The Choedan Kal

[Aztain]

I'm guessing there have been numerous other topics on this but I'm to lazy to search for one (so I thought I'd make one)

 

Okay Well  The Choedan Kal are ter'angreal that allow the user to acces the two most powerful sa"angreal ever, Theres one for  a man and one for a woman but I've been wondering that since these were made during the age of legends before the breaking how come they weren't used to fight the dark one? or for that matter clense saddinIn the ninth book Winter's Heart Rand and Nynaeve removed the taint, so why couldn't they have been used to Destroy the Dark Oneback in the age of Legends? or clean saddin and prevent the breaking?

 

Well I've thought about this and hopefully I can get some answers

[Asmo]

Because using them could tear the world apart. Lews Therin regarded them too dangerous so he tried to seal the Bore instead. Then the Shadow invaded the lands where the access keys were made, so they were lost to the Light until Rand rediscovered them in Rhuidean.

[Aztain]

Okay but Rand and Nynaeve managed to use them so wouldn't a circle of thirteen male and thirteen female Aes Sedai be safe to use them?

 

Lewis Therrin also said that they were never tested

[Asmo]

A circle doesn't really matter. If a person can't use an angreal or sa'angreal, even if he's linked he still wouldn't be able to channel through it. However, that's not really the point. The point is that the Choedan Kal were dangerous. A single one can definately destroy a continent, the two together may be able to destroy the world. People in the Age of Legends would want to try them out by putting them into more casual uses, each separately and then together, than something drastic such as defeating the Dark One or cleansing Saidin. However, that chance was lost when the Shadow crippled the lands the access keys were held in, and they were lost, so noone really had a chance to use them no matter how you look at it. In the end, it was more of a matter of "they couldn't" rather than "they didn't want to".

[balefire]

They were originally made for the purpose of sealing the bore but during the manufacturing process, Sammael (or was it Bel'al?) attacked the factory where they were being made and all access keys were lost/destroyed except for the ones in Rhuiden. And of course, there was the danger of breaking the world apart with that much power. Lews Therin wasn't in favor of this plan, he wanted to seal the bore with a 6 male 7 female aes Sedai circle but the female aes sedai considered it a too dangerous plan and refused to cooperate, waiting for the completion of the cheoden Kal.

 

Since all access keys were believed to be destroyed/lost, all hopes of sealing the bore with it were nullified, let alone cleansing the taint. Besides, you must remember that rand was told the exact method of cleansing the taint by the Finns. For anyone to figure that method out in the AOL in the midst of all chaos was going to be a very hard task, especially considering the fact that there was lot of tension between the male and female aes sedai before lews therin wen ahead with his 113 companions. The aes sedai camp was divided between males and females, with all female sedai of noticeable strength refusing to even talk to the males.

 

There was an online robert jordan story about the strike at shayol ghul that tells about this in detail. It was at this address, but its been removed.

 

http://www.tor.com/shayol.html

[Jehaine]

There was an online robert jordan story about the strike at shayol ghul that tells about this in detail. It was at this address, but its been removed.

 

http://www.tor.com/shayol.html

 

http://home.wanadoo.nl/nynaeve/shayolguhl.html

 

It can be found there now.

 

Carry on ^^;

[billoumm7]

Okay Well  The Choedan Kal are ter'angreal t

first off the CK arent ter' angreal, the access keys are the ter' angreal... and seccond in the age of legands even the dreadlords and forsaken wee afraid to try and use the CK not knowing what would happen... (how far into the books are you?)

[Aztain]

I'm about 1/3 done the tenth book, I thought the Choedan Kal were the ter'angreal. In the ninth book ( or was it the eigth?) When Mordin called a meeting-of-the-Forsaken And they all found out that Rand had them and that he planned to cleaqn saddin some of the Forsaken had thought that they were destroyed.....which wouldn't make sense since the make sa'angreal is near Carithen right out there in the open

 

 

meh i guess  i was wrong

[Jehaine]

The way i understood that, it was that the access keys were ter'angreal made to safely control the sa'angreal. If i recall correctly, even Lanfear tried to get Rand away from the Cairhienian one when they came past the digging site. Even if she was posing as Lady Selene at the time, it doesn't change the fact that she was practically begging him to not get close to the edge.

 

Without those ter'angreal, the Choedan Kal would simply be death traps to whomever tried to use them, and blast straight through their limits of however much of saidin or saidar they are able to hold.

[Corbett]

Because of their strength the only safe way to use them was with the acess keys. Also even if they had been able to use the CK they would have had no counter evil with which to destroy the taint on the Source. It was the evil of Shadar Logoth the destroyed the taint and that evil did not come around until the Trolloc Wars, so in the Age of Legends there was no way known to rid the source of the taint. The Aes Sedai that did it for the Eye of the World died in the process and if they had died while channeling that amount of the power it is likely they would have destroyed the world.

[nashdude]

Because of their strength the only safe way to use them was with the acess keys. Also even if they had been able to use the CK they would have had no counter evil with which to destroy the taint on the Source. It was the evil of Shadar Logoth the destroyed the taint and that evil did not come around until the Trolloc Wars, so in the Age of Legends there was no way known to rid the source of the taint. The Aes Sedai that did it for the Eye of the World died in the process and if they had died while channeling that amount of the power it is likely they would have destroyed the world.

 

My thoughts exactly...

[MatrixM]

I'm guessing there have been numerous other topics on this but I'm to lazy to search for one (so I thought I'd make one)

 

Okay Well  The Choedan Kal are ter'angreal that allow the user to acces the two most powerful sa"angreal ever, Theres one for  a man and one for a woman but I've been wondering that since these were made during the age of legends before the breaking how come they weren't used to fight the dark one? or for that matter clense saddinIn the ninth book Winter's Heart Rand and Nynaeve removed the taint, so why couldn't they have been used to Destroy the Dark Oneback in the age of Legends? or clean saddin and prevent the breaking?

 

Well I've thought about this and hopefully I can get some answers

The Choedan Kal are the sa'angreal not the ter'angreal. They weren't used to fight because they couldn't be used. The ter'angreal were absolutely necessary to use the Choedan Kal, only they were lost in the lands captured by the shadow. I'm not even sure if the Choedan Kal was complete yet. They didn't use it to cleanse Saidin because they thought it couldn't be cleansed, like so many others. They managed to cleanse the Eye of The World but everyone who did it died as a result. You also need incredibly strong people to be able to use the sa'angreal anyways. Also, i doubt anything can destroy the Dark One.

[Luckers]

first off the CK arent ter' angreal, the access keys are the ter' angreal... and seccond in the age of legands even the dreadlords and forsaken wee afraid to try and use the CK not knowing what would happen... (how far into the books are you?)

 

Actually they would have used them--likely they would have tested them first, LTT implies thats more than possible--but they had no idea what the Access Keys were. Oh, they knew of the Choedan Kal, but they didn't know the keys were in their hands. Three attemps were made by the Light to recover them from Sammael's territory, and all three failed--thats why in the end with Latra Posae Decume still blocking him with the fateful concord (the agreement amongst female Aes Sedai of significant strength to take part in the sealing), and Sammael, Be'lal and Demandred all three making massive incursions into the remaining Light-held land, Lews Therin was forced to act without women.

[MatrixM]

Oops, i probably should have read the previous posts before posting myself.

[Aztain]

Well That helped, Anyway you said you doubted anything could defeat the dark one, well isn't Tarmon Gai'don the last fight against the dark one?

[RAND AL THOR]

Aztain, if you re-read the entire series several times, you may have less questions to ask. ;)

 

Tarmon Gaidon is the end of THIS age. All ages come and go so another TG will come with the turning of the wheel(but who de hell cares about that!)

[billoumm7]

Tarmon Gaidon is the end of THIS age. All ages come and go so another TG will come with the turning of the wheel

 

that was only a speculation made by rands friend (going blank right now so i forget his name... the guy in Chairian who was murdered.) nothing ever mentions any other TGs so how the hell is there supposed to be another one? and the bore wasn't opened untill the age of legends so all that is BS no offence...

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

i recommend you read the first paragraph of chapter one of every WOT book.

 

particularly that part that says 'even myth is LONG FORGOTTEN.'

 

 

you're not seriously going to argue about the entire concept(cyclical time) of the series are you?

[billoumm7]

ITS CRYPTIC, NOT LITERAL... There would have been a scar on the world from another bore no? it is the the strongest use of the power, no? it is what keeps the darkone at bay, and its impossable for everything to happen te same way after all all those other worlds in TGH are proof of that...

[Corbett]

Are you kidding me? The turning of the wheel is a literal thing. Robert Jordan has said it"The name comes out of Hindu mythology, where there is a belief that time is a wheel. Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible"(from an interview on cnn), the constant rantings of Ishmael point to it. Even in TGH when Rand is reliving all of those lives, I HAVE WON AGAIN LEWS THERIN, obviously points to it. The scar is the bore, as has been speculated on many topics is the fact that Rand may have to destroy the bore and teh prison to "clear the rubble" before he begins to rebuild, rather than making a patch there should be a completle new prison. And alsoasssuming every age is 3000+ years and the world is broken at least once every turning i think that it would be fairly easy to hide your "scar". The other worlds represent different possible choices that people make. And according to that if there is a world for every possible choice ever made then the there has to be an exact replica of the world every turning of the wheel. Also the darkone intends to break the wheel so that every coming age is new and he can remake it in his own image. If there was no wheel and he was present at the moment of creation when he was imprisond what in the world is he making up. What SOLID evidence points to the turning of the wheely to be cryptic is see none.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think one of the Forsaken who was a philosopher said that he thought there were many times when the Dragon was reborn (over and over) and some of the battles resulted in the Dark One winning and others with the Dragon winning, so it was an age old battle.  Even the Dark One, who is timeless as it were and has been around for all the turnings of the wheel (there is only one Dark One) refers to the entity as "my ancient enemy, Dragon" which basically tells me that their fight has been going on for time endless.

 

so Tarmon Gai'don is not the FINAL fight, excepting that it's the final battle in THIS age, which will give way to another Age and that is why Rand is trying to do what he can to ensure that the following Age actually has something to look forward to.

 

 

So another question I had is...

 

...did the makers of the Choedan Kal make a sa'angreal with unlimited power?  Or does the Choedan Kal have the same barriers that every other angreal/sa'angreal (except Callandor) has that buffers the channeler from drawing in too much power?

 

I ask because someone like Aviendha has an angreal that allows her to safely handle about two or three times as much of the Power as she could without it.  Her body, with the aid of the angreal, is able to process and handle the flows at that level.  I assume that if she drew all that power without the angreal she would simply burn to a cinder on the spot.

 

So is it that there IS a buffer on the Choedan Kal, but the amount of the One Power being funneled through one person (without the access keys) would simply annihilate them buffer or no buffer?  Is that why the ter'angreal were created...to sort of allow the channeler's body to siphon the immense level of Power coming through them?

 

i'm just curious why the access keys were necessary when most sa'angreals allow a person to channel enough of the Power to normally kill themselves without the aid, if that makes sense.

[Avery]

i'm just curious why the access keys were necessary when most sa'angreals allow a person to channel enough of the Power to normally kill themselves without the aid, if that makes sense.

 

The obvious answer is that they were necessary because the sa'angreal themselves are enormous statues, un-relocatable for all intents and purposes. They connect the channeler to the sa'angreal. As to whether the ter'angreal affect how the sa'angreal are used, I couldn't comment.

 

so Tarmon Gai'don is not the FINAL fight, excepting that it's the final battle in THIS age, which will give way to another Age and that is why Rand is trying to do what he can to ensure that the following Age actually has something to look forward to.

 

I believe it's actually the final battle of this TURN of the Wheel. I believe 7 ages = 1 turn?

 

 

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

well, like said above, the ter'angreal gives the benefit of mobility.  in addition, it's possible that the amount of labour needed to build a buffer for the CK is MUCH greater than it is to build one for the ter'angreal.

 

I believe it's actually the final battle of this TURN of the Wheel. I believe 7 ages = 1 turn?

 

i think likewise ;)

[CUBAREY]

I believe it's actually the final battle of this TURN of the Wheel. I believe 7 ages = 1 turn?

 

 

i think likewise

 

Why? Its only the end of the Third Age. There was a battle at the end of the Second Age, there will be a battle at the end of the Third Age. There probably was not a Battle at the end of the First Age but we know nothing that would indicate that battles do or do not take place at the end of Ages Four to Seven.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

final battle against the dark one of this turning.  thats not to say that there won't be the aftermath of TG and other conflicts between people spanning the other ages.  the fourth age could be spent mostly recovering from the effects of TG and be occupied with wars to reestablish the old powers(seanchan, the aiel, white tower, etc.) and to remove them, the fifth age would deal with the recession of channelling and associated 'witchhunts', the sixth age would be spent on the resurgence of religion, whether or not the DO and creator actually exist and the associated holy wars, and the seventh age .... okay, i've run of out of ideas...but you get the point now?  each one of those scenarios has the potential to  cripple the world(and i'm sure you can include a nuclear war in there somewhere).

 

 

not every age has to deal with the dark one, assuming our age is the first age, we don't spend alot of time rounding up darkfriends and watching out for trollocs, do we?