Why doesn't Demandred understand......

[RAND AL THOR]

Early in book 6, when Demandred steps out from behind a pillar after watching Elayne in Tel'aran'rhiod, he says "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule' to himself. Immediately afterwards he muses that he doesn't understand WHY it had to be so.

 

I think it is generally agreed that LOC does not refer to Rand. I'm positive it is an instruction to create as much chaos as possible. This idea is strongly supported in book 11 where Semirhage tells Suroth that the Imperial Family is dead. After that Semirhage adds 'Let the Lord of Chaos Rule,' hence signifying that the murder of the seanchan royal family complies with the DO's command.

 

Now my question is, why doesn't Demandred understand the order? By spreading chaos (which the forsaken  successfully did) Randland is in a big mess and ill prepared for TG. Is Demandred so stupid that he doesn't understand that? ???

[bRANDan]

Or Demandred could think that he himself might be able to set up some kind of order that favors the DO.

[Cybertrolloc]

It's important to remember the timeline. LoC covers like June to late December, slightly more than the next 5 books combined.

 

I think what Demandred doesn't understand is why they have to let Rand live. Create Chaos: the Forsaken can just do that, and Semi is a good example of the kinds of things they could easily do. Also at the time is the starting of the Black Tower which could get troublesome. A lot of the light's setbacks haven't happened yet and aren't really foreseeable to us--we know more about some things than Dem and vice versa ;)

[Asmo]

Eh, why does everyone assume that the Lord of Chaos isn't the Dragon Reborn? Rand is doing a pretty good job at being that guy...

 

Besides, murdering the Imperial family did in fact remove an obstacle from Rand's path, since they were obviously a bunch of morons who thought that Rand must neccessarily obey them.

 

But I doubt it's that simple.

[RAND AL THOR]

Eh, why does everyone assume that the Lord of Chaos isn't the Dragon Reborn? Rand is doing a pretty good job at being that guy...

 

 

Much of the chaos in Randland is not directly through Rand.

 

1) The Breaking of the White Tower-apparently due to the fact that Siuan hid that she was already involved with the Dragon. But we all know that Elaida's personal ambition was more significant there. Furthermore, if Siuan was deposed due to the fact that she already knew of the Dragon, then it could have happened with the full Hall. Instead, Elaida quickly acts with the minimum number of sitters needed to depose Elaida. I cannot say the reason for the White Tower breaking is Rand.

 

2) The Salidar Rebels- Aran'gar is responsible for keeping the rebellion together. She is spreading further chaos by doing that.

 

3) Mesaana is responsible for the Tower crumbling from within. This has severely weakened the Forces of the Light.

 

4) Semirhage destroyed the Imperial family. She did it with the intent of making Suroth the Empress. That would mean that a darkfriend rules over the seanchan and that would have been disastrous for Rand. Luckily Tuon didn't die and Semirhage's scheme was not completed. But if it HAD been completed then ....more chaos still.

 

5) Asmodean- marked Couladin with the Dragons. Utterly disastrous for Rand. This was one of the most successful plots made by the Dark Side. The Shaido breaking away due to this was disastrous to the light in many ways.

 

6) There are others but they are not as significant.

 

We also see how the cities where the Forsaken rule(d) were filled with miserable people who had lost hope. By booting out the Forsaken, Rand returned the atmosphere in those cities (Cairhien/Tear/Illian/possibly Caemlyn) to normal. He stopped

 

Rand stopped the civil was in Cairhien.

 

Rand practically established a temporary alliance between Tear and Illian (which may become more or less permanent).

 

Rand cleansed the source, hence preventing male channelers from going mad and wreaking havoc.

 

Rand united the Aiel who had been squabbling amongst themselves for thousands of years (there we have some 'chaos' ended  :) )

 

 

 

Overall, The Dragon has solved more problems than he created and many of the problems existing were not related to him. From all this, it is more or less clear that 'Lord of Chaos' does not refer to any one person (much less Rand) and was instead a direct order to the Forsaken to create as many problems in Randland as possible.

 

This is an extremely strategic move. The Forces of the Light become weak without a powerful alliance to hold them together. This is the best thing that the DO can do before TG to ensure his victory.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Indeed. The Forsaken are ultimately trying to make the Light be distracted with  so many problems that they cant prepare properly for Tarmon Gaidon.

 

The Black Tower seems to be another successful move on the Shadows part. I mean, Taim and those Ashaman are definitely Darkfriends, otherwise they wouldnt find the saying "let the Lord of Chaos" so funny in that situation. At the end of KoD when Taim says remember the old saying, that was my favourite Taim moment. He is stood in front of many Aes Sedai, fully in control of what is happening, standing there waving the black flag and the Aes Sedai dont even know it.

[RAND AL THOR]

Indeed. The Forsaken are ultimately trying to make the Light be distracted with  so many problems that they cant prepare properly for Tarmon Gaidon.

 

The Black Tower seems to be another successful move on the Shadows part. I mean, Taim and those Ashaman are definitely Darkfriends, otherwise they wouldnt find the saying "let the Lord of Chaos" so funny in that situation. At the end of KoD when Taim says remember the old saying, that was my favourite Taim moment. He is stood in front of many Aes Sedai, fully in control of what is happening, standing there waving the black flag and the Aes Sedai dont even know it.

 

Exactly.

[benr]

 

Much of the chaos in Randland is not directly through Rand.

 

1) The Breaking of the White Tower-apparently due to the fact that Siuan hid that she was already involved with the Dragon. But we all know that Elaida's personal ambition was more significant there. Furthermore, if Siuan was deposed due to the fact that she already knew of the Dragon, then it could have happened with the full Hall. Instead, Elaida quickly acts with the minimum number of sitters needed to depose Elaida. I cannot say the reason for the White Tower breaking is Rand.

 

2) The Salidar Rebels- Aran'gar is responsible for keeping the rebellion together. She is spreading further chaos by doing that.

 

3) Mesaana is responsible for the Tower crumbling from within. This has severely weakened the Forces of the Light.

 

4) Semirhage destroyed the Imperial family. She did it with the intent of making Suroth the Empress. That would mean that a darkfriend rules over the seanchan and that would have been disastrous for Rand. Luckily Tuon didn't die and Semirhage's scheme was not completed. But if it HAD been completed then ....more chaos still.

 

5) Asmodean- marked Couladin with the Dragons. Utterly disastrous for Rand. This was one of the most successful plots made by the Dark Side. The Shaido breaking away due to this was disastrous to the light in many ways.

 

 

 

You are right that the intention of the Forsaken was to spread chaos; I think chaos has resulted from much of Rand's actions, too, despite the lessening he has tried to do.  However:

 

nos. 1-3 above all refer to the situation with the AS and the White Tower; the end result of this will be a unified tower with a strong AS, saved from destruction by the invading Seanchen because a good portion of the sisters are out of the tower and can counter attack.

 

4. You already note the failure of Semi's ultimate goals; the collapse of the Seanchen empire will have little to no impact at TG, and Tuon will ally with Rand to add the displaced Seanchen army to the forces of the Light.

 

5.  This is your best example.  Strange that Asmo accomplished it, as the seemingly "weakest" link for the Forsaken.  Even so, the Shaido threat has dissipated, and maybe even provided another source of resources for the Light at TG.

 

The Forsaken can't seem to get anything right.  Going back to your idea in another thread that Moridin should have gotten rid of Rand instead of helping him get rid of Sammael - that might have been a better idea.  Sometimes the simplest plans are best.

[RAND AL THOR]

Agreed benr. However:

 

 

nos. 1-3 above all refer to the situation with the AS and the White Tower; the end result of this will be a unified tower with a strong AS, saved from destruction by the invading Seanchen because a good portion of the sisters are out of the tower and can counter attack.

 

4. You already note the failure of Semi's ultimate goals; the collapse of the Seanchen empire will have little to no impact at TG, and Tuon will ally with Rand to add the displaced Seanchen army to the forces of the Light.

 

 

Aran'gar and Mesaana intend to keep the Tower divided till well after TG. While it is more or less obvious to us that the WT will unite under Egwene quite soon, the intent of the Forsaken is what counts. Like you said, they are screwing up everywhere. But their intention is to spread chaos. My former post will all those points was an arguement against Asmo's former post.

 

Semirhage too was unable to suceed in her plot. But, again the intent was to increase chaos.

 

And regarding Asmodean- ya that was quite funny wasn't it? The whole Shaido affair took so much of Rand's (not to mention Perrin's) time. It is even more funny because that happened BEFORE the DO delivered the order. Asmodean did it for his own gains and it turned out to be a powerful stroke against the Dragon. Hilarious. Very realistic too. Often in real life, the most carefully laid plans utterly fail and the simplest of events can create avalanches. I like the way RJ put that idea in the story.

 

PS: I am still waiting for a reply from Asmo.  ;D

[benr]

You know, the more I read over your list of what the Forsaken are doing, the more they seem like a bunch of merry pranksters instead of the most feared survivers of the AOL.  Only Semi used a really bold stroke, and even that was at a place that really wasn't going to affect TG.  No-one else seems brave enough to go all out.  Maybe Demo will surprise me in AMoL.  Is Rand so fearsome?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Ditto on Demandred doing something in AMoL. Am I the only one that thinks he has no balls? At the Cleansing he chickened out because he was equalled. In his defense people say he isnt a warrior, that he is a general, and that generals dont fight in the main ranks. So how the hell did he become a general then? Any general has had to prove his worth ON THE BATTLEFIELD, right?

 

Demandred let me down at the Cleansing.

[aevogt]

Now hold on a second.

 

Demandred retreated from Shadar Logoth because when he confronted Damer, Corele and Sarene he found he was going up against a superior force.  He thinks "the mans spinning was as strong as his own" yet none of those he confronted were harmed, which says to me that Damer was likely holding something back.

 

We know from tPoD that Damer Flinn is stronger than Gedwyn or Rochaid. Since both are in positions of authority and power in the BT, neither should be considered middling.  Since Damer can work the male version of the 5 flow healing, I would place him on a par with Nynaeve al'Meara.  As Third agers go, Sarene and Corele are neither weak in the Power.

 

Based on what we know of channeling strength and linking, I find it highly  unlikely that Demandred was stronger than, or even a match for, a circle comprised of a strong male and two moderate females.

 

Descretion being the better part of valor and all that, it's no surprise to me that he did the smart thing and fled a superior opponent against which he would likely have been killed had he gone toe-to-toe.  Demandred is no Dragon, to keep fighting when all is lost, he'll wisely retreat in the face of long odds.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

True, but I am still dissapointed. He gave up too easily. He should have showed some resourcefulness, maybe distracted Flynn or something.

 

Anyway, theres still one book left, Demandred is still up there, still my second favourite Chosen after Ishamael/Moridin. He still has time to do me proud.

[havoc110]

I haven't gone through all the avaiable boards to view "Lord of Chaos" theories, but I've just gone over this chapter (actually looking for Mesaana) and found the Dem entry at the end of LoC Ch. 7.

 

I actually do think it refers to Rand, now that I review it.  That's why Dem wouldn't understand, because he's playing 2nd fiddle to LTT AGAIN.  The Rand theory is further supported by Semi's thoughts during her torture scene in Ch. 6. and the Gr/Sammy meeting right before that.

 

Other possibilities: 

 

1) the general Chaos theory.  Does this make sense really? I mean what sort of plan is that?  Certainly that sort of describes Graendal's letter writing campaign, but Taim's proclamation at the end of KoD indicates that this plan has now come to fruition, and it would seem that "generalized chaos" is too nebulous a target to be reaching for.

 

2)  Some type of Taim as Lord of Chaos theory.  He appears on Rand's door just after the plan was divulged to Dem, and Dem relayed it to Mesaana, Semi, and Graendal.  His end of KoD scene would support both this theory and the Rand as LoC theory.

 

3)  A Dem-centric plot to make a new army of Dreadlords to "unleash the balefire".  He'd have been using Taim (whoever he turns out to be) and then subvert the Asha'man over to the dark.  (This theory also perhaps supported by the end of KoD).  But this is something that Dem WOULD understand, so that part doesn't fit.

 

I was looking for some more loony Mesanna theories that might fit with this scene.  After all, you have the LoC team in operation.  Semi has already has a scene, now Dem is skulking around T'A'R.  But from the Prologue it seems that Mesaana has already placed herself in or around the tower, and Dem doesn't know her whereabouts.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nah, he knows. 

Still Demandred kept silent, stood there studying them.  No, not Graendal.  Semirhage and her.  And when he did speak, half to himself, it was to they two.  "When I think where you two have placed yourselves, I wonder.  How much has the Great Lord known, for how long?  How much of what has happened has been at his design all along?" ...

 

That's probably what has him scratching his head throughout.  He keeps trying to figure out how much of what is continuing to go on is directly as a result of the DO's orders to others about which he knows nothing.  He doesn't want to get caught on the wrong foot.  He does want his own ultimate plans to come to fruition.  He probably doesn't consider his chances of that being very good if he gets caught zigging when the DO has everybody else zagging.

 

Overall, though, the plans he knows about don't make any real sense.  Some of the ones we know about are mutually contradictory.  Moridin institues a hands off policy toward Rand.  Shaidar Haran has Carridin trying to find Rand and kill him yesterday if not sooner.  Both "orders" being in force at the same time.  Once Moridin twigs to that he has whatsherface the DF in Caemlyn kill Carridin.  She wastefully decides to drown him in a whole keg of brandy.  What a waste.  :(  Imagine how confusing the plans we don't know about must be.  All-in-all, what the Forsaken are doing is very like digging holes and filling them up again endlessly, just like the Aiel have those without any honor doing.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, while we're cataloging things, let's not forget the successes both planned and unintentional that the Light has managed.

 

1.  Ailron, a Whitecloak and DF tool and his loyal followers have died fighting the Seanchan.  As a result, Alliandre has succeeded to the throne and. via Perrin, has pledged to Rand's cause.

 

2.  The Whitecloaks, themselves unthinking tools of the Dark, have broken down and the only useful contingent of them left is united under Galad and on their way to fight for the Light at TG.

 

3.  Due to how he brought it off, Perrin's rescue of Faile has resulted in two DF forces annihilating each other.  The few remaining Shaido are either being mopped up or fleeing back to the Waste, and Masema and only about 100 of his followers are all that are left of that merry band of tens of thousands of rapists and murders.  A measure of trust has also been established between those loyal to Rand and those loyal to the Empress.  That may prove very useful in what's yet to come.

 

4.  Caemlyn and Cairhien, Tear and Illian are now mostly at peace and beginning to establish mutual cooperation and support.

 

5.  By foiling Semi's abduction attempt, her ultimate aim of getting those loyal to Rand back to killing off Seanchan has been at least temporarily forestalled.

 

Yes, there have been failures for the Light, but there have been remarkable successes as well.

[havoc110]

Regardless, my point wasn't related to the level of Dem's knowledge of Mesaana's location.  What Dem doesn't understand is part of the LoC plan.

I wasn't trying to infer that Dem's confusion had anything to do with Mesaana.

It has everything to do with Rand and the LoC plan.  

 

I don't even know what Dem's purpose in his "not understanding" scene is.

(end of LoC ch7).  

 

I am reasonably sure that his confusion is over the Rand as Nae'blis part of the LoC plan.  As you and others pointed out in the Mesaana thread, there really aren't any competing plans.  The Carridin plan is 3 books past, and the Moridin plan is 2 books in the Future.

 

There is a lot of evidence to support the LoC plan involves Rand as Nae'blis.  Graendal, Semi, and Sammy all say this directly in scenes in this book.  There's the scene with Katerine and Galina (both BA), where Katerine expresses the same wonderment at the orders not to harm Rand.  I'm sure they are a complete turnabout of the BA's previous orders.  The other chosen also find it hard to believe.  That is also clear as they are talking about it.  

 

Graendal has already hatched a scheme to remove Rand and frame Sammy so that Sammy faces the DO's wrath.  For reasons only known to him, the DO wants Rand alive.  

 

Clearly, this is what the DO laid out to Dem.  He obviously sold it to Dem, probably promising him Nae'blis when all is said and done (hence tears of joy).

Not that Dem has any choice in accepting the plan anyway...

[Bob T Dwarf]

Dmandred is enough of a masochist that the tears of joy are as much for the pain as anything else.

 

Again, timelines figure in, and there is much confusion about 7 day weeks in the early books and 10 day weeks in the latter books and how those fit together, and make the exact timing of things work out.

 

Regardless, there IS a plan and formal order, first put forth by IshyBaalz to leave Rand alone.  Why?  Maybe because they figure he's the only one who can get them the Heroes of the Horn.  They've tried and failed miserably to get the Horn and Banner away from him, and now have no idea where it is.

 

Once Moridin becomes active, he keeps that plan in force.  It isn't until the danger of cleansing saidin comes up that he's willing to have Rand killed if nothing else works.

 

That plan and the order to leave him alone argues in favor of "Lord of Chaos" meaning Rand.  Perhaps the DO believes that Rand will inadvertently cause enough chaos to further his desires that leaving him alone and letting him do his thing will be of more benefit than killing him and having to improvise an entirely new plan that doesn't depend on him would entail.

 

Whatever the real reason ( if the DO can be said to employ anything logically equivalent to a reason for his acts is ), Demandred is justifiably confused about what the ultimate aim of the whole exercise is supposed to be.  And, how he can subvert the whole thing and become Nae'blis himself without ummmm... stepping on his sword in the process.

[Bob T Dwarf]

One thing I forgot in my catalog of Light successes is Mat inadvertently keeping Tuon clear of the whole assassinate the whole Imperial Family plot.  Because they still have to find and kill Tuon, Suroth gets exposed as the DF agent among the Seanchan. 

 

Once word gets back to Ebou Dar about who Anath really is, further Dark fecal material will hit the rotary impeller device.

 

I actually have the Light slightly ahead on points in this little bout of fisticuffs.

[havoc110]

Bob, where are you going with this? (this being you list of Light Side successes)

 

The topic is about a scene in LoC, and you're talking about foiling Semi in KoD.

 

What, if anything, does that have to do with Dem's lack of understanding in LoC chapter 7?

 

To the original poster:

I submit that the general agreement that LoC isn't Rand is incorrect.  At least there is a lot of evidence to support Rand as LoC.

 

From Ch23:

 

Sammy:  "...Al'Thor will not attack me, and I will not attack him...I agreed not to aid any other Chosen should Al'Thor find them.  All very much in accordance with the Great Lord's commands, wouldn't you say?"

 

Graendal:  "Of course".

 

Clearly in LoC, the DO institues a "hands off" the Dragon policy, which turns the Dark side on its head.  Sammy turns a profit by making a truce.  Hey, since he couldn't attack Rand (which Rand didn't know), he negotiated his own safety (for the time being).  A shrewd bargain on his part. 

 

Graendal then conceptualizes "feeding" the other Chosen to Rand (knowing the DO's preference toward Rand would only lessen those Chosen's chance of survival, and their track record to date hasn't been good anyway), as a way of eliminating the competition.  Likely that once brought over to the Dark, and make Nae'blis, one of the (few, or even only) surviving Chosen would take Rand down, gaining the Nae'blis title for him/herself.  Also apparent is each Chosen's belief that it will be them who wins out at the end.

 

Mesaana herself describes it as a big gamble.  Again, she doesn't really have much choice in the matter.  She just has to play along until her endgame scenario shows up, just like the rest of them.

 

The next question is what has really happened between "The First Message" and "Remember the Old Saying".  Remember, it's old because it's 6 books in the past. 

 

The passage about it being a line from a Fourth Age children's verse speaks for itself.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Why can't the DO's instructions have a twofold meaning?

 

Or rather, how would the Forsaken know how to interpret this instruction? Perhaps they took it different ways.

 

;astly, isn't letting Rand live fulfilling the second interpretation (creating chaos)??

[havoc110]

Strangely enough Bob, it seems we are in agreement?

 

LoC = Rand?

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think it's as logical an argument as any other.  More logical in some ways then some competing ideas I've seen.

 

Problem is - it's very open to interpretation.  So open that some of the Forsaken themselves could be mistaken about how the DO really meant it.  If any of them are mistaken, then their own minions are going to be mistaken as well.  But then, since we didn't get to hear that part of it, we don't know how thoroughly the DO explained things either.  He might have been very specific and we wouldn't know.

 

My best guess is that there's at least as much chaos happening inside the Dark camp as there is in the whole rest of Randland.

 

While the plan, if we can call it that, might have originated in LoC, it's still in force, although somewhat modified, at the end of KoD as Taim's notorious utterance probably indicates.  So it seems fair to me to examine that plan in the light of all the books that have come along since LoC.

[havoc110]

Ah, I see where you're going then.

 

I think that the WT/BT dynamic is key to the LoC plan.  The BT is Rand's power base, and if Rand does go dark, then you do get potential Dreadlords in the deal.

 

So Mesaana has done her deal.  The WT has been split, mostly clearing the way for BT ascension.  Oddly enough, the Egwene capture should fit in well with her scheme, but doesn't, because she feel the Rebels will capitulate.  I think sending off more Reds to the BT is part of it though, especially to balance things out (damage Reds in TV to balance lack of Egwene at Salidar).  Plus Taim get the Reds to boot.

 

So, now I can answer my earlier question.  What is Dem doing in LoC ch 7?  The answer is that Dem is searching for Ilyena's reincarnation.  It's as simple as 1-2-3. (one-two-three being Elayne/Rand/Dark Rand = Padme/Anakin/Vader)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hmmmm... there's a line that the Gholam utters when it attacks Mat in Ebou Dar.

 

"He wants her as much as he wants you dead."

 

Very puzzling, that.  Haven't seen any way to tie that little mystery up until now.  If you're right about Demandred being interested in finding Ilyena's reincarnation, that is.