Recycled Bad Guys

[Guest Toad]

One of the things I just don't like about WoT is the receycled bad guys.  Why isn't dead, dead?  I know this is just a problem of perspective from my point of view - too much black and white with no gray.  And of course it is Jordan's world.  But was anyone else disappointed when a 'dead' bad guy got recycled with a new gender and/or abilities?

 

Maybe most of the folks here actually like the recycling.

[RAND AL THOR]

Yes. The Forsaken are the chief opponents of Rand. Each time he killed one, I was all YAYYAYYAY! Then they come back again and make all his efforts seem useless.

 

What;s to prevent the DO from bringing them all back after TG too (assuming that the DO lives which he most likely will).

[Guest Toad]

Yeah, lack of closure is very unsatisfying for me.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think its great! The Forsaken being reincarnated was one of my favorite twists until you start realising people are really someone else in disguise. Ishamael being reincarnated is probably one of my best things about the Shadow, since he really is the best they have, considering how much he did while not bound. Ishamael/Moridin is definitely my favorite bad guy simply because all his moves have been m,ajor ones, everything we hear about him places him on a higher level than the rest of the Forsaken. I mean, Ishamael wasnt even fully bound! He had periods where he could wander the land when the others were bound for the entire 3000 years, and such an excellent manipulator is definitely worth reincarnating. And even though I think Ishamael was great I like Moridin even more simply because he is Nae'blis and linked to Rand, that link NEEEEEEEDS to have a decent part in the next book. Communication (telepathy), clairaudience/clairovoyance, whatever. It could be a brilliant way to build up to the Rand vs Moridin one-on-one Ive been waiting for

 

The thing that annoys me though is that Rand STILL doesnt know they are being reincarnated. I at least hoped he would have found out somehow from Osan'gar before he died (which, I might add, could very well not be the case, since I dont remember reading an RJ quote stating he actually was dead). I hope in AMoL Rand figures out Moridin is Ishamael.

[Guest Toad]

Part of the problem for me was that it wasn't obvious who was reincarnated into who/what.  But that is probably because I didn't give it enough thought.  So much fiction, movies, TV, and etc spoonfeed everything to us that I guess I just got lazy.  Maybe I should be thanking Jordan that his fiction requires a few brain cells to fully appreciate.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Thats the thing about the series I like most. If you read between the lines you see a hell of a lot more and after reading it you begin to see things you didnt see before. Hints and clues and all that.

 

I remember reading not long since the scene where Rand randomly selects Dashiva to be his bodyguard Ashaman.

 

Rand: "Whats his name?"

 

Taim: "Dashiva" he said slowly "Corlan Dashiva."

(Taim said it slowly, as if being careful to give Rand Osangars alias name and not the real one.

 

Rand: "He will do."

 

Taim: "I would advise to take someone further along with the Power. Osangars head is always in the clouds, he isnt all there, abit loopy. Take someone who will require less teaching."

(I didnt actually think anything of it the first time I read it, but now its obvious. Taim REALLY didnt want him to take Dashiva because Dashiva is Osangar and Osangar could help Taim convert Ashaman into Darkfriends. It makes sense now!)

[Bob T Dwarf]

At least with those recycled, we get to see Rand make a little progress.

 

The second and third books were the problem for me.

 

Rand kills Baalzy, but whoops... here he is again at the beginning of book two.  Then, Yay, he kills him at Falme, but nope, he gets to play Spiderman in the Stone of Tear.

 

So, when everybody and their long dead uncle starts showing up again in LoC, even though I should have seen it coming, it was just ... jeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzz.

 

Overall, it's a cheat and a really cheezy way to handle the Bad Guy problem.

[Asmo]

There's only one answer for you... Balefire. I think now that Semirhage will explain how four of the Forsaken have been ressurected, Rand will decide he had better capture the remaining ones, or at least kill them with Balefire.

 

As for the reincarnation in its nature... it's a part of RJ's world, so I accept it. If it wasn't there, then the world wouldn't be exactly as RJ wanted it to be, so the books probably wouldn't be as good.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, I suppose perhaps it seems a litte cheap. But reading the series for the first time... it added an element of mystery and intrigue to things. I enjoyed trying to figure out who was who, and I thought that it made for a great plot twist because all of the "good guys" were out there thinking they were halfway to an easy victory, but really the Shadow still has the upper hand.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Overall, it's a cheat and a really cheezy way to handle the Bad Guy problem.

UNQUOTE

 

Personally I think it makes for brilliant reading. Not only does it allow us to see the Dark One actually doing something himself, something only he could do, I think RJ did it way better than in other books I have read where the dead bad guy comes back. The timing has always been right, and when a Forsaken dies it is only one task done, there is no sense of finality behind it like when the MAIN bad guy dies.

 

Before we met any of the Chosen they seemed almost invincible. Yet later on, we really learn that all they are is a strong channeler who doesnt age. Whats the big deal? The big deal is that when you kill them, they come back, and with a different face. Who is to say it isnt possible to do it more than once with the same Chosen? As long as the Dark One catches the soul in the time window its all good.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It'd be nice if there was a kind of bad guy erosion to match the erosion we see in Rand though.  He keeps losing bits and pieces of himself, but they get bright shiny new bodies every time.

 

The Wheel is falling down on the job.  There's supposed to be balance, dangit.

 

Seven million dang chapters.  Eleventy-two billion words.  And we've only managed to lose two bad guys for sure?  TWO??? ???

[DemandredFO]

It's actually three; Rahvin, Asmodean and Sammael.  Be'lal being dead depends on opinion, personally I believe he is Taim.  For all the people who don't like bad guys being recycled, it's FANTASY and very well written fantasy.

[Mysterious]

Be'lal was balefired by Moiraine... I'm not familiar of any dispute of this position.

 

From the spotty evidence given in the books and RJ's insistence that Demandred is not Taim, it is likely that Taim is a newly raised Dreadlord and not one of the Forsaken.

 

Maybe the male equivalent of Alvirian (Sp?) in the BT?

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Mr Ares]

Be'lal was balefired by Moiraine... I'm not familiar of any dispute of this position.

 

Mysterious

RJ said that balefire makes it impossible to recover souls because Shai'tan's window of opportunity would be gone before he knew it existed unless the amount of balefire used was very small. Moiraine admits she can only do a few seconds. Some people contend that RJ was giving himself a get out clause, and that the amount used on Be'lal would count as very small, thus he is eligible to be brought back. So they fix on Taim. Because, apparently, having no similarities beyond both being dark male channelers can't be a coincidence. So Be'lal must be disguising himself as the person with the least Be'lal-like methodology going and claim it makes sense, when really it makes as much sense as Be'lal=Lini.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I agree, I just wish people would accept that Taim is just that-Taim. Nobody in disguise, nobody reincarnated, and I even hope he hasnt been turned against his will; Taim should be the first male channeler of this Age to turn to the Dark WILLINGLY.

[Guest Toad]

It's actually three; Rahvin, Asmodean and Sammael.  Be'lal being dead depends on opinion, personally I believe he is Taim.  For all the people who don't like bad guys being recycled, it's FANTASY and very well written fantasy.

 

Just because it is fantasy doesn't mean there aren't rules.  Any well-written fantasy, sci-fi, or fiction in general has to have rules or the reader won't accept what the author is trying to sell.  Doesn't mean they have to be the same rules that govern our world, but they have to be consistent and believable in the world he created.

 

So just saying it is fantasy doesn't give a free pass.  Does anyone recall when in the WoT series the first forsaken got recycled?

[Luckers]

Lord of Chaos. That being said, its first referenced that the Dark One can do that in the Eye of the World by Lan... so....

 

As for rules in fantasy--RJ himself said it best "If your going to ask people to accept something that isn't real, you'd best make everything else as real as possible". Given he mentions this in the first book--indeed, if memory serves in the first third of the first book--than i'd say he's done his job.

 

 

As for Be'lal, i agree its pretty unlikely that he wasn't expunged by balefire--Moiraine may be weak compared to Forsaken, but she's hardly weak in terms of the full scale of the One Power.

 

As for him being Taim--that is flat out absurd. The two are completely opposed in tempremant and methodology.

[Guest Toad]

If it is mentioned in book 1, then I 'll buy the whole recycling thing hook, line, and sinker.  But if it isn't even mentioned until Lord of Chaos, then Jordan was cheating.  "Oops, running out of bad guys, guess I'll have to bring some back."

[Luckers]

Umm... I believe i just said it was mentioned in book one.

 

Forgive me, im a little confused by your comment.

[Guest Toad]

You did.  I'll have to look it up.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

If it is mentioned in book 1, then I 'll buy the whole recycling thing hook, line, and sinker.  But if it isn't even mentioned until Lord of Chaos, then Jordan was cheating.  "Oops, running out of bad guys, guess I'll have to bring some back."

UNQUOTE

 

Didnt Elan Morin aka Ishamael say to Lews Therin in the prologue of EotW that Shaitan could bring Ilyena back? I believe that was the first reference that the Dark One could have someone dead brought back, although of course no more detail was given then.

 

There has been plenty of foreshadowing that the Dark One can bend the rule of death for his servants. "The grave is no bar to my call."

[Guest Toad]

There's a difference between saying you can do something, perhaps to taunt your enemy, and actually doing it.  I just think the whole recycing thing could have been set up better.  But I'm okay with being wrong - I have been plenty of times before.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Youre right, there IS a difference between threatening to do something and being able to do it. The thing for me is I am sick to death of people not believing the bad guys simply because they are the bad guys.

 

The Dark One: "The bar is no grave to my call."

 

Rand: "Yeah whatever, Father of Lies and all that, you're talking crap. Prove it."

 

The Dark One: "OKAY!" *Reincarnates Ishamael*

 

WOOHOO! Finally a bad guy said something that NOBODY CAN INTERPRET AS A LIE!

[Guest Toad]

Right, the horn of valere can do it.  But can the Dark one do it under his own steam?  Obviously he can, just think it should have been demonstrated before Lord of Chaos.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Moridin may have been about merely minutes after Ishamael died for all we know. A few times recently people have been asking questions about some bad guys as if we have seen all that is going on, when it is the nature of stories to have at least some suspense, so if we saw that Ishy was back too early it wouldn't have come across as good as it did.

 

I personally think Moridin was on the scene for some time before Osan'gar and Aran'gar came into play.