The Choedan Kal

[CUBAREY]

Why would you claim our age to the the First Age, I myself would think it to be 6th or 7th if our world is the same one as in Randland, its possible that we live in a totally different World with its own timeline with only the smallest of historical coincidences with Randland.

 

Now if we are the same world then we have no trollic attacks but have you heard about witch trials, the Inquisition (and its like in other religions) demons?  Seems to me the present age has thought out and fought Darkones for the most of its time.

 

If an Age is at least 3000 odd years then all your conflicts could occur in the 4th Age. Remember 3000 years would encompass from the Third Kingdom in Egypt to the present. Also note that the War after Arthur Hawkwings death took about 150 odd years and totally exhausted humanty (at the end even the Martial arts had declined drasticly).  Now, you may be correct but there is nothing in the books which would indicate that the Third Ages battle will be the last for this Turning, indeed, it could be that in every age except for the First their is a battle with the DO, we simply do not have enough information to base our opinions on (and I think that this is how RJ wanted it). We have many facts about the present Age, we have shetchy information about the Age of Legends, and at most a few stories and myths about other Ages.

 

Also at least as to the DO his existance is a given in the series. We have POV's where the DO is directly communicating with  certain Choosen.  Moreover, given the storyline the Creator must also be pretty much admitted to have existed. 

 

 

 

[Aztain]

Indeed!  :-X

[Asmo]

The Dark One is a being outside the Pattern, so he does not get "recycled" with each turn of the Wheel. The fact that he's still there means that he has never broken free in any turning of the Wheel in any of the parallel worlds so far - probably because there wasn't enough chaos in the world to completely release his prison - but he has never been utterly defeated and destroyed - which would indicate that even when the Light won, chaos still remained. The outcome of the so-called Final Battle will not depend on which side prevails, rather, on what state the world is reduced to. If chaos reigns, faith is lost, and people hate and fear each other, the Dark One wins, but if hope is maintained and humanity perseveres in people's souls, the Light wins. That's why it's not important to the Dark One whether the Dragon lives or dies, as long as he produces chaos; which he does. That's why Cadsuane feels it's so important that Rand regains the part of his humanity that he has lost and suppressed before Tarmon Gaidon. So no, whatever people call the Last Battle, the true final conflict that will either destroy the Dark One or set him free will forever change the Pattern. And I don't think Rand will do it. I think he'll manage to defeat the Dark One in some manner, but that will be the extent of what he can do, and then we'll return to the "there are no beginnings nor endings..." motive, which implies that the Dark One cannot win or lose completely, because whatever happens, humanity will never be in a state of complete chaos or complete order, and that's what the struggle between "Light" and "Dark" represents.

 

Well, these are my thoughts anyway. Following this trail of thought, it's much easier to explain why Ishamael was so keen on turning Rand to the Dark and is still trying to do that - much more chaos than just killing him... we know why the Dark One wants the Forsaken to use Balefire, why it's of paramount importance for Rand to surpass his internal problems and regain his emotions. We know why "The Lord of Chaos" must rule, and not "The Great Lord of the Dark".

[Lord Nik]

what about all the "I have won again Lews Therin" in book 2. It seems that the light has never really won before at all! But then again neither has the dark one because when he breaks free, Everything forever gets remade in his image. And that hasn't happened. So the Dark One has never won, And the light has never one. wtf

[CUBAREY]

The outcome of the so-called Final Battle will not depend on which side prevails, rather, on what state the world is reduced to. If chaos reigns, faith is lost, and people hate and fear each other, the Dark One wins, but if hope is maintained and humanity perseveres in people's souls, the Light wins. That's why it's not important to the Dark One whether the Dragon lives or dies, as long as he produces chaos;

 

Ah, nope. If the DO wins then its game, set, match to the Do. If he wins at this time, in this world then he reinvents reality in his likeness now and for the future, moreover, if he wins in this world he wins in all worlds. Now if the light wins there are a mix of possibilities. The light has never been able to totally destroy the DO (and in fact it may be impossible to destroy him. Sometimes as in the Age of Legends the lights victory is very limited, the DO is patched back  into his prison but the patch is weak and decays over time. Moreover, before he is defeated the DO greatly effects reality as in the Age od Legends he taints Saiden. Now, sine in the beginning of the second Age people were not even aware of the DO's existance, there must be times that the Lights victory is amost comlete, the DO's prison is remade and so strong that his presence is almost not  felt in the world at all. There are probably times when the Lights victory is somewhere between the two. However, the Light (up to now has always one to a lesser or greaster extent.

 

Your views on Rand's importance is also, in my opinion, incorrect. Rand's Presence is necessary but not sufficent for the Light to win TG. If he dies before or does not appear at TG then the DO will automaticly win. Now the DO has complicated goals. His ultimate goal is to be freed and recreate reality in his own image. But he also would like the "cherry on top" of his victory of having the Lights champion turn to the Dark. Moreover, he knows that the more chaos is created at the end of this Age the better chances he has of ultimate victory in the next age even if he looses in this age.  So The DO can absolutely win but he also sees the advantages of creating havoc even if he loses this time since he knows he will always have another chance to win.

 

 

what about all the "I have won again Lews Therin" in book 2. It seems that the light has never really won before at all! But then again neither has the dark one because when he breaks free, Everything forever gets remade in his image. And that hasn't happened. So the Dark One has never won, And the light has never one. wtf

 

Remember the DO is a lying Liar who lies.

 

[Lord Nik]

Remember the DO is a lying Liar who lies.

point taken :p

[Luckers]

Why would you claim our age to the the First Age, I myself would think it to be 6th or 7th if our world is the same one as in Randland, its possible that we live in a totally different World with its own timeline with only the smallest of historical coincidences with Randland.

 

RJ has already stated that our world is a part of that turning. Beyond that there are stories from our age surviving into the third age--stories of the Age of Legends, and the age before--our age. Of Mother Teresa, and Queen Elizabeth. Of America and Moscow and the cold war. Of Ann Landers, and more besides.

 

Remember the DO is a lying Liar who lies.

 

Side point. RJ stated that Ishamael was the lying liar that lies. The Dark One, for all that he has been named Father of Lies, has not to date actually lied. Not once.

[Bob T Dwarf]

RJ has already stated that our world is a part of that turning. Beyond that there are stories from our age surviving into the third age--stories of the Age of Legends, and the age before--our age. Of Mother Teresa, and Queen Elizabeth. Of America and Moscow and the cold war. Of Ann Landers, and more besides.

 

Remember the DO is a lying Liar who lies.

 

Side point. RJ stated that Ishamael was the lying liar that lies. The Dark One, for all that he has been named Father of Lies, has not to date actually lied. Not once.

 

Taking these in order -

 

Our 'Age' contains a mythos concerning the god Perun.  Ya s'pose that comes from a distorted legend about the actions of a man named Perrin, maybe?

 

Our 'Age' contains a myth about the god Odin, complete with 2 ravens, a single eye, etc.  Sound like anyone we know from the Third Age?

 

The name Shai'tan arose in the AoL.  Does Satan sound at all similar?

 

Point being that if such legends arising from events in the Second and Third Ages can survive all the way round to the First again, then it's equally possible for Fourth, Fifth or Sixth Age legends to survive into the Third Age.  We can make no certain determination about what number represents our own 'Age.'

 

There are many forms of lying.  Not all of them are direct.  It is true that nothing we have 'heard' the DO say can be proven to be a lie.  But, then, we don't get to 'hear' everything the DO has said.

 

What kind of a recruiting poster would it be if it read: "Join the Dark.  Become immortal ( unless you tick off the big guy, or somebody zots you with balefire )."

 

That sort of appeal only works if you omit the fine print.  By failing to be upfront with its minions, the DO lied by omission.  There are probably myriad other ways it lied, as well... we just haven't gotten to see them.

[Avery]

The name Shai'tan arose in the AoL.  Does Satan sound at all similar?

 

Unrelated but interesting: Shaitan (without the apostrophe, and sometimes "Shaytan") is quite simply the devil in islamic culture.

[Luckers]

Except these deal with specific stories, relating to specific individuals, and specific events. Mosk and Merc with their lances of fire, Lenn flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire, Sayla walking amongst the stars, Martarese mother of the wonderous ind, Elsbet, Queen of All, Anla the wise councilor... too exact, dealing with speicific people. Myths survive, this degree of myths, and relics (such as the mercadez symbol) do not.

 

There are many forms of lying.  Not all of them are direct.  It is true that nothing we have 'heard' the DO say can be proven to be a lie.  But, then, we don't get to 'hear' everything the DO has said.

 

What kind of a recruiting poster would it be if it read: "Join the Dark.  Become immortal ( unless you tick off the big guy, or somebody zots you with balefire )."

 

That sort of appeal only works if you omit the fine print.  By failing to be upfront with its minions, the DO lied by omission.  There are probably myriad other ways it lied, as well... we just haven't gotten to see them.

 

Need i remind you, the Dark One has never said any of that, to our knowledge, He has not lied by omission--the Dorsaken all have apparently recieved immortality, and all other characters we know of have only assumed immortality is the end game, none indicate the Dark One suggested it.

[Aztain]

I'm not sure if i'm correct on this, but just as a point. Didn't the portal stone just show Rand alternative lives? Like where he hears the voice " I have won again Lewis Therrin" Isn't that life he saw just a possible life? It never said that they were his past lives....anyway it was Ishammel who said that right? after Rand cut him off from the DO in book 1 he was no longer protected from the taint, he went mad and thought he WAS the DO....

[Bob T Dwarf]

Except these deal with specific stories, relating to specific individuals, and specific events. Mosk and Merc with their lances of fire, Lenn flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire, Sayla walking amongst the stars, Martarese mother of the wonderous ind, Elsbet, Queen of All, Anla the wise councilor... too exact, dealing with speicific people. Myths survive, this degree of myths, and relics (such as the mercadez symbol) do not.

...

Need i remind you, the Dark One has never said any of that, to our knowledge, He has not lied by omission--the Dorsaken all have apparently recieved immortality, and all other characters we know of have only assumed immortality is the end game, none indicate the Dark One suggested it.

 

Yes, they're stories relating to specific events and specific individuals.  So what?  That doesn't mean they had to happen ( relatively speaking ) yesterday.  Archeologists are finding burial sites from the last Ice Age.  Complete with clothing, weapons and other artifacts.  Fragmentary stuff from even earlier is found all the time.

 

BWB - about Asmodean - It is reliably reported that his reason for dedicating his soul to the Shadow was the promise of immortality.

 

The only being who could credibly make such a promise is the DO.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

The only being who could credibly make such a promise is the DO.

 

complete and utter nonsense.

 

Christians believe in an afterlife, yet, most of them haven't [claimed to have] spoken to god.  why would they believe it if they weren't told by the only credible source?

[CUBAREY]

Christians believe in an afterlife, yet, most of them haven't [claimed to have] spoken to god.  why would they believe it if they weren't told by the only credible source?

 

Well, most of us have spoken to god (prayed) its that few have claimed that he has verbally spoken back ;)

 

It should be remembered that Ishy was not only so crazy that he believed he was the DO but that he was known as Bathmum (sp) which was another name for the Dark One and that many people confused him for the DO (including Rand). Moreover, we know that at different times during the Thitrd AGe Ishy was free in the world. So that the offer of immortality to Third Age Darkfriends may have been made by Ishy and not the DO (whether or not he had been authorized by the DO to make such an offer).

[Bob T Dwarf]

But, Asmo wasn't a Third Age DF.  He'd been to the Pit of Doom.  He'd 'met' the DO.  Personally made a compact with the DO.  Part of that compact was the promise of immortality.  The DO lied by omission in making that promise.

[Beli Tsar]

Except Master Dwarf, you forget the fact that Asmodean made any such promise by the DO null and void when he began teaching Rand so he technically didn't "lie" since I'm sure it was written in the fine print somewhere that immortality was for those who served him, and not those who served for a lenghty time and then aided his enemies no matter how forced the conditions

[Aztain]

Hey CUBAREY, how far in the books are you? "Ishy" thought he WAS the DO, I cant remeber what book it's in ( I think the third) Where Perrin was in the wolf dream and Hopper showed him Lanfear and Ishy where it was strongly implied the he thought he was the DO

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

But, Asmo wasn't a Third Age DF.  He'd been to the Pit of Doom.  He'd 'met' the DO.  Personally made a compact with the DO.  Part of that compact was the promise of immortality.  The DO lied by omission in making that promise.

 

what account of the oathtaking do we have where we see the DO promise someone anything?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Are you seriously suggesting that any of the Forsaken would trust anyone other than the DO on such a matter?

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Are you seriously suggesting that any of the Forsaken would trust anyone other than the DO on such a matter?

 

um...yes?

 

humans are fallible.  the forsaken are obviously very human(seeing how fallible they are)

 

humans will also believe heresay(not entirely sure if i used the term right...you get the point though), validating my earlier post.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If we were talking about ordinary humans, I'd agree with you.  You're not.  You're talking about the Forsaken, here.

 

LoC - Chapter 6 - Sam's meeting with Graendal -

... So, she wanted them to stand together, did she?  "Then link with me.  The pair of us linked would be more than a match for al'Thor.  Let that be the beginning of our new standing together."  His scar tightened as he smiled at the sudden blankness on her face.  The link had to come from her, but with only two of them, she would have to give him control and trust him to choose when to end it.  "So, it seems we will go on as before."  There had never been any question of it, really; trust was no part of any of them. ...

[MatrixM]

I'm not sure if i'm correct on this, but just as a point. Didn't the portal stone just show Rand alternative lives? Like where he hears the voice " I have won again Lewis Therrin" Isn't that life he saw just a possible life? It never said that they were his past lives....anyway it was Ishammel who said that right? after Rand cut him off from the DO in book 1 he was no longer protected from the taint, he went mad and thought he WAS the DO....

Ishmael has been mad for a while. I don't think he was protected from the taint since the sealing and besides, he uses the True Power. You're right about the portal stone but i think it was the Dark One since Ishmael can't talk through telepathy.

Also, i'm pretty sure that Robert Jordan confirmed that the First Age is ours.

[Aztain]

Yeah okay thats what i thought ( although I was wrong about Ishmael :P)

[Aztain]

I've been thinking. since Rand has been suffering a "sickness"{ of a sort I expected him to mess up a little while clensing the source, you know like leave a little of the taint in himself or something but although he claims that the "sickness" makes it harder to weave stuff i just thought something would go wrong afterward .

[MatrixM]

Sorry but, what exactly are you saying?