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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The DO: Male, Female or Other


bRANDan
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The Do is Gender = Nuter why else do you think the shadow wants to destroy the world. Everyone can have sex except Shiatan, and Rand's 3 wives aren't helping the situation any.

 

Haha, that was good. And the Prison is actually a viewing room the Creator trapped the DO in so the DO would have nothing to do but watch us.    *invites people over, gets naked, says "Here's to you, DO."*

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All females create -  it's called motherhood. The Creator must be female. If the Wheel is all about balance, then the dark one must be male. JMO

 

derr....the creator is about balance.  the wheel(made by the creator) is about balance. the DO was not made by the creator.  the DO was not made by the wheel.  why the hell would the DO need to adhere to the concept of balance?  its an ENTIRELY seperate force/concept.

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derr....the creator is about balance.  the wheel(made by the creator) is about balance. the DO was not made by the creator.  the DO was not made by the wheel.  why the hell would the DO need to adhere to the concept of balance?  its an ENTIRELY seperate force/concept.

 

I'm having a hard time formulating a response to your post - I just don't understand what you're trying to say. I must be too tired. Let's just say I disagree?

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All females create -  it's called motherhood. The Creator must be female. If the Wheel is all about balance, then the dark one must be male. JMO
derr....the creator is about balance.  the wheel(made by the creator) is about balance. the DO was not made by the creator.  the DO was not made by the wheel.  why the hell would the DO need to adhere to the concept of balance?  its an ENTIRELY seperate force/concept.
I'm having a hard time formulating a response to your post - I just don't understand what you're trying to say. I must be too tired. Let's just say I disagree?
You said the Wheel was all about balance, and therefore Shai'tan must be male to balance the female Creator. But Shai'tan is outside the Pattern and so there is no reason for Him to adhere to this concept of balance. Do you understand Generic Aelfinn #2's point now? Not to mention that not all females create. And many males do (it's called fatherhood). So you have given no good reason to accept the Creator as female, nor Shai'tan as male, especially considering that Shai'tan at least is neither male nor female, and the same is probably true of the Creator.
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bRANDm-

 

In the other thread, you basically began creating, out of whole cloth, a cosmology where the DO and the Creator were parts of a race of beings.

 

Allright, you also said you were an e. phys student. That was my original major, back in the day, so I'm going to put things this way.

 

Is energy male or female? Neither.

 

RJ himself called his creation Manachean- the Manachean heresy stipulated that the Devil and God were equal and opposite beings, battling for control of the world and the souls of the people in it.

 

In more physics terms, the DO and the Creator are polar opposite alignments or polarities of energy.

 

Or more shortly, gender isn't a polarity that exists outside of finite organisms, and insisting that the DO must be male or female assigns an a prioi truth value to the proposition "All things are either male or female," which is patently absurb even when applied to species that we know exist! What about genetic neuters or hermaphrodites!?

 

The Creator is the Prime Mover of Randland- he made the Big Bang, however you want to describe it. The DO is his opposite. The Pattern is separate from the DO, and he doesn't like that. So he wants in. Incidentally, since the Pattern was designed to be DO free, and the DO would have no limitations within the Pattern, this would be *bad* for all life within the Pattern.

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RJ himself called his creation Manachean

 

I did not know that, but that's why I take part in these forums, to learn more about WoT.

 

Is energy male or female? Neither.

 

Quite true. I never said it had a gender. Phased, polar, biased, or whatever you wish to call it, that I did say.

 

and insisting that the DO must be male or female assigns an a prioi truth value to the proposition "All things are either male or female," which is patently absurb even when applied to species that we know exist! What about genetic neuters or hermaphrodites!?

 

I didn't insist the DO MUST be male or female, I just didn't think RJ would go to the "other" category. BTW, note the title of this thread. And yes I had considered the A-sexual aspect of life, but again, didn't think RJ would go there. Now it makes me wonder if there is only the DO and the Creator, have they just been sitting around throughout eternity when one decided to make a universe? Was there no beginning? Were they perhaps friend before the DO got jealous of the Creation? It raises alot of unanswerable questions.

 

Or more shortly, gender isn't a polarity that exists outside of finite organisms,

 

Physical gender does not exist outside of finite organisms. But what about the soul, as in Aran'gar's case, a male soul trapped in a female body. The female body doesn't let him channel Saidar, so gender must be a function of the soul or manifestation of the souls polarity. Could the "polarity" of the DO be similar to the "polarity" of a female. The DO=female theory was based on the "yes" answer to this question.

 

The whole thing stemmed from the "How was Cyndane healed?" question. I cannot see the DO asking any Black Ajah to do it, the DO is not one to show weakness, nor would any wise leader show their subjugates their

weakness('s). And if no Black Ajah healed Cyndane then who did? If the DO were to heal Cyndane it would be pointless to lower her channeling ability, especially when she is bound by a cour'souvra, this only makes her a more feeble weapon. The only thing I can see as plausible is that the DO healed Cyndane and was unable to heal her to her former strength. Yes, there are all sorts of alternatives, as Mr Ares pointed out. Yes, a Black Ajah could have been called to heal Cyndane (though I don't buy that). Yes, something in Finnland could have occurred that reduced her strength (that I can believe).

 

As I've said before it was merely a theory put out there. Proven wrong by the BWB, but still food for thought.

 

BTW you said " you were an e. phys student. That was my original major, back in the day,". Original major? Have you majored in other things since, or did you change your major? Just interested, not trying to pry.

 

Also, what are your thought on the whole Cyndane/Lanfear power reduction thing?

 

 

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The problem you're suffering is the imposition of human society onto beings of a different kind of existence.

 

It's philosophized in the books that multiple worlds have been created by the Creator. Personally, I lean toward the idea that the two of them exist in perpetual conflict a-la matter and anti-matter, and that the Creator "dispersed" himself throughout creation, and the DO wants to "come to grips" again, but that's speculation.

 

Look, RJ basically borrowed a primarily Christian conception for this aspect of his theology. You understand the concept of the Christian god? Good. Now imagine the Devil is his equal in power, not a cast-out angel. Same order of being.

 

Devil=DO

God=Creator

 

It's not that they're asexual. Sexuality is irrelevent. Sex only matters for beings that reproduce, and do so sexually. 

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The problem you're suffering is the imposition of human society onto beings of a different kind of existence.

 

You do know I don't believe the stuff I told you in my last post, right? These were things I speculated when I came up with the theory, and as there was precious little evidence as to what the Creator or DO were, the best that could be done was speculate. Also, because one person prefers one speculation to another does not make either one true or false.

 

It's philosophized in the books that multiple worlds have been created by the Creator. Personally, I lean toward the idea that the two of them exist in perpetual conflict a-la matter and anti-matter, and that the Creator "dispersed" himself throughout creation, and the DO wants to "come to grips" again, but that's speculation.

 

That's fairly close to what I now think.

 

Look, RJ basically borrowed a primarily Christian conception for this aspect of his theology. You understand the concept of the Christian god? Good. Now imagine the Devil is his equal in power, not a cast-out angel. Same order of being.

 

I am a Christian, but I did not learn it like that, I think you might mean Catholic? Though I am not sure myself. But yes I do understand the concept.

 

It's not that they're asexual. Sexuality is irrelevent. Sex only matters for beings that reproduce, and do so sexually.

 

Yes, sexuality is irrelevant, when you do not have a body. My point was that the soul has polarity , male=saidin, female=saidar, the body seems to have nothing to do with that. If these differences, or "poles", of the soul have some similarity to the differences between the DO and Creator, this could explain the apparent inability of the DO to heal Cyndane. Those were my speculations. BTW, I also thought it may be possible that the Power used didn't matter, whether TP or OP, that a spirit may not be able to heal a similar spirit(being, soul,whatever you prefer). Seeing as we have no proof against this it was not a ludicrous idea.

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Ah, but souls created by the Creator have a polarity.

 

Yes, and I thought this might reflect some difference between the DO and Creator, as the Creator is about balance. But it would be interesting to see the DO remake the wheel in his image, especially if the souls he created were not polar. A bunch of gender-less, self-reproducing humanoids? I had never thought of that before, I always thought even after he remade the wheel there would still be male and female, but maybe not. His way seems... bland, for lack of a better word.

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