The Battle Ajah

[RAND AL THOR]

Okay, so the Green Ajay calls itself the 'Battle Ajah' and claims that it stands ready for Tarmon Gaidon. But does it make sense for an Ajah to wait for TG for 2000 years? The Aes Sedai do not participate in any other wars (except for Hawking's Siege).

 

If we look at any other Ajah, they are doing what their Ajah means them to. White settles disputes and Browns gather knowledge. But what have the Greens done? Also, while they are called the Battle Ajah, how are their preparations for TG different from any other sisters'? It seems like the Green Ajah has no real purpose and, perhaps, they bond multiple warders to pass their time when they are supposed to be doing something USEFUL!!!

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

Actually the Green Ajah, were front line troops durring the Trollic wars. They were the counter to the Dread Lords. And fought in almost every major battle.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]   

[Elgee]

Added to that there are always skirmishes up in the Borderlands with Shadowspawn - one would think that the Green Ajah would spend much of their time there.

[RAND AL THOR]

Added to that there are always skirmishes up in the Borderlands with Shadowspawn - one would think that the Green Ajah would spend much of their time there.

 

Exactly. Quite a number of borderlander lives could be saved if Aes Sedai decide to take a hand.

[Elgee]

I should have stated that more clearly: My belief is that they DO spend much of their time there. AS are well respected in the Borderlands, one presumes because they are active there.

 

Consider how many Greens there are, though.  If the total number of AS are less than 1000, and the Greens are not the largest Ajah, there could be a total of, say, 100 Greens? Not all of those would be active up there, as some would serve in various other capacities (ie Advisers, etc). So let's say 60 or so are available to fight up in the Borderlands - which is a HUGE stretch of land to protect. Channeling is exhausting work - not something they could keep doing indefinitly, without going off somewhere to recuperate.  So of the available 60, let's say about 30 are on "active duty" at any given time - stretched out over an area of ... 2000 miles ? I have no idea how long the Blight Border is, but I'm sure someone would be able to tell us.

 

How many soldiers are there in all the Borderland armies combined ?

[Lille]

 

How many soldiers are there in all the Borderland armies combined ?

 

I think i saw the number 200 thousand concerning the borderlanders who are in Andor. Not sure though.

[Luckers]

Thats correct, Merilille gives that estimation. There would probably be somewhere around another hundred thousand left at the blight, maybe more.

 

My position is that this is yet another issue resulting from a character flaw in Aes Sedai. By waiting for girls to approach the Tower--girls already awed enough to risk the world to find the Tower--and then segregating them from the world for up to twenty years in their period of training I think that by the time Aes Sedai become Aes Sedai they are so enured with the 'image' of what an Aes Sedai is that they don't actually 'do' anything... after all, if Aes Sedai haven't already done it, then its hardly worth doing.

 

It's not so much that they don't want to do it, it simply doesn't occur to them. Despite their so-called skill, they actually achieve very little. And not just Greens in the fight against the Shadow in the blight--where are the Yellows? Why don't they have hospices set up around the world. They are supposed to dedicate their lives to healing, but any healing they do is at best accidental, a result of circumstance. Indeed the only major organised and planned healing we've seen done was of Mat, and there was not a single yellow involved.

 

What of the Grey? They are supposed to mediate, yet where is the evidence of their success? Arad Domon and Tarbon were on the edge of war before Rand and the Seanchan came up. Tear outlaws channeling, Amadacia forbids Aes Sedai entrance. Their efforts have engendered no great peace amongst the nations. No concordance or alliance. The Reds? 24 men found in the last twenty years including those like Owyn who were never brought to the Tower. There are near to a hundred thousand men with the trait for channeling in the westlands, there has to have been more male sparkers than that. Even with the three in four dying of a lack of training. And what of the simple fact of False Dragons?

 

Browns--where are the new discoveries, new ideas? Three thousand years of highly intelligent women dedicated to discovery, and none of them using it to any degree. They conduct no research. Perform no experiments.

 

Thankfully i don't think this will continue much longer. Already events are enforcing them into being more pro-active.  They are learning the difference between the image of achievment and actual innovation, especially with the examples of Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene. And that innovation and fresh thought will continue now, especially once some of the older novices gain the shawl.

[trakand_01]

I love the Greens. I would like to see them released of the one oath (not to kill except in defence blah blah) for the purposes of Tarmon Gaidon. I'm pretty sure that if Egwene can boulster the numbers in the next few months, they could do some serious damage before the Dark Armies figured out that they weren't held by oaths any more (of course you'd have to get rid of Mesaana first).

 

However, as you say there have been few major battles that the Green have been part of recently. We know that Alanna is willing to put herself in danger (she purposefully defied Perrin's orders at DW because that was the only way she could fight), but I wonder how many of the newer Greens would get to Tarmon Gaidon, and say "What, you mean I have to stand on that open ridge there and wage an assault on those hundreds of thousands of Darkfriends down there, which includes Semirhage and Graendal? Are you mad? I dont remember reading THAT in the Job Description."

 

;D

[Kara_J]

Okay, so the Green Ajay calls itself the 'Battle Ajah' and claims that it stands ready for Tarmon Gaidon. But does it make sense for an Ajah to wait for TG for 2000 years? The Aes Sedai do not participate in any other wars (except for Hawking's Siege).

 

Well the Green Ajah does not know when Tarmon Gaidon is going to be. For all they knew it could have been tomorrow, or next year,..or next decade. It's all very well watching out for prophecy but that could have started any time.

 

I'm sure that they were doing other jobs in the mean time but they still had to prepare for Tarmon Gaidon as it could have started whenever.

[Asmo]

Aes Sedai can kill Shadowspawn without being in danger. Normal Darkfriends would be no problem for channelers. The Forsaken would be considered deadly enough on sight that the Aes Sedai would feel endangered without the Forsaken actually attacking them, so that solves this problem. Besides, there are only a handful of the Forsaken, and a great many sisters who can link. Plus, most of the Forsaken will be offed by the main squad. The only real danger to Aes Sedai in battle is the Black Ajah.

[RAND AL THOR]

Luckers' point about the Yellows Healing is very good. There really ought to be hospitals etc...just as he said, any healing done is accidental!

[Elgee]

That would make a pretty interesting discussion: Let's say a few of us are transported to Randland, we are what we are on here (ie AS, Warders, Ashaman, Philosopher's, etc) - what would we do? How would we organize things?

[Luckers]

Aes Sedai can kill Shadowspawn without being in danger. Normal Darkfriends would be no problem for channelers. The Forsaken would be considered deadly enough on sight that the Aes Sedai would feel endangered without the Forsaken actually attacking them, so that solves this problem.

 

That would probably depend on the Aes Sedai--concider that Moiraine waits for Be'lal to start to strike at her before she balefires him--specifically, not until he starts to raise his hand does she attack him.

 

The big question of this i think will come with the issue of gateways during the Seanchan assault on the Tower. It seems almost certain that without the rebels involvement Tar Valon would fall, yet would not creating a gateway for an army to attack another army not be creating a weapon for one man to kill another? I'll be interested to see the answer.

[Elgee]

The big question of this i think will come with the issue of gateways during the Seanchan assault on the Tower. It seems almost certain that without the rebels involvement Tar Valon would fall, yet would not creating a gateway for an army to attack another army not be creating a weapon for one man to kill another?

 

I've always found that wording ... interesting ...  ;D

[RAND AL THOR]

Exactly. The 3 oaths are just full of loopholes, lies, loopholes, lies, some more loopholes, and a whole lot more loopholes. ;D

[Elgee]

But it does come in right handy at times.

 

For instance: Amyrlin to AS: I command you to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ... works, as long as the AS is not BA.

 

The BA hunters (the Sitters in the Tower) used the oathrod as well.  It's good, as long as you make sure the AS does still have the oaths in place, and you stick to yes/no questions.

[Luckers]

Here's a question for you then--why are sisters bound to write the truth? They are, we've seen that in their thoughts, yet the oath they speak is just that... 'to speak no word that is not true'.

 

:)

 

Absolutisms don't really work in real life.

[Elgee]

Interesting.

 

I would surmise because writing is communicating, like speaking. One can "speak" through writing. Thoughts, on the other hand, are not.

 

 

[trakand_01]

I'm not sure they are - in... I forget which book it is, Verin is doing her 'work' in the Aiel tents and the wise ones come speak to her, and tell her something (again i forget what) but forbid her from telling Rand. She agrees she will not tell him but immediately thinks to herself 'a note, perhaps?' and that he needs to know.

 

I surmised from that that she could write a note to tell him. Or perhaps that was just because she had only promised not to TELL him, meaning verbally.

[Luckers]

Indeed--she promised to the Wise Ones that she would say nothing to him, which allows her to write a note. She would not be writing any lies, nor would she have lied to the Wise Ones, thus there is no violation in her oath.

 

That being said, i would think that the same logic would apply to writin lies, but no--Moiraine, and later Pevara and Seaine show this to be impossible.

[Elgee]

Not applicable to "speak no word that is not true" in the sense that she is not planning on communicating any type of lie to him, but applicable in that she is trying to get around her promise not to tell him something. A promise which would not hold her, if her exact word was "tell". She would then not have promised not to WRITE anything to him, and would therefor not be breaking any oath.

 

(It was about Katarina escaping, by the way.)

 

edit: what Luckers said  ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Look at human history.  Look at your own lives.

 

No matter what any of us thought we were getting into when we chose a profession, what we actually do is 90% other stuff and 10% what we really thought we would be doing.  Administration.  Paperwork.  Ego massaging, and the ordinary politics and busy-ness of everyday living.  Those dominate everyone's day.

 

The AS, like any power bloc, will spend a great amount of every day attempting to acquire status, first within their Ajah, and then within the Tower.  Some part of nearly each day will be spent on 'Tower business', or preserving the status quo and the overall AS place within all societies.  Only the tiniest fraction of any Ajah's time will be available to do the things each Ajah was, ostensibly, created to do.

 

And, never forget, this series was intended to be a trilogy.  We were never supposed to have time enough to wonder about how the author had organized things, nor find the obvious holes and weaknesses in that organization.

 

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Loopholes, loopholes, loopholes!!!!

 

When Beonin started to lie in Book 11, she started to gasp and splutter and the words didn't come out. If you write a lie, does your hand start shaking badly then?

 

Personally, I think that it depends on the sister's view. If she thinks that writing a lie is a violation then it probably will be for her. We can see how much a sister's viewpoint matters by just observing Beonin. She convinces herself that Egwene is no longer Amyrlin (though effectively she still IS until she is stilled and deposed) and she manages to break her vows just because HER viewpoint changed. This gives a whole load more LOOPHOLES!

 

 

And, never forget, this series was intended to be a trilogy.  We were never supposed to have time enough to wonder about how the author had organized things, nor find the obvious holes and weaknesses in that organization.

 

 

 

This continues to amaze me. I still don't get how on earth RJ (whose planning is excellent) made such an error. Originally meant to be a trilogy, how could he make it 4 times as long? That would really be typical of a poor writer but this is not applicable to RJ at all so I am truly clueless why the book ended up going so much longer when he intended it to be shorter. I would have preferred a compression of the latter books. A 8 or 9 book series may have been better, in my opinion.

[DemandredFO]

It depends on the sister as to whether she attacks darkfriends or foresaken.  Just look at Ebin, he got killed at the cleansing because Daigion was dithering.

On another point, I agree that if the rebels invade the Seanchan occupied tower by gateway they will encounter problems.  If they place the gateway in the Tower that will risk killing someone and for most that would probably prevent the gateway from forming.  If they put it inside the walls but not in the tower that would likely defeat the purpose.  This, I think will force a crisis.

[RAND AL THOR]

If they place the gateway in the Tower that will risk killing someone and for most that would probably prevent the gateway from forming.

 

??? ??? ???

Sammael opens a gateway once when he is leaving a meeting with Graendal. The gateway slices a person in half but that doesn't affect the gateway itself.