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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

The Character Flaws in Rand's Women


Vassili
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spigots or caudrens  

114 members have voted

  1. 1. spigots or caudrens

    • spigots
      24
    • caudrens
      23
    • pie spoon
      45
    • washer woman. shaped washer.
      28

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No one is perfect, and I think one of Robert Jordan's talents was honestly portraying this in his characters. However, some of his characters are more selfless, wise, and have more integrity than others. We seem to spend a lot of time debating who is best on this forum anyway. My question is, which one of Rand's women do you think has the most flawed character? Why?

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I voted Elayne also, and I know that she has been clearly the most annoying of Rand's women.

But something else about Elayne irritates me too is that in the first 6 books of the series, and especially in the first three books when the three wonder girls of Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve were together; it was Elayne whom was often the one being the mature, level-headed person, especially when Nynaeve and Egwene were being immature. However, ever since she went back to Andor, thats when many of her immature qualities in her personality started taking over her thoughts and actions.

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how she always brags about ''hes not going to give me the lion throne''

 

While I agree that Elayne is the most flawed of the Rand Gals, I'd have to WAY disagree with this complaint. She never "brags" about Rand not giving her the Lion Throne. But she gets pissed that he would attempt to give it to her, and rightly so. Any throne that is "given" invariably paints the ruler who sits on it as a puppet to the government that gave the throne. Elayne's insistence that she EARN the Throne is nothing more than a VERY VALID DESIRE to be seen as a ruler IN HER OWN right, rather than a puppet queen established by a ruler too powerful to oppose.

 

Example. She accepts the throne from Rand. Rand dies at TG. How long do you think that she'll actually retain the throne? In fact, the people are MORE likely to rise up in rebellion because she WAS given a throne that was "taken by force". However, if she earned the throne THE RIGHT WAY, she would already have the support of the people, and regardless of what happens to Rand, she would retain her throne. She would be a queen indeed, rather than simply another steward of RAND'S kingdom.

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Guest Dreadlord

I cant pick which one is more annoying out of Min and Elayne. Aside from her only usefulness being the visions, Rand would still have both hands. She insists on going where Rand doesnt want her to go, and in KOD that really became a problem- Rand couldnt avoid the fireball because if he dodged it it would have hit Min. He should have let it hit her, she isnt that useful anyway. Perrin and Egwene could dream up what she sees. She is expendable in my oppinion whereas everyone in the story think her visions will make loads of difference, when they dont

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You don't think that Min is very useful, even if she didn't have her visions and readings???? Well, obviously you must have missed all the times that Min is the one who keeps Rand from losing complete control of his anger, and she has also many times simply been there for him to love him and help him in ways that only a lover can do for her man. .. and nope, I ain't talking about having sex, either.

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How would any of you like it if your signifigant other said that they were giving you a house? Only thing is, the house is already yours? While Elayne did have to go through the whole rigamarole of succession, it was never Rand's to give her. While his intentions were pure, it was condescending. It shows how much he understimates her.

 

I've never found Elayne to be overly annoying. I've looked at her as someone who is trying to fill some very big shoes (her mother's) and meet some very big expectations. She's finally growing into herself and becoming her own woman.

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^ No the problem is that it wasn't hers thanks to her mother. It was Rands to give to her, was he not in charge of the city? I don't think he underestimates her, if anything she and everyone else except the Forsaken ironically underestimates him..But I'd rather not rant on that....Anyway Elayne is the most flawed, though Min comes in a close second because of the last few books. Especially when she started telling people out loud every single emotion she felt from their bond

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^ No the problem is that it wasn't hers thanks to her mother. It was Rands to give to her, was he not in charge of the city?

 

That's not the point at all. It really boils down to logistics. Rand can rule Andor because nobody can stand up to him. Elayne, however, isn't the Dragon Reborn. If she is to rule, she cannot be seen as a puppet. Her power has to be perceived as HER OWN. When she assumes the throne, SHE will be the ones that has to rule the people, not Rand. As such, SHE is the one that has to win the hearts of her people. That's not something that Rand can give her, and if he attempts to, it will actually HINDER her standing with the people of Andor, making her appear weaker than she actually is.

 

Elayne's point shows a great deal of political prowess... however whiny she seems in expressing it. Her other quirks aside, there is NOTHING immature or arrogant about her decision to WIN the throne in the tradition of the other Queens of Andor.

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How would any of you like it if your signifigant other said that they were giving you a house? Only thing is, the house is already yours? While Elayne did have to go through the whole rigamarole of succession, it was never Rand's to give her. While his intentions were pure, it was condescending. It shows how much he understimates her.

 

From what I've read here, the argument is that Elayne was no longer Daughter-Heir of Andor since Gaebril (Rahvin) had already proclaimed himself king (?), however 'unlawful' that was. Apparently, Elayne didn't seem in the least 'grateful' that Rand risked his hide to get the throne back to House Trakand (read Elayne), even though she had not asked him. She just took it in stride, as if he could not have done any less.

 

All technicalities aside, one wonders how Elayne would have regained the Lion Throne if Rand had not ousted Rahvin. Say for example if they didn't know each other, and he had no idea that Rahvin ruled in Andor.

 

What pisses me off is that she is arrogant enough to think that she can rule two countries. If there is a Creator I hope he foils that plan.  >:(

 

I've never found Elayne to be overly annoying. I've looked at her as someone who is trying to fill some very big shoes (her mother's) and meet some very big expectations. She's finally growing into herself and becoming her own woman.

 

And I am not quite sure I like that woman ;)

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A woman is a person. A woman is as flawed as any human being, but somehow if she makes the same mistakes that a man makes, it's somehow worse...right?

 

Half of the pigheaded things people claim that Elayne has done, all three of the lead males have done twice and three times over, yet it is somehow more forgivable. I've lost count of how many times Rand just did something to spite Moiraine or Egwene or whoever and it ended up getting people killed. Sometimes dozens, hundreds, thousands of people were killed because of Rand's Mat's or Perrin's actions, but somehow I get that feeling that they are allowed to slide.

 

Some people have this weird notion about women in their minds, that they must meet a certain level of criteria to be viewed as a proper and good female. First and foremost, they must be beautiful, but then if they are beautiful, they have to be totally unaware of it and somewhat embarrassed that they are attractive. Either that or it has to be a non-issue to them. Disturbing is the fact that in this story they have to be "useful" to be of worth to Rand romantically. I really don't know how one defines "useful" when it comes to a savior of the world, but there it is. Useful, beautiful and well behaved. That's what it takes for some to like a female character, I guess.

 

I think Rand's best relationship was with Aviendha. That was an actual courtship, and you could feel Rand's attraction grow by the day in Shadow Rising. He genuinely respects Aviendha in many ways and in that he seemed honestly interested in gaining her respect and approval.

 

He just fumbles again and again with Elayne because he, like the other Two Rivers lads, can't wrap his head around the responsibilities of a noble, nor can he relate to the idea of being born into nobility.

 

Min...I'm actually getting tired of their relationship. They've spent so much time together she's starting to feel like Yoko Ono to me in a bizarre way.

 

Still, it's these struggles that make it interesting.

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Elayne, definately, i know she isnt but shes always reminded me of a sorta valley girl. Shes also the one so insecure she has the throw others off balance to get the upper hand. And God! if i ever hear another of lLni's saying ill scream!

 

i have to admit she did have to prove herself for the throne, which rand couldve helped it. a simple "house Al'thor stand with Rrakand" move 20 asha'man "armsmen" into the city, and all resistance gone

 

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I think I'm the only person that voted for Min. She's really starting to get on my nerves. I can see how she can be useful in certain circumstances, but why does she have to follow Rand everywhere? Seems like the man can't even go to the bathroom with out her being in the room with him. ::) And I also think extracting promises in bed is kinda low. She shouldn't play with his emotions that way, particularly as it was a case where he needed to think with his head rather than his heart.

 

That being said, I'm not crazy about Elayne either, she can be really snooty. So it was a toss up between Min and Elayne. I do like Aviendha though, she's the most level headed of the lot.

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elayne hands down

 

how she always brags about ''hes not going to give me the lion throne''

 

BAH, without rand andor would have been ruled by king gabril and she NEVER  thought of that.

 

Though I agree that Elayne is somewhat spoiled and a bit ungrateful, I don't buy the whole King Gaebril nonsense.  She would not have been able to do it alone, as Rand did, but Elayne and a circle of Kinswomen could have harried Rahvin out of Camelyn had Rand not beaten her to it. 

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elayne hands down

 

how she always brags about ''hes not going to give me the lion throne''

 

BAH, without rand andor would have been ruled by king gabril and she NEVER  thought of that.

 

Though I agree that Elayne is somewhat spoiled and a bit ungrateful, I don't buy the whole King Gaebril nonsense.  She would not have been able to do it alone, as Rand did, but Elayne and a circle of Kinswomen could have harried Rahvin out of Camelyn had Rand not beaten her to it. 

 

Interesting. But you realize she would have to know in advance that a male channeler (and a Forsaken at that) was ruling in Andor for her to go with a circle of Kinswomen?

 

Remember she presented herself alone at the gates? That seemed to have some importance. How would it be perceived if she did that with a bunch of women behind her? Even if she is Aes Sedai, she doesn't want people to see her as a Tower puppet (I doubt people would be able to tell the difference between an Aes Sedai and a Kinswoman, but only Aes Sedai can channel, so it would hardly make any difference).

 

In any case, as soon as she was in Rahvin's presence, he could have started using Compulsion on her. That is, if she was stupid enough to go near him.

 

I would like to know your scenario as to how she would have done it, if you don't mind.

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Although rand did kike Ravi out of Andor I doubt it was only love on his mind. He would anyway have to rid himself of the forsaken and getting Andor was a bonus. So true Eli would not have been able to rid herself of Ravi but that’s rand job as the DR so he was just doing his job, and the throne is still hers.

 

 

I cam see why Eli’s actions caused quite a stir she has to prove herself so it’s only natural. If she was a guy doing this people would not complain 1/2 as much, but although our civilization has = rights people are still unused to the idea of a woman in charge. Every mistake that woman makes is critiqued double what a man in the same position would make. She has to prove she is a competent ruler in-and-of herself-and NOT as a puppet. 

 

What ever the reason Eli is still an annoying character, she is to demure one second the next she is exploding at someone………maybe she’s bipolar :-\ ;D

 

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