Channelers at the Last Battle.

[Majsju]

The Land of madmen is a continent located south of the Sea of Storms. It is not mentioned in the books, but it is described in the BWB.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I don't think the channelers from the Land of the Madmen are going to play a part in the Last Battle, apart from perhaps being able to feel the amount of channeling going on at that battle.  They don't seem to be characters that come into play during this series, just as Shara is a land that is there but not really explored by the author very much - nor the channelers at Shara.  We don't know if there are prophecies in the Land of Madmen concerning TG or if it is truly a chaotic society...and the same with Shara - we're not sure if they have any inclination that TG is on its way or what their part in it is, if anything.

 

I think the Battle will consist of the known channelers from societies such as Aiel, Seachan, Athan Miere, and the White and Black Towers.

[Cockta]

What is the BWB?

[Majsju]

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, written by Teresa Patterson from RJs instructions. A compilation of geography, history, describing the various cultures etc.

[Guest Ravik]

Lol! Sun Tzu's The Art of War is like Windows for Dumbies! A few general advices, nothing concrete.

I think that TG's going to be a sort of blitzkrieg on SG. Imagine: Rand, Mat, Perrin a few Asha'man and Aes Sedai, perhaps even a Wise One or two, Travel to SG, some of the channelers and Mat with the Horn make a diversion whille Rand and the rest go down to the Pit and seal the Bore. Channeling has to be the key in winning, but not in a big scale battle. Think, Rand is not very trusting these days, what is more logical him leading a small strike force consisting of the few people he trusts or him leting him self get cought up surrounded by potential enemies in a huge battle?

[Cockta]

I wouldn't say the Art of War is worthless. Those who have followed the Art of War have been succesful, and these are not just generals, but politicians, and even businessmen. Please make more arguments than that it is a few general advices and nothing concrete before you post something like that.

[balefireruinssteaks]

It's doubtful that Rand, Mat, Perrin and a few Ashaman, Aes Sedai and Wise Ones would be enough to get to Shayol Gual, find a way through that ridiculous maze of unreality and then just channel a new seal onto the Bore.

 

I think it's going to take all the channelers...anywhere.  That's why Rand's task is so huge.  Uniting the world is not such an easy thing.

[Majsju]

None of the above.

 

A "blitz" with an extremely small group will absolutely not happen. They have no idea what awaits them at SG, and if you are going in blind, you might want to be able to defend yourself.

 

Sending in all available channelers will not happen either, since that would be begging for seeing the civilisation beaten back to the stoneage. The events at SG will be the most important battle, but it will be far from the only one.

 

Expect Rand to bring a small force to SG, 20-30 channelers and a few thousand soldiers. And the rest divided with at least three major battles in the mainland.

[Mr Ares]

Channeling has to be the key in winning, but not in a big scale battle.

Why? Especially given the importance of Mat and Perrin (non-channelers, remember) to victory.

[Cockta]

Maybe he meant that channelers would play a big role in TG.

[Guest Ravik]

I wouldn't say the Art of War is worthless. Those who have followed the Art of War have been succesful, and these are not just generals, but politicians, and even businessmen. Please make more arguments than that it is a few general advices and nothing concrete before you post something like that.

Read my post again. I didn't call it worthless, I said it is not concrete enugh. I've read it. Have you? You can't say that people who read it become succesfull, their succes has to do with them fulfilling their potentials, it is not caused by a particular book they've read. The book ofers advice that is to general, you can even that it is all obvious. As for furthetr argumentation, it is up to you to first give pro arguments, since it is your point that succes in life depends on reading the book. If you realy want something good on strategy, tactics and logistics read something by Sir Charles William Chadwick Oman.

It's doubtful that Rand, Mat, Perrin and a few Ashaman, Aes Sedai and Wise Ones would be enough to get to Shayol Gual, find a way through that ridiculous maze of unreality and then just channel a new seal onto the Bore.

A "blitz" with an extremely small group will absolutely not happen. They have no idea what awaits them at SG, and if you are going in blind, you might want to be able to defend yourself.

 

Sending in all available channelers will not happen either, since that would be begging for seeing the civilisation beaten back to the stoneage. The events at SG will be the most important battle, but it will be far from the only one.

 

Expect Rand to bring a small force to SG, 20-30 channelers and a few thousand soldiers. And the rest divided with at least three major battles in the mainland.

Ok. What did Lews Therin do with the 100 Companions?

Why? Especially given the importance of Mat and Perrin (non-channelers, remember) to victory.

Well, for Rand &co. to win they have to get rid of the DO, since he must not be destroyed sealing him again is the only way to do that, and that is going to take the One Power, I'm quite sure it is not going to be done with glue or planks. Mat's role, I think, is going to be to blow the Horn and to devise an attack plan.

[Majsju]

Ok. What did Lews Therin do with the 100 Companions?

 

+100 AOL channelers plus about 10000 soldiers. So basically, LTT did exactly what I say rand will do, only x5, and without female channelers. The major difference will be what exactly Rand & Co will do to seal the bore.

[Guest Ravik]

The problem for Lews Therin, I think, was that he didn't bring with him any female Aes Sedai. It says that the greatest things were done using both the male and the female half, sealing the Bore properly requiers then boys and girls working together.

I don't think that my opinion differs that much from yours.

[Fryn]

Ok. What did Lews Therin do with the 100 Companions?

 

+100 AOL channelers plus about 10000 soldiers. So basically, LTT did exactly what I say rand will do, only x5, and without female channelers. The major difference will be what exactly Rand & Co will do to seal the bore.

 

I sometimes get the impression that this turning of the wheel is slightly different. The fact that the female channelers wouldn't help seal the bore led to imo a half done job, where had females been there they would of had more strength and could of sealed it in one fell swoop. I wonder if in previous turnings if females did help seal the born and the second dragon wasn't needed. It almost seems like Rand and co is a cleanup that isn't always needed.

 

I almost get the feeling that the DO has more of a chance at succeeding in this turning than he did in previous turnings of the wheel. To me the DO wants to stop the cycle so that time is astraiht line not a circle. A straight line will have an end while a circle never will.

 

The problem for Lews Therin, I think, was that he didn't bring with him any female Aes Sedai. It says that the greatest things were done using both the male and the female half, sealing the Bore properly requiers then boys and girls working together.

I don't think that my opinion differs that much from yours.

 

It wasn't LTT fault. He wanted to take females with him, but there was a power strugle. I am kind of suprised that he didn't even recieve help from his wife though.

[Guest Ravik]

In the Age of Legends the Dark One was sealed good, it was Mierin who drilled a hole in his prison right?

As for his chances, wasn't he free for like ten years in the Age of Legends? I think it is the same for every Age, good always wins by the skin of their teeth.

[Majsju]

I sometimes get the impression that this turning of the wheel is slightly different. The fact that the female channelers wouldn't help seal the bore led to imo a half done job, where had females been there they would of had more strength and could of sealed it in one fell swoop. I wonder if in previous turnings if females did help seal the born and the second dragon wasn't needed. It almost seems like Rand and co is a cleanup that isn't always needed.

 

I almost get the feeling that the DO has more of a chance at succeeding in this turning than he did in previous turnings of the wheel. To me the DO wants to stop the cycle so that time is astraiht line not a circle. A straight line will have an end while a circle never will.

 

Rather, had the female Aes Sedai joined LTT, both Saidin and Saidar would have been tainted.

The way the Wheel and the Ages are set up, there is simply no way that the bore could have been sealed perfectly in the AOL, because that would mean that instead of the Breaking, and everything leading up to the Dragon being reborn, the world would use the third Age to get back to the state it was in during the AOL. Details can change with every turning of the Wheel, but there is no possibility for an entire Age to be completely rewritten.

Heck, there would not even be a third Age, only AOL pt2.

 

In the Age of Legends the Dark One was sealed good, it was Mierin who drilled a hole in his prison right?

As for his chances, wasn't he free for like ten years in the Age of Legends? I think it is the same for every Age, good always wins by the skin of their teeth.

 

Mierin was one member of a research tem that worked with their new discovery. And she was one half of a pair that actually drilled the bore, the other Aes Sedai was beidomon.

And the DO was never free during the AOL, he could only touch the world through the bore. And this was far longer than 10 years. The War of Power lasted 10 years, but the DO was able to touch the world for a 100 years before the war started.

[Cockta]

I wouldn't say the Art of War is worthless. Those who have followed the Art of War have been succesful, and these are not just generals, but politicians, and even businessmen. Please make more arguments than that it is a few general advices and nothing concrete before you post something like that.

Read my post again. I didn't call it worthless, I said it is not concrete enugh. I've read it. Have you? You can't say that people who read it become succesfull, their succes has to do with them fulfilling their potentials, it is not caused by a particular book they've read. The book ofers advice that is to general, you can even that it is all obvious. As for furthetr argumentation, it is up to you to first give pro arguments, since it is your point that succes in life depends on reading the book. If you realy want something good on strategy, tactics and logistics read something by Sir Charles William Chadwick Oman.

 

I have read the book, that is why I wrote that post. I usually don't like heading into a discussion without any proof. Beside, the book is full advices, and though they are a bit commonsence, they can offer some help to a strategist when it comes to battling an enemy. I will check out this Sir Charles William Chadwick Oman to see what he has written, and consider if his texts are worth buying, or not.

[Fryn]

I thought there were some ages where people didn't even know the DO existed, and only a few there was a confrontation? And each turning was divided by a set number of ages

 

I know that is how it is supposed to work maj. However over all of the turnings of the wheel the DO might of realised that unless he changed things he would have no chance of winning based on how the wheel turned. What if instead of going for pure victory he went for a more chaotic next turning of the wheel. So that the next turning was less circular and more eliptical. If this was continued over numerous turnings of the wheel there would be 2 points along the wheel that had a much greater chance of the wheel breaking and becoming a straight timeline over a circular one.

 

The pattern allows for little changes each and every turning, so over time the DO could distort the ages, at least thats how I see it. However there could be turnings that have fix intervals to push teh wheel back into allignment. Based on some of the other princibles RJ uses I could see him using something like that.

 

I could easily be wrong though, and have no problem with that.

 

Are you sure that Saidar would of been tainted? It seems like the DO treated males in a harsher light than females in the AoL and it was only after the taint that he trusted them more. In some of the forsaken meetings you get the impression that the DO felt threatened by some male forsaken and had them killed off, while I see no mention of the same action against female forsaken (It is mentioned a bit in the forsaken meetings when tehy discuss Rand's plot to cure the taint). It might be that the DO has more control over saidin than he does over Saidar. I guess we will never know the answer for sure =(. I remember one of the Aes Sedai wondering in the books what would happen if females had helped (I think! I seem to recall it at least)

[Majsju]

I thought there were some ages where people didn't even know the DO existed, and only a few there was a confrontation? And each turning was divided by a set number of ages

 

Exactly. From how we number the Ages, the first Age ended when channeling was discovered.

The AOL spans from learning to master channeling, to the discovery of the DO, and the shift from AOL to third Age probably starts with the sealing of the Bore, and is completed when the dust has settled from the Breaking.

The third Age spans from rebuilding the world after the Breaking, to the DO being completely sealed away.

 

Then you have Ages 4-7 for the world to completely forget all about the DO, and also lose the ability to channel so it can be rediscovered next time the first Age comes to an end.

 

The pattern allows for little changes each and every turning, so over time the DO could distort the ages, at least thats how I see it. However there could be turnings that have fix intervals to push teh wheel back into allignment. Based on some of the other princibles RJ uses I could see him using something like that.

 

Thing is, having LTT managing to perfectly seal the DO away would not be distorting the third Age, it would completely rewrite it.

RJ described the nuances between the same Age in different turnings as watching a tapestry. From a far, it loks the same, but look at the details, and you will find small changes.

This however would mean looking at a completely different wall.

 

Are you sure that Saidar would of been tainted? It seems like the DO treated males in a harsher light than females in the AoL and it was only after the taint that he trusted them more. In some of the forsaken meetings you get the impression that the DO felt threatened by some male forsaken and had them killed off, while I see no mention of the same action against female forsaken (It is mentioned a bit in the forsaken meetings when tehy discuss Rand's plot to cure the taint). It might be that the DO has more control over saidin than he does over Saidar. I guess we will never know the answer for sure =(. I remember one of the Aes Sedai wondering in the books what would happen if females had helped (I think! I seem to recall it at least)

 

Where do you get the idea that the DO would treat male chosen harsher than female?

And the DO most definitly would not feel threatened by a chosen.

[Cockta]

Maybe the DO is male?

 

As to why the DO would be afraid of the male channelers, I really don't know. Well, why would he anyways?

[Fryn]

WH chap 13:

 

I guess it doesn't mention that the DO killed more male chosen over female out of suspicion. However Grandel's quote is telling. "You who channel saidin will no longer need his protection. Will he still trust your ... loyality ... then?"

 

Why would the male channelers need protection from the taint to prove their loyalty when the female forsaken need no such protection. That would mean that the DO should trust the female forsaken less than the males at the current time, but Grandel's tone makes me think that isn't the case.

 

It's all guess work, but to me it seems like the females are innately trusted, while the males were only innately trusted when they NEED the DO bond or they go insane. Unless the DO has something else to keep over the female forsaken?

[Mr Ares]

that is going to take the One Power, I'm quite sure it is not going to be done with glue or planks.

Not done with glue or planks is the only possible alternative to the OP? Glad we could sort that out. In other words, it will take the OP because you say so.

 

To me the DO wants to stop the cycle so that time is a straight line not a circle. A straight line will have an end while a circle never will.

So why does he want a straight line? Because he likes endings? Why not just end time? Given RJ described Shai'tan as the ur-control freak, I tend to see his final goal in terms of complete and total control of the universe.

 

Maybe the DO is male?

Strictly speaking, He is neither male nor female.

 

WH chap 13:

 

I guess it doesn't mention that the DO killed more male chosen over female out of suspicion. However Grandel's quote is telling. "You who channel saidin will no longer need his protection. Will he still trust your ... loyality ... then?"

 

Why would the male channelers need protection from the taint to prove their loyalty when the female forsaken need no such protection. That would mean that the DO should trust the female forsaken less than the males at the current time, but Grandel's tone makes me think that isn't the case.

 

It's all guess work, but to me it seems like the females are innately trusted, while the males were only innately trusted when they NEED the DO bond or they go insane. Unless the DO has something else to keep over the female forsaken?

I disagree. I think males have marginally more trust because they still need Him, while the women don't. However, a failure on their part to stop the Cleansing reduces their need for Him, and thus diminishes His trust. After all, if they were His faithful servants, surely they would have stopped Rand? That they didn't might mean they wanted the Taint Cleansed, which can't be for any reason good for their master, can it? Shai'tan is not a trustful being.

[Fryn]

To me the DO wants to stop the cycle so that time is a straight line not a circle. A straight line will have an end while a circle never will.

So why does he want a straight line? Because he likes endings? Why not just end time? Given RJ described Shai'tan as the ur-control freak, I tend to see his final goal in terms of complete and total control of the universe.

 

I agree he wants to end everything, I am more intersted in the how he plans to do it. RJ in most of his work bases things on science. The whole clensing of taint was one such example. RJ also set down the foundation of what the wheel is and represents, which means you can deviate equations around its meaning. You can also mathematically determine its strength and determine how one would go about trying to break the wheel. Breaking the foundations of the wheel causes some issues especially when it is circular. The easiest way I can see to break the wheel is to change its shape so it strains and is weaker in certain points.

 

It could still fit in the descriptions RJ gave btw. If some ages were shorter or longer and were looked at in an entirety they would still look similar enough, however the fact that they were shorter or longer would change the shape of the wheel.

 

The weakest point to attack are not the 2 points but the sides of an elipse. These would be the ages that over time the DO had extended. So if the dragon originally locked the DO bore at the very end of one age and the very begining of the next it could be done by a single dragon. However if it was draged out it would still be done in those 2 ages but it would require more than one dragon. These ages would over time become the sides of the elipse.

 

It's just a theory mind you, but it does fit within what RJ mentioned about the ages. He never said that the ages always took the same amount of time to complete. Just that the events of those ages were similar if looked at together. I could easily see the major events of the last few ages happening at a faster rate, to the point that it was fit in a single lifetime (especially of someone that can live for several centuries).

 

It's just one of the hows of the book I would love to know more about =)

[Mr Ares]

To me the DO wants to stop the cycle so that time is a straight line not a circle. A straight line will have an end while a circle never will.

So why does he want a straight line? Because he likes endings? Why not just end time? Given RJ described Shai'tan as the ur-control freak, I tend to see his final goal in terms of complete and total control of the universe.

I agree he wants to end everything.

You agree? With who? I asked a question, I didn't state an agreement (quite the reverse, I indicated He wanted control rather than destruction). You're agreeing with yourself? Redundant, surely?

 

Note: the above opinions are solely the opinion of Mr Ares and do not represent the opinion of Mr Ares, and their presence here should not be taken as an endorsement.

 

Note: the above note is not endorsed by Mr Ares.

[Fryn]

... I agree that the DO wants to destroy the wheel and all of time. Which I guess you don't think is what the DO wants, and I apparently misread control and destroy.

 

The book references show him more as a destroyer than a controler. He wants to control so he can destroy. If he wanted control he wouldn't want to destroy the wheel of time. The best insight to the DO is Ishy as he seems to be the only forsaken to understand the DOs ultimate goal. The rest think he plans to remake the world as he sees fit and place them in charge.

"The death of time will bring me power such as you could not dream of, worm"

If the wheel of time is broken then so is the one power. Without the wheel to push and pull the two they have no basis. The DO thinks little of the one power, and you see quotes like "precious one power" used by Ishy in a jesting manor.

 

Destroying The wheel seems to be his goal to me, at which point he will have control of everything and nothing. I don't see him wanting control over the wheel which teh creator made though.