Strategy during the Cleansing...

[Asmo]

During the Cleansing, it always struck as odd to me that "X guy was skulking through the forest", or "Z dude was hiding at a hilltop" or whatever. Since they apparently had to go to such an easily ambushable place to do the thing, couldn't Cadsuane at least have made Narishma wipe out the surrounding hills and forests, so they'd have clear sight of anyone approaching instead of sending out advance parties at risk of them getting killed?

 

And I won't even start on what the Forsaken should have done instead of a blind, all-out approach from all directions.

[Majsju]

The clear sight works both ways, had Narishma done that the forsaken could have stayed on a distance and unleash whatever destruction they could think of.

 

It would have been a different story if Rand and the others had been in a fortified structure, and channeling had not been involved...

[Asmo]

The clear sight works both ways, had Narishma done that the forsaken could have stayed on a distance and unleash whatever destruction they could think of.

 

It would have been a different story if Rand and the others had been in a fortified structure, and channeling had not been involved...

 

What? The Forsaken didn't need clear sight to attack, they knew exactly where the access key was. They came as close as they needed for their weaves to reach the hilltop, and attacked, but with Callandor whoever is weaving can channel much farther than the Forsaken even if they had come linked, because the greater the amount of the Power you are wielding, the farther away the maximum weaving distance for you is.

[Rag_Rok]

Maybe using narishma to clear the surrounding land might have taken a lot out of him even with callandor and they decided he should be at 100% for the forsaken? Also the chance of premature discovery... blasting all those hills would take a while and people might feel it ect...

[Swigaro]

While deforesting a large swath around a City as large as Shadar Logoth would certainly be possible for a channeler, it would be time consuming and use a fair bit of energy.  Rand was going for surprise, knowing that as soon as he started cleansing the source, every channeler on the planet would know what he was doing.  If he had people start clearing the land around the city, it would have been noticed, and he would lose what little surprise he had.  Besides, as it was suggested above, clear views go both ways.  It would give as much, if not more advantage to Rand's enemies.  Remember too that Cadsuane had Ter'angreal that detect channeling.  She knew what the enemy was doing almost as soon as they did.  It is a much better use of Narishma's talents to say, "Strike there!" than to spend the morning giving a clear field of view, which was unnecessary, considering the tools at her disposal...

[Majsju]

Yes, the forsaken knew where the access key, and thus Rand was. Which did them no good, since Cadsuane protected Rand with a shield. That shield meant that they had to take out the other channelers with Rand, and there having a clear sight would have benefitted the forsaken more than Rands protectors.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Judging from the fact that they were successful at the Cleansing with very few casualties I would say their strategy was great.

 

Having three or four people linked and each group armed with angreal really made the Light seem a lot more foridable than ever before. Their strategy is to work together and make the absolute most of what they had, and they did. None of the Forsaken got close to Rand, one of the Forsaken died as far as we know (Osan'gar) and the rest were kept at bay with very little worry or effort.

 

Their strategy was brilliant. While the Forsaken have superior knowledge and incredible individual strength, that counts for jack when the Light work together like they did. I would say their strategy at the Cleansing was almost flawless. Almost

[RAND AL THOR]

I wish we got a little more detail about how the Cleansing actually occured. Though I love the scene, I wished to understand it better. eg what was that huge black dome EXACTLY? and how did Rand interpret the instructions from the finns etc...

[Guest Dreadlord]

I imagined the black dome to be the Taint in physical form. I thought it was great.

 

I remember a long time ago there was a theory that the Taint is a result of the True Power infecting Saidin. Although I dont believe this at all now, I almost wish it was, and that the black dome became a pool of the True Power much as the Eye of the World was a pool of untainted Saidin, waiting for someone to use it... I expect people are guna react to that as if I presented it as a theory of my own unless I wrote this bit. It wasnt my theory, and there are too many things wrong with the idea anyway.

 

Also with respect to the strategy of Rand and co, I would like to add that even the location was the best choice available. By doing it at Shadar Logoth it meant that the Shadow would find it hard to send armies to stop them. Shadowspawn must be hard pressed to enter Shadar Logoth, and although it was a side effect the entire city was destroyed, which means Mashadar is most likely dealt with as well. Two birds with one stone and all that

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

um...they didn't exactly have a choice about the location...

 

they weren't in the city though...and unless they had done it in the blight, there would be no way to send armies at Rand and co. in any case

[DemandredFO]

The only things both sides could have done better is all out attack.  Even though Cadsuane had Narishma attack channeling, the forsaken got away.  Same with the Light, Ebin was killed because Daigion didn't attack Aran'gar as soon as he/she appeared.  There were NO bystanders at the Cleansing everyone that was there was either an enemy or had incredibly bad luck.  Everyone should have attacked on sight.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

um...they didn't exactly have a choice about the location...

 

they weren't in the city though...and unless they had done it in the blight, there would be no way to send armies at Rand and co. in any case

UNQUOTE

 

What??? They didnt have a choice? What makes you think that? Of course they had a choice. Rand identified Shadar Logoth as the best place, did he not?

 

And your saying that the only way to send an army to stop Rand is if it was near the Blight...

 

How many Forsaken are there left? Osan'gar because he hasnt died at the start of the Cleansing yet, Aran'gar, Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage, Cyndane, Graendal, Moridin. Each Travels to the Blight, gathers an army of Shadowspawn, then Travels to Shadar Logoth with that army. That would have meant at least half of Rand channelers would have had to fend off the Shadowspawn, making it way easier for the Forsaken to pick them off as they would be preoccupied. Not that hard at all. They could have had loads of Shadowspawn and even Darkfriends there if they had planned it properly.

 

Why is it people are slating the Lights strategy, and not the Shadows?

[Dakeyras]

I always assumed Rand had to use Shadar Logoth with the way he seemingly channeled the taint into the taint of Shadar Logoth. The whole 2 evils clashing and destroying themselves. Where else was he to find an evil comparable to the taint?

 

Also, Shadowspawn can't Travel and Rand laid a voodoo on the Aridhol waygate that kills Shadowspawn in a "vicious" way. There was no way for the Shadow to amass a Shadowspawn army at SL.

[The true source]

Hold on a sec.  Did he do it at shader logath?  Or a random hill?  I have forgotten.

[Swigaro]

KOD SPOILER*********

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The forsaken couldn't have brought an army to the battle, whether it took place at Shadar Logoth or the Blight, unless Rand were to choose a sight where a Shadowspawn army happened to be hiding.  Shadowspawn can't pass through a gateway, we learn that in the attack on Rand in KOD.  In addition the waygate in Shadar Logoth was fairly effictively trapped, if memory serves.  Even if it weren't trapped, it would be easy to nurtalize even a huge force if they had pass through something roughly the size of a door. 

[Guest Dreadlord]

O yes I forgot Shadowspawn cant pass through gateways sorry. So, that also goes in Rands favor then; he knew the Shadow had virtually no way of getting an army to Shadar logoth whatever happened.

 

I agree about Aran'gar though; she got away and she shouldnt have. Thats the annoying thing about circles; women normally take control, meaning when whoever it was sensed Aran'gar channel Saidin all he could do was shout it. Id say Aran'gar being captured is the only way the Light could have done better at the Cleansing

[Majsju]

We have no inkling that Rand new about shadowspawn not being able to pass through gateways at this point, that is knowledge he got from LTT, and those things tend to drop in little by little.

[aslansrevenge]

Yes there is HE set the traps around the Gatway himself in an previous book

[wvlr]

Judging from the fact that they were successful at the Cleansing with very few casualties I would say their strategy was great.

 

Having three or four people linked and each group armed with angreal really made the Light seem a lot more foridable than ever before. Their strategy is to work together and make the absolute most of what they had, and they did. None of the Forsaken got close to Rand, one of the Forsaken died as far as we know (Osan'gar) and the rest were kept at bay with very little worry or effort.

 

Their strategy was brilliant. While the Forsaken have superior knowledge and incredible individual strength, that counts for jack when the Light work together like they did. I would say their strategy at the Cleansing was almost flawless. Almost

 

 

 

I disagree with this.

 

Rand had total control of the place and time that he chose to do the Cleansing.

 

Instead of fully using those advantages he just jumps into the task leaving everyone else to make last minute arrangments to defend him.    It was increadibally stupid on his part and on all his peoples part for not pulling him asside and telling him that with a little more preparation he could better ensure his own safety and the safety of this people, while using simultaniously wiping out a significant portion of the Forsaken.

 

Yes, the Cleansing had to be done near Shadar Logoth but he had the choice of North/South/East/West for picking the best terrain to give him the best advantage and the Forsaken the least.

 

Then there was the timming - he could have easily waited 1 to 2 hours while his people marked out a circle about 100 to 200 yards radius as a place his protecting groups could safely patrol while looking for attackers.    Then he could have - NO SHOULD HAVE had his groups go outside that marked peremiter and set up multiple HIGH POWERED inverted traps to kill anything that went into those areas for the next 24-48 hours.

 

Only after his crew was fully prepared should he have started the Cleansing - Actually - I think that he should have had a FALSE start, so that as soon as a significant portion of the Forsaken had arrived - he could have turned around and hit them himself with the massive power of both keys!

 

Instead Rand pissed away the huge advantage that he had at the Cleansing.   After the Cleansing the DO should have been having to work double overtime to put most of his dead Forsaken back in new bodies.

 

 

 

 

 

How many Forsaken are there left? Osan'gar because he hasnt died at the start of the Cleansing yet, Aran'gar, Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage, Cyndane, Graendal, Moridin. Each Travels to the Blight, gathers an army of Shadowspawn, then Travels to Shadar Logoth with that army. That would have meant at least half of Rand channelers would have had to fend off the Shadowspawn, making it way easier for the Forsaken to pick them off as they would be preoccupied. Not that hard at all. They could have had loads of Shadowspawn and even Darkfriends there if they had planned it properly.

 

Why is it people are slating the Lights strategy, and not the Shadows?

 

No that is not true   -   See Swigaro's post above.   KOD   SPOILER

 

 

 

 

Shadowspawn can't use a gateway it kills them.

[aslansrevenge]

I feel that he acted as fast as he did because he is not sure that he can trust all of the people he has with him and because he is not sure that he can do what he has setout to do so his nerve get the best of him. Remember he is stiil young he might act old and experienced but he is not

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Yes there is HE set the traps around the Gatway himself in an previous book

 

you're confusing gateways and waygates...

 

a gateway is that thing you walk through when you Travel

 

a waygate is that structure that transports you to an alternate dimension and are situated by ogier groves.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

No that is not true - See Swigaro's post above.   KOD   SPOILER

UNQUOTE

 

I already replied to it before you posted...

 

As for Rand making a false start and then blasting the Forsaken... How long was Rand into the Cleansing when they arrived? He would have had to wait until the Forsaken turned up-which was expected but not a definite-and that could have wasted too much time.

 

Rand isnt a tactician or a strategist. He knew he had to get on with it, he took the rest of his superchannelers to protect him and Nynaeve, so why bother dishing out orders when they could probably devise a better plan on their own? (which they did). I remember reading in a Raymond E Feist book, a guy says "If you want to look like you know what youre doing, dish out orders to the soldiers. If you want good results, tell your lieutenant what you want doing." Different series, yet the rule makes sense.

 

How on earth could the Forsaken stand up to what Rands followers did? Even without any major planning the Light was all but unstoppable in Cleansing Saidin. Rand would have known-or been pretty darn sure-that the Forsaken have no angreal or sa'angreal, and without that the only thing they could have done was link, which they didnt.

 

I really think its the Shadows strategy that should be disputed. They arrived at the Cleansing knowing something incredible was happening, knowing that each alone couldnt stand up to the phenominal ammount of the power being used, yet they still arrived individually as if they could solo it. If the Chosen had linked, they could have matched Callandor I reckon, since when Saidin and Saidar are used together it amplifies the power of your weave

[Dakeyras]

Actually - I think that he should have had a FALSE start, so that as soon as a significant portion of the Forsaken had arrived - he could have turned around and hit them himself with the massive power of both keys!

 

I don't think the Choedan Kal was designed to be as user friendly as, channel for a few minutes without actually doing anything, then stop, then blast some silly Forsaken. Rand was fighting for his life when he was using the Choedan Kal. Min tells Cadsuane he's in agony after a few hours of channeling via the CK and Nynaeve's pretty much flat out from just maintaining the link. It seems to me to be an all or nothing scenario.

 

Other than that I agree with you though. Rand rushed into the cleansing without even thinking about the Forsaken reacting to the beacon he's about to set off.

 

As for the Shadow, it's Moridins fault. He's Nae'Blis, if he went along he could have ordered the Forsaken to link with him leading the circle. Instead he sat about somewhere being all mysterious.

[Majsju]

As for the Shadow, it's Moridins fault. He's Nae'Blis, if he went along he could have ordered the Forsaken to link with him leading the circle. Instead he sat about somewhere being all mysterious.

 

Well, we have gotten a few quite good hints why Moridin stayed away from the cleansing. And even if he had been there, him leading, or eve being part of a circle seems pretty much out of the question.