Recycled Bad Guys

[Bob T Dwarf]

"May haves" don't get us anywhere.  All we can work with is what we're shown.

 

Moridin doesn't show up as Moridin until CoS ( I believe ).  Since the stranger in Shadar Logoth is supposed to be him, the first time we see him active is PoD.

 

Given that Aginor and Balthamel don't get recycled for a full year-and-a-half, and that Cyndane first appears about 81 days after Lanfear disappears, there's a wide but not instantaneous time period involved in transmigration.

 

They don't keep bodies on ice and the ones used must be suitable for a channeler.  Then it takes some unspecified time for the soul and body to adjust to each other.  Finding male channeler bodies is harder than finding female ones.  Balthamel ended up female because of that.

 

So, PoD seems about right for when Moridin could have been completely through the process and become active.

[RAND AL THOR]

Moridin is introduced with Moghedian's escape which I think occurs in either book 6 or 7.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The LoC Epilogue, actually.  That overlaps with the beginning of CoS which is when we first are exposed to Moridin.

[aslansrevenge]

I think RJ covered this when he called the Dark One the Lord of Death. If he is the Lord of Death then he can bring anyone back that he wants if thier soul has not been destroyed by Balefire

[Majsju]

Actually, RJ said that there is a window when the DO can seize someones soul in order to bring it back. Which is why the DO can not bring anyone killed by balefire back, the death took place before the window even opened (which hints at the window being quite small).

 

And one common misunderstanding, balefire does not destroy a soul, it cuts the thread that soul had from the pattern. The soul does what all dead souls does, returns to wherever it is souls frollick waiting for reincarnation.

[airminxx]

I always figured since I started reading the books when they first came out in early 90's that the series was originally intended to be a trilogy, then Jordan kept going and going  with the story line, and as a result had to recycle the bad guys to keep the series going.  I don't realistically believe the series should have had a nearly 20 year time span.  Even if Lan does mention it in the first book as Luckers said, I think Jordan prolonged this story line and had to get creative in doing so.  (Not that I mind having all these great books to read!)

[Guest Dreadlord]

I personally think RJ always intended the Forsaken to be reincarnated. The Black Tower being infested with Darkfriends was an original plot I think, and I think Osan'gar was an original member of that infestation.

 

I personally love the fact that the Forsaken are being reincarnated, it shows the Dark One getting involved directly in a better way than him making the weather go to extremes.

[Mr Hindley]

Personally, I love the idea of the Forsaken being reincarnated - as long as they then went and did something interesting / useful. Osangar didn't really achieve very much other than a failed attempt on Rand's life. Aran'gar did some general stirring and gave Egwene some headaches, but nothing really concrete, and it's hard to say that Egwene's cause would be significantly further ahead without Aran'gars efforts. Cyndane, despite representing the second-most important Forsaken in plot terms, has contributed sweet diddly so far, and there's not going to be much room in AMOL for her to have a major role. So that just leaves Moridin. Who has, in concrete terms, achieved... Um..? Er..?

 

Not that the non-recycled ones are much better, but that's an existing debate anyway.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Osan'gar wasnt intended to be with Rand all the time, so when Rand picked Dashiva to go with him it made it abit hard for Osan'gar to do what he needed to.

 

Plus you gotta admit Moridin is cool

[RAND AL THOR]

You could say that the DO had no choice. He had quite a number of Chosen at his command in the AoL. Now, TG is coming and the (already much reduced) number of Chosen is further dwindling. He needs commandos for TG to supervise the war. He likely thought that the best thing for him to do is revive the dead ones.

[DemandredFO]

I know almost doesn't count.  But Osangar almost killed rand at the cleansing, he was saved by a darkfriend.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Did Osan'gar even attack Rand at the Cleansing? I cant seem to remember anything like that, only that Aran'gar was there and she lashed out when people realised she held Saidin, and I dont even think she attacked Rand. Nobody got close enough to Rand to nearly kill him.

 

PS I dont know what relevance that had to recycled bad guys...

[RAND AL THOR]

Osan'gar was there.

 

Scrambling to the top of the hill, Osan'gar dropped to the ground on his belly and smiled as he crabbed sideways to shelter behind a tree. From here, with saidin in him, he could see the next crest clearly, and the people on it. Not as many as he had expected. One woman was making a slow circuit around the crest, peering into the trees, but everyone else was still, Narishma sitting with Callandor glowing in his hands and a woman's head on his knee. There were two other women that Osan'gar could see, one kneeling over the other, but they were obscured by a man's back. He did not need to see the man's face to know al'Thor. The key lying on the ground at his side named him. To Osan'gar's eyes, it shone brightly. In his head, it overwhelmed the sun, a thousand suns. What he could do with that! A pity it had to be destroyed along with al'Thor. But still, he could take Callandor after al'Thor was dead. No one else among the Chosen possessed so much as an angreal. Even Moridin would quail before him once he had that crystal sword. Nae'blis? Osan'gar would be named Nae'blis after he destroyed al'Thor and undid all that he had done here. Laughing softly, he wove balefire. Who would ever have thought that he would turn out to be the hero of the day?

 

Walking slowly, studying the forested hills around them, Elza suddenly stopped as a nicker of movement caught the corner of her eye. She turned her head slowly, and not as far as the hill where she had seen that flash. The day had been very difficult for her. In her captivity among the Aiel tents at Cairhien it had come to her that it was paramount for the Dragon Reborn to reach the Last Battle. It had suddenly become so blindingly obvious that it astounded her she had not seen it before. Now it was clear to her, as clear as saidar made the face of the man trying to hide on that hill while peeking around a tree trunk. Today, she had been forced to fight the Chosen. Surely the Great Lord would understand if she had actually killed any of them, but Corlan Dashiva was only one of those Asha'man. Dashiva raised his hand toward the hill where she stood, and she drew as hard as she could on Callandor in Jahar's hands. Saidin seemed well suited to destruction, to her. A huge ball of coruscating fire surrounded the other hilltop, red and gold and blue. When it was gone, that other hill ended in a smooth surface fifty feet lower than the old crest.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Probably the most beautiful part of the Cleansing.

 

Elza is slightly worried that helping with this might be seen as violating her oaths to the DO.  Then she spots Dashiva trying to sneak around a hilltop.  "Well," she thinks, "that's only a renegade Asha'man, so no problem." and vaporizes him and half the hill.

 

Aaaaaahhhhhh, the wonderful irony. ;D

[RAND AL THOR]

Probably the most beautiful part of the Cleansing.

 

Elza is slightly worried that helping with this might be seen as violating her oaths to the DO.  Then she spots Dashiva trying to sneak around a hilltop.  "Well," she thinks, "that's only a renegade Asha'man, so no problem." and vaporizes him and half the hill.

 

Aaaaaahhhhhh, the wonderful irony. ;D

 

Exactly! Osan'gar got what he deserved for his masquerading! yayaya!

[aslansrevenge]

"May haves" don't get us anywhere.  All we can work with is what we're shown.

 

Moridin doesn't show up as Moridin until CoS ( I believe ).  Since the stranger in Shadar Logoth is supposed to be him, the first time we see him active is PoD.

 

Given that Aginor and Balthamel don't get recycled for a full year-and-a-half, and that Cyndane first appears about 81 days after Lanfear disappears, there's a wide but not instantaneous time period involved in transmigration.

 

They don't keep bodies on ice and the ones used must be suitable for a channeler.  Then it takes some unspecified time for the soul and body to adjust to each other.  Finding male channeler bodies is harder than finding female ones.  Balthamel ended up female because of that.

 

So, PoD seems about right for when Moridin could have been completely through the process and become active.

 

 

I think you may be wrong about this i think that the reason Balthamel recived a female body is because the Dark One has a twisted mind. The Dark One does not need to find body of a channeler the soul uses the one power and not the body. this is proven when a mans soul is put in a womans body and he/she can still use the Male side of the One Power.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, there's a genetic component, as well.  Recessive.  It takes a link between the body and soul to channel.

 

The DO is indeed twisted, but, being sexless, gender is immaterial to it.  Balthamel simply got the second suitable body that came into the Dark's possession.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Exactly! Osan'gar got what he deserved for his masquerading! yayaya!

UNQUOTE

 

I just wish Rand had found out who he was before that happened.

[Guest Toad]

This has gotten pretty far afield from the original topic, but interesting stuff in any case.

 

What I was really wondering though - was Jordan cheating (as a fiction writer)by recycling bad guys as Rand and others killed them off.  To me, it seemed like the easy way out - rather than inventing new bad guys or taking the story in a different direction as danger from the forsaken waned.

 

Again, this is not about whether you like recycled bad guys, but if you think Jordan did enough to set up the possibility.

[Majsju]

This has gotten pretty far afield from the original topic, but interesting stuff in any case.

 

What I was really wondering though - was Jordan cheating (as a fiction writer)by recycling bad guys as Rand and others killed them off.  To me, it seemed like the easy way out - rather than inventing new bad guys or taking the story in a different direction as danger from the forsaken waned.

 

If RJ had not planned recycling the forsaken from the beginning, he would not have had so many killed of, simple as that. So recycling them is about as much cheating as having the bad guys survive against all odds.

[Guest Dreadlord]

There was plenty of foreshadowing that the Dark One could bring people back from the dead. In EotW prologue Elan Morin aka Ishamael told Lews Therin the Dark One  could bring Ilyena back from the dead. Ba'alzamon continuously taunted Rand about serving in life or after death, and one of the Dark Ones sayings is the grave is no bar to my call. I pretty much established in the prologue of Eye of the World that the Dark One could bring back the dead, and since it was so early  I accepted straightaway that death isnt always final in this story. I think RJ did it better than in most cases I have read of in other books

[Guest Toad]

Good points Dreadlord.  I guess the disconnect for me was that it didn't actually happen until book 6 or 7.

[Majsju]

"The Grave is no bar to my call" is the enscription on the Horn of Valere...

[Snowy Dawn]

``Aaaaaahhhhhh, the wonderful irony.''

 

RJ is lavish with this. Remember when Rand denies to Barthanes Damodred (in book 2) that he is either Aiel or Andoran royal blood? There is a bit of foreshadowing that he is both, of course, but it isn't until book 4 (Aiel) and then book 6 (Tigraine) that he gets full blown confirmation. His resemblance to an Aielman is already bruited about when Gawyn tells him that as he is leaving the palace in TEOTW, but it isn't until Dyelin tells him about Gitara Moroso and Tigraine that Rand has a clue that his birth-mother Shaiel was in fact Tigraine Mantear. I wonder a bit about that, tho'. As house bard to house Trakhand, you would think that Thom might have seen Tigraine close up and  be clear on the the resemblance of Rand to his birth mother. By the time Thom is trying to aid Rand in Tear---and lessen Moiraine's influence on Rand---he knows that Rand was born on Dragonmount, and is probably not Two Rivers blood. 

[Guest Toad]

"The Grave is no bar to my call" is the enscription on the Horn of Valere...

 

But the Forsaken are not tied to the horn.  And the horn does not bring the heroes back to life - weren't they still wraith-like?  Different scenario from a Forsaken that was killed and put in a new body.