easy to cover up, there is a limit to how many bodies they can leave behind.

 

I disagree that the Aes Sedai accuratly represent the worlds mentality. By nature of their recruitment methods they only include women who had the drive and ambition to seek the Tower out despite its dark reputation, and the dangers of the world. Women like that would be more inclined and capable of seeking out the shadow to gain further power--it is more or less the same mentality that led them to the Tower.

 

 

[Hybrid]

 

I disagree that the Aes Sedai accuratly represent the worlds mentality. By nature of their recruitment methods they only include women who had the drive and ambition to seek the Tower out despite its dark reputation, and the dangers of the world. Women like that would be more inclined and capable of seeking out the shadow to gain further power--it is more or less the same mentality that led them to the Tower.

 

 

 

Well, the Tairen girls, at least, have no choice.  Others in the more enlightened areas, like the Borderlands, don't have to deal with the Tower's dark reputation.  I agree that Aes Sedai would tend to be the more driven women, but this is because they seek the Tower out on their own initiative.  The Aes Sedai do not do any active recruiting, with perhaps the exception of Emond's Field.  Therefore, they may be more power-hungry or ambitious than the average woman, but I don't think you will necessarily find a larger percentage of Darkfriends.

 

Now the Black Tower on the other hand, ... that's a different story.

[DemandredFO]

We've only seen rulers and soldiers from the borderlands, for some reason, even though the AS let it get trashed in the Trolloc Wars and let Malkier die, they still respect them.  I'm not sure if they are an entirely representative sample of the borderlands population.

[Hybrid]

Well, the Aes Sedai did not let the whole world get trashed in the Trolloc Wars, they were too busy being besieged in Tar Valon.  And no Traveling or Skimming existed then.

 

They did not let Malkier die either.  They couldn't get there in time to do anything.  Shienar couldn't get there either, and they're a lot closer.  The Malkieri are also no representative of the Borderlands population either.  They may be bitter to the Tower, but the fact is that they were betrayed by their own people and overrun before anyone could help them.

[Majsju]

Thus, concluding you did not read my post, i must direct you to read it. I cannot reply beyond that.

 

So, you did not actually mean what you said with claims like

The Land of the Madmen... i believe this is where the shadow has been gathering channelers... the stories about the place strike me as a massive smokescreen... but meh. Alternatively it might be a ripe recruitment area for the Shadow. ill given them 4,000 channelers too... male and female.

[...]

If, on the other hand, it is the place where channelers discovered in the mainland as a result of Ishamael's recruiting, then yes i could accept that because in that scenario the characters would originate from pre-known cultures. Establishing it could be done in a single chapter.

 

Interesting. Anything else you did not actually mean?

[Luckers]

I meant both things. And clarrified them. Don't play the fool Maj, you mistepped, holding on to it is pointless.

 

Well, the Tairen girls, at least, have no choice.  Others in the more enlightened areas, like the Borderlands, don't have to deal with the Tower's dark reputation.  I agree that Aes Sedai would tend to be the more driven women, but this is because they seek the Tower out on their own initiative.  The Aes Sedai do not do any active recruiting, with perhaps the exception of Emond's Field.  Therefore, they may be more power-hungry or ambitious than the average woman, but I don't think you will necessarily find a larger percentage of Darkfriends.

 

I disagree--the recruitment method is specifically skewed. We are dealing with a fairly rough society, for girls to venture out into it at the age of 16 to 18 and seek out the Tower despite its dark reputation--and even in the borderlands the Tower has a reputation of manipulation and fearsome power--then you have a sisterhood that at its first is based on ambitious women. Those traits are then specifically edified during training--it results in the fact that sisters are of above average ambition, will, and desire for power. All of these things lend themselves to seeking the shadow, and as such there would logically be a higher percentage of darkfriends amongst sisters than the general populace.

 

It has to do with the base material.

 

 

[Majsju]

Luckers, if you had bothered to read my posts carefully you would have noticed that I shot down your "clarifications" quite throughly.

 

But perhaps you are so devoted to your theory that you just do not wish to see it. *shrugs*

[Luckers]

You haven't even addressed them. Look, I'm not gonna get into a fight about this, either comment on what i actually said, or lets all walk away.

[Majsju]

I hate repeating myself, but...

 

The Land of madmen does not exist within the story, period.

Having thousands of channelers appear out of nowhere, and explain it with "Oh yeah, there is this entire continent down south where channelers run around for the forsaken to pick up at will. And conveniently enough, they are all darkfriends." is so ludicrous that even goofkind would cringe at the idea.

 

It would be on the same level as Nynaeve discovering that Lans ring is actually the Ring of Tamyrlin, and it happens to be a superstrong sa'angreal. Actually, such a doscovery would be more likely than the Madmen-channelers, since the Ring of Tamyrlin at least has been mentioned in the books.

 

And here is the thing, no matter what little "clarifications" you come up with, they will not change anything.

[Ndshacker]

Ok lets do some elementary math and assumption here. There are approximately 2000 sisters in the tower and 1500 ashaman so far right?(If im a bit off it wont matter.) There are twice as many kin as there are sisters. The aiel have about 350 that can channel far about three quarters of the shaido, (we learned this when perrin faced them.) SO lets say there are 450 wise ones who can channel in each of the 11 clans remaining. Im not gonna count on mysterious armies appearing from Shara or The Land of Madmen (Which is yet to be actually mentioned)

 

So 2000+ 1500+ 4000+ 3850= 11350 Channelers of varying strength.

 

When Rand used the choeden Kal he said he felt like he was holding as much as a thousand men could. He couldn't move while he was doing that. I doubt hes gonna be sitting down with his eyes closed while he faces the dark one, so for the fairness of it Ill say hell be holding about as much as 500 men.

 

We can count on about 25% of the sisters and ashaman bieng dark. I say this because, They have to divide the members into groups of three to manage them (Which points to alot), as well as they have dark ajah in every ajah towards the top. I would say for argument 5% in the kin and aiel to be safe.

 

So we can count on about 1000 dark channelers. We must take into account the seanchan, but as you remember the return is short on damane, and I highly doubt whe the big guy breaks free they'll have enough warning to ship over thousands of damane. Now imagine the dark ones power, now imagine the 1000 dreadlords, now imagine hordes of shadow spawn, now imagine the chosen, now imagine 10000 channelers and a large army facing it all. It'll be a big mess, and you'll only find out what happens if you read the next book.

[Mr Ares]

We can count on about 25% of the sisters and ashaman bieng dark. I say this because, They have to divide the members into groups of three to manage them (Which points to alot), as well as they have dark ajah in every ajah towards the top. I would say for argument 5% in the kin and aiel to be safe.

The cell structure is not there to manage the BA. It is there for the purpose of secrecy. If one Black is caught, she can only give three names. Two of those names will be members of her Heart, so they can only name the others in it and one outside it. Unless they caught Alviarin, they couldn't wipe out the BA with a single stroke. If the BA became aware of some leaks, simply kill all the Sisters that could have been named and the trail goes cold.

 

now imagine 10000 channelers and a large army facing it all. It'll be a big mess, and you'll only find out what happens if you read the next book.

Why? The Shadow has infiltrated the Light very thoroughly. Why not imagine an Asha'man foolishly letting off a Blossom of Fire too close to his own lines and creating a hole. Or an officer refusing to retreat from a fight even though he is outflanked and suffering hideous casualties - to a comparatively minor loss to the enemy. Or someone forgetting to lock a gate, or falling asleep on watch and not noticing the trollocs getting in, or any number of other minor incompetencies that are actually something more sinister.

[Kaznen]

Ok lets do some elementary math and assumption here. There are approximately 2000 sisters in the tower and 1500 ashaman so far right?(

 

You're more then a bit off.  Try dividing the numbers by 2, then you'll have a much closer figure.

[Ndshacker]

 

You're more then a bit off.  Try dividing the numbers by 2, then you'll have a much closer figure.

 

You must include the novices and accepted/soldiers and dedicated, perhaps I should've been more clear that the entire tower(s) would be involved.

[Ndshacker]

The cell structure is not there to manage the BA. It is there for the purpose of secrecy. If one Black is caught, she can only give three names. Two of those names will be members of her Heart, so they can only name the others in it and one outside it. Unless they caught Alviarin, they couldn't wipe out the BA with a single stroke. If the BA became aware of some leaks, simply kill all the Sisters that could have been named and the trail goes cold.

 

I understand that they couldn't wipe it out, and i wasnt saying that they were going to wipe it out. I was saying that in order to have black ajah in the top positions of every ajah, they would have alot. There's 13 in the supreme council alone, im sorry but their not gonna have 13 head people for 50 as some people thought there were, I know im probably out by a bit, but all the figures add up to naught in the end.

 

 

Why? The Shadow has infiltrated the Light very thoroughly. Why not imagine an Asha'man foolishly letting off a Blossom of Fire too close to his own lines and creating a hole. Or an officer refusing to retreat from a fight even though he is outflanked and suffering hideous casualties - to a comparatively minor loss to the enemy. Or someone forgetting to lock a gate, or falling asleep on watch and not noticing the trollocs getting in, or any number of other minor incompetencies that are actually something more sinister.

 

So what your saying that there will be more than 1000 dreadlords? Or their large army has a lot of idiots in it? I see the point that there will be fools in it, but perhaps you forgot to read my last line? "you'll only find out what happens if you read the next book."

[Hybrid]

Quote

Why? The Shadow has infiltrated the Light very thoroughly. Why not imagine an Asha'man foolishly letting off a Blossom of Fire too close to his own lines and creating a hole. Or an officer refusing to retreat from a fight even though he is outflanked and suffering hideous casualties - to a comparatively minor loss to the enemy. Or someone forgetting to lock a gate, or falling asleep on watch and not noticing the trollocs getting in, or any number of other minor incompetencies that are actually something more sinister.

 

 

So what your saying that there will be more than 1000 dreadlords? Or their large army has a lot of idiots in it? I see the point that there will be fools in it, but perhaps you forgot to read my last line? "you'll only find out what happens if you read the next book."

 

What Mr Ares is saying is what I said earlier.  The Shadow's channelers aren't going to be stupid enough to all suddenly declare, "Hey, we're Darkfriends.  Quick, organize your forces before Tarmon Gaidan and wipe us out."  Instead, I believe that during TG, a number of channelers will suddenly change sides.  In the middle of the battle, such a betrayal may even go unnoticed, and the ensuing chaos would be the difference between victory and defeat for the forces of Light.

[Mr Ares]

There's 13 in the supreme council alone, im sorry but their not gonna have 13 head people for 50 as some people thought there were.

I know. But you said they were using the cell structure to manage their numbers. They're not. The cell structure is there for secrecy. If they had cells of 20 there would be a much greater loss if one of those cells was broken, but for purely administrative/managerial purposes there is no real gain to having such small cells.

 

Why? The Shadow has infiltrated the Light very thoroughly. Why not imagine an Asha'man foolishly letting off a Blossom of Fire too close to his own lines and creating a hole. Or an officer refusing to retreat from a fight even though he is outflanked and suffering hideous casualties - to a comparatively minor loss to the enemy. Or someone forgetting to lock a gate, or falling asleep on watch and not noticing the trollocs getting in, or any number of other minor incompetencies that are actually something more sinister.

So what your saying that there will be more than 1000 dreadlords? Or their large army has a lot of idiots in it? I see the point that there will be fools in it, but perhaps you forgot to read my last line? "you'll only find out what happens if you read the next book."

Obviously you missed my last line, specifically the part in bold. Hybrid has the right of it. The Shadow has a huge advantage at the moment in that they are hidden. Line them up against each other and the Shadow will have a smaller army. But when the enemy is a part of your army, when the enemy can destroy you from within, when you don't know whose side someone is on until it's too late, when they have put that knife in your back, when the damage is done, how do you fight that? The general that leads his army into destruction may be an idiot. Or he may be a DF on a mission. The asha'man that belew a hole in his own lines may have made a mistake. Or he may have done exactly what he intended. It's not the sort of war you can win with swords. Oh, and by the way, it will be possible to find out what happens without reading the book. Just being pedantic.

[Luckers]

I hate repeating myself, but...

 

The Land of madmen does not exist within the story, period.

Having thousands of channelers appear out of nowhere, and explain it with "Oh yeah, there is this entire continent down south where channelers run around for the forsaken to pick up at will. And conveniently enough, they are all darkfriends." is so ludicrous that even goofkind would cringe at the idea.

 

It would be on the same level as Nynaeve discovering that Lans ring is actually the Ring of Tamyrlin, and it happens to be a superstrong sa'angreal. Actually, such a doscovery would be more likely than the Madmen-channelers, since the Ring of Tamyrlin at least has been mentioned in the books.

 

And here is the thing, no matter what little "clarifications" you come up with, they will not change anything.

 

"Little clarifications"... lol. My friend, you misunderstood me, and i restated myself in order to clear it up for you. Since then you have pointedly clung to your original interpretation--which was wrong--oh, my words allowed for that, but i wonder that you continue to fight a position that i don't actually hold--because once again, you are correct, but your comments have absolutely nothing to do with my position. Clearly i hate repeating myself too, so instead ill quote myself--from the post ive instructed you three times to read (psst. This is where reading peoples 'clarifications' help you not to look bad).

 

Firstly, on the subject of locals becoming darkfriend  channelers...

 

Quote

You think Shara would be hard to swallow from a plot perspective, but happily accepts the land of madmen?

 

No--if the Land of the Madmen are a seperate political power with their own people then it has exactly the same problems as Shara.

 

Yup, thats right, i agree with your comment.

 

On my actual thoughts regarding the possible inclusion of the Land of the madmen.

 

If, on the other hand, it is the place where channelers discovered in the mainland as a result of Ishamael's recruiting, then yes i could accept that because in that scenario the characters would originate from pre-known cultures. Establishing it could be done in a single chapter.

 

Yup, thats right, completely unrelated to anything you've been clinging too.

 

Try and remember my friend, that these are my thoughts we're commenting on, my clarifications when you've misunderstood are very important--and clinging to your original comments as if they are somehow relevant just makes you seem a prat. I say that as nice as i can.

 

So, here in the end i'll repeat myself. Deal with my position, not what you want my position to be, or walk away.

 

 

[Cockta]

Seriously Igrift, read the Art of War, by Sun Tzu. I think it will help you understand that sheer numbers is never an advantage. Rand, Perrin, and Mat as well could benefit from the Art of War, especially the two first. I just hope the Shadow don't trash Randland so much as they did the last time.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

sheers numbers IS an advantage...its just that there are better strategic avenues that lead to greater advantages...

[Majsju]

Luckers, your "restating" does first of all not change the fact that you originally opened for thousands of channelers from the land of Madmen to show up fighting for the Shadow.

 

You think Shara would be hard to swallow from a plot perspective, but happily accepts the land of madmen?

 

No--if the Land of the Madmen are a seperate political power with their own people then it has exactly the same problems as Shara.

 

Yup, thats right, i agree with your comment.

 

On my actual thoughts regarding the possible inclusion of the Land of the madmen.

 

Except that my concerns have never been the eventual political structure of a place that is non-existing storywise.

 

If, on the other hand, it is the place where channelers discovered in the mainland as a result of Ishamael's recruiting, then yes i could accept that because in that scenario the characters would originate from pre-known cultures. Establishing it could be done in a single chapter.

 

Yup, thats right, completely unrelated to anything you've been clinging too.

 

 

How is that unrelated? The Land of Madmen is not a pre-known culture, and it can not, and will not be established in a single chapter. That is the very core of what I have said.

[DemandredFO]

Question, do we know how many traitors are on the traitors list at the black Tower or how many Taim says have gone "mad"? 

[Cockta]

Another question: What and where the hell is this so-called Land of Madmen?! I hear so much about this land, but I hear nothing in the books!