why the Seals failed..

[Mat is the Boss]

1. The floating sphere was build during the AoL, which means it got nothing to do with the DO`s prison.

 

2. Do you mean that LTT it`s the Creator? He was the one who bound the Forsaken. The Creator is the one who made the Pattern, the person who saves it is called the Dragon.

[Foxy_Sox]

If it states that the Sharom was created in the AoL please supply me with a reference. The way I read it in TSR was that it was just there and Mierin (Lanfear) decided to poke a hole in it which became the bore. I thought the Sharom was just a physical manefestation of the prison the Creator had made. You may query what happened to make the prison change from a floating spere into a ruddy great big mountain, but please recall that a great deal of upheaval occurred directly after this incident, no doubt the city was deeply buried and the area where the Sharom was became a mountain. After all, we know for a fact that LTT is jolly good at mountains! :P

 

And no, I do not mean that LTT is the creator. LTT patched the hole (trapping the FS at the same time), not created a prison, and he muffed it anyway. Yes he was the Dragon, but Rand is titled the Dragon Reborn, presumably spun out of the pattern to do things properly this time. In my mind he will find it necessary to destroy the DO's prison in its entirety (thus fulfilling Herid Fel's note about clearing rubble before building, and also ending the world as it is known), and create an entire new prison. And since the doctrine states the DO is bound by the Creator at the moment of creation, it is therefore implied that Rand is by default the Creator, and the moment is the moment of creation.

 

Things have come full circle ie: Creation and DO imprisoned, DO let loose, DO slapped down and bore re-sealed, seals break, DO out again, DO imprisoned THEREFORE creation.

 

Come on, even if I'm totally on the wrong track, I know some of you out there are nodding your heads. It makes sense if you look at it from the inside of the wheel!

[RobertAlexWillis]

While I understand where you're coming from, I have to disagree.

 

Lets start with cases ...

 

If it states that the Sharom was created in the AoL please supply me with a reference.

 

I'd be happy to:

 

The process that enabled the great Sharom, or floating sphere of the Collam Daan, to hover high above the university was discovered and refined through the use of the One Power, but the sphere was built by normal people and suspended through the use of the world's own magnetic and gravitational fields.

 

From The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, chapter 3 The Age of Legends, page 34.

 

Next:

 

The way I read it in TSR was that it was just there and Mierin (Lanfear) decided to poke a hole in it which became the bore

 

The Sharom was a research facility, built as part of a university. Mierin Sedai (later to become Lanfear) was conducting research there on how to tap into a Power source that was not separated into male and female halves. (From The Shadow Rising, chapter 26 The Dedicated, Rand's POV seen through Charn's eyes)

 

Mierin had said today was the day. She said she had found a new source for the One Power. Female Aes Sedai and male would be able to tap the same source, not separate halves.

 

One can only assume that she had somehow detected the True Power, which came from the Dark One, and in trying to reach it, accidentally bored into his Prison. The Bore, however, is not in any physcial location, whether it is the Sharom or Shayol Ghul.

 

(From Lord of Chaos, Prologue The First Message, Demandred's POV)

 

Even after all his visits - and the first lay well over three thousand years in the past - Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.

 

Also, in the Age of Legends, Shayol Ghul had been "an idyllic island in the midst of a cool sea, a favorite of those who enjoyed the rustic" (same Prologue POV cited above). That hardly matches the description of the Collam Daan, which was located in V'saine, the fifth largest city in the world (from the BWB, page 34)

 

So no, neither the Prison, nor the Bore, were located in the Sharom, which was built by men.

 

Next:

 

And no, I do not mean that LTT is the creator. LTT patched the hole (trapping the FS at the same time), not created a prison, and he muffed it anyway. Yes he was the Dragon, but Rand is titled the Dragon Reborn, presumably spun out of the pattern to do things properly this time.

 

Lews Therin Telamon and Rand al'Thor are different personalities of the same soul. So unless you're contending that the Creator is one personality of the Dragon ... I'm not really following you here ...

 

In my mind he will find it necessary to destroy the DO's prison in its entirety (thus fulfilling Herid Fel's note about clearing rubble before building, and also ending the world as it is known), and create an entire new prison.

 

I assume you're referring to the note Herid Fel sent Rand, which read: "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty." (from Lord of Chaos, chapter 50 Thorns) We'll leave the part about Min being a hottie aside for the moment, and concentrate on the rest. I agree that this statment is probably well founded philosophically. But I don't think the "rubble" that Rand has to "clear" is the Dark One's Prison. The Wheel itself is the Prison. I think the "rubble" is the imperfect seal that Lews Therin put on the Bore. I think the Creator made the Pattern self-healing, and that the Seal as well as the Dark One's influence are keeping the "wound" of the Bore open.

 

If that is the case, then what Rand would have to do it 1)Get rid of the faulty seal, and 2)push the Dark One's influence (lets call it his "finger" to stick with the physical metaphor) back out of the Bore. The only way I think he can do that, is to push the "finger" back into the Prison himself, and the only way he can make sure its all the way "out" of the Bore is to go into the Prison himself and keep the Dark One busy while the Bore heals behind him.

 

I don't think the Dragon can be the Creator, because he is bound to and part of the Wheel. So, unless it is self-creation, that would be impossible, and nothing at all in the story indicates that.

 

Next:

 

Have we considered that perhaps Lanfear didn't make the original hole into the prison in her search for the true power? Perhaps the white floating ball (wasn't it? Its been a while) was the patch put there before, and similar to the one that Rand (presumably) will create.

 

Herid Fel and Rand actually discussed that, and dismissed it: (from Lord of Chaos, chapter 18 A Taste of Solitude, Rand POV, Herid Fel speaking to start)

 

"When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One's prison has to be whole again."

 

"Why? Maybe next time they'll drill through the patch. Maybe that's how they could do it last time - drill into what the Creator made, I mean - maybe they drilled the bore through a patch and we just don't know."

 

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One's prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. [skipping ahead] it must be so before the Third age comes again, and enough time passed since since it was made whole - an Age at least - that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. [skipping ahead] Any Age where the seals weaken must remember the Dark One eventually, because they will have to face him and wall him up again."

 

What Herid is saying, as I understand it, is that if the Dark One is only blocked from the world by a seal over a Bore, not a whole and un-damaged Prison, that he will always be able to influence the world, and therefore cannot be forgotten by the people in it. Since before the Bore was made by them, people in the Age of Legends (which according to the way Fel is talking, seems to be the first half of the Third Age, not the Second Age) did not even know about the Dark One, he couldn't have been behind a sealed Bore at that time, or people would have remembered him. The Prison was whole when Mierin and Beidomon Sedai made the Bore.

 

We already covered the "white floating ball" (the Sharom), so that's pretty much that.

[CandymanGT-]

I like your ideas, Foxy_sox, but I don't think Rand is the creator in any way, shape or form.

 

It is possible that this idea of the creator stepping in sheds some light on the mysterious voice at the climax of TEOTW. When a voice in capitals speaks to Rand ("Not here, this is not the place" or something like that)

 

This is the only time he hears a voice like this and the only other character who speaks in capitals like this is the DO. So it seems to me that it must be either the DO or the Creator who spoke. Since the DO can only speak directly to the Forsaken if they go to Shayol Ghul it seems unlikely he could speak to rand when he was elsewhere so I reckon it was the Creator. Maybe his role is simply to "clear the rubble" as Herid Fel described it so that the creator can step in and make a new prison.

 

 

On another note:

I think that was LTT's failure, he couldn't get the women onboard so all he was able to do is buy time instead of resealing the DO. In order for Rand to properly seal the bore is by destorying the existing seals and fixing it properly useing both sides of the Source

 

This could be directly connected to Rand's issue with killing women. He would have to agree to put women AS in a position where they are in great danger to do the job properly so he has yto get over his issues with doing this.

[Foxy_Sox]

Sigh, Thank you for the ref, Robert, I have not read this BWB and now I am beginning to feel that I am underinformed... I am going to go away and read a few more things before I come back here and make a fool of myself again, lol :oops:

[Gentled Ben]

A fool would argue with Robert despite his well-referenced post because their attachment to their theory is more important to them than facts; you're not a fool. You had some interesting but incorrect ideas, that's all. Post anytime. :)

[Thor]

I would laugh if the "Do not bring girl. Too pretty" part was actually part of the resealing instructions. Maybe if Rand brings her along, he wouldn't be able to focus, so the Light loses hence a Memory of Light. :lol:

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sigh, Thank you for the ref, Robert, I have not read this BWB and now I am beginning to feel that I am underinformed... I am going to go away and read a few more things before I come back here and make a fool of myself again, lol

 

I agree completely with Ben, only smart people can admit it when they missed something. I just spend way too much time on this stuff because I'm not married, so don't feel bad. :D

[Mercer]

Somewhat simple question here, that I cant get my head around: how exactly were the forsaken bound in Shayol Ghul with the DO? I mean, were they all conveniently "inside" when they sealed the bore, at hand, or was it not neccesary? Was their connection to the DO such that it was possible anywhere? I've not seen mention of this anywhere.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I mean, were they all conveniently "inside" when they sealed the bore, at hand, or was it not neccesary?

 

They were all conveniently inside, having a Forsaken coffee hour meeting at Shayol Ghul. I view it as proof that Lews Therin was as much ta'veren as Rnad is.

 

Exactly what occured that day can never be known, only the results. Of the soldiers, not a single man or woman returned to give any account. The seals were placed safely, without ripping open the Dark One's prison as many opponents had feared. By chance, all thirteen of the Forsaken were at Shayol Ghul (perhaps summonded for a conference with the Dark One?), and they were trapped in the sealing, thus decapitating at one stroke the Shadow's leadership. Though most of the world was held for the Shadow, if that had been the whole result it is certain that over the next few years the Shadow would have been extinguished all across the face of the earth. Civilization had retained a large degree of cohesion in the areas held by the Light, far more so than in those held by the Shadow. Deprived of their highest levels (and also perhaps because of the loss of the Dark One's infuence) the Shadowsworn fell into struggles among themselves for power, dividing into warring, vulnerable well before the Breaking progressed to a point that made the war the least of anyone's concerns. In any case, the War of the Shadow must be said to have ended that day at Shayol Ghul. So it is generally recorded.

 

from: http://www.tor.com/shayol.html

 

(Reading the whole "Strike at Shayol Ghul" would be good background. It is official, by Jordan)

 

Also, despite the fact that the above story says "all thirteen of the Forsaken", there were other Forsaken still alive in the Age of Legends who were not trapped inside. However, since they were not trapped, they're long dead, and therefore, not so famous.

 

RJ's explanation here:

 

Week 12 Question: In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

 

from: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Hope that helps.

[Thor]

I enjoyed reading that until the sentence that starts with "A bleak....".

 

Seriously, everybody gets forgotten, not just bad guys, I don't see what's so bleak about it.

[Mercer]

Hope that helps.

Clears it up. Appreciated.

[General Tam]

I think that the reason that the seals are failing is because they were made with saidin and saidin was then tainted. look at what happened to the ways they are falling apart because they were made with tainted saidin. is it not possible that this is what is happening to the seals. 8)

[Thor]

That's cool thought actually. Maybe DO tainted saidin for that reason, so that he can break out again (not just to strike back at the 100 companions).

 

Sure knows how to plan ahead, like 3000 years. :shock:

[puddlejumper]

It actually has a strong backing philosophicall and in physics. A universe is a set state until an external force asserts its power' date=' which would create a cascade effect of the laws of nature coming undone...[/quote']

 

I happen to be a physics major, and i have a little comment on that. Actually, when the DO is sealed inside, along with the foresakens, they are in a closed system, and whatever they do inside that closed system would not affect what is outside. Think of you on a train, and the train is moving at 50 MPH, no matter how you run inside it, jump, or whatever (short of destroying the train). Unless of course, if there is a leakage. Same law can be applied to our earth, solar system or the milky way galaxy.

 

So if the seals failed, and the webs are weakening, it has to be an outside influence. well, wasnt Ish partially sealed? (whatever that means, someone please explain. you are either sealed or not sealed, how can you be partially sealed?) maybe he's got something to do with the weakening.

 

Another explaination is that we know Rand unknotted the tied shields around him. Maybe the foresakens, and the DO did the sameting? and it took them 3000 years?

 

Just a thought.

[CandymanGT-]

You can still set off a bomb on your metaphorical train though. That'd have an effect on the closed system.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, when the DO is sealed inside, along with the foresakens, they are in a closed system, and whatever they do inside that closed system would not affect what is outside.

 

Thats not entirely true, because the seals are in contact with both sides of the Bore. So, the seals are, in effect, preventing the Dark One's Prison from returning to the status of a closed system. It was a closed system before the Bore was created (which is why the Bore had to be created from the outside). But as long as the seals are blocking the Bore open, the Dark One has a connection to the internal world of the Pattern. The seals themselves provide the medium for contact. Thats why Rand has to break them and fix the problem a different way.

 

Its also why the Dark One was only able to taint saidin. The seals were formed only of saidin, so that was the only half of the Power brought into direct "contact" with the Dark One.