lanfear weakened

[Darian]

can anyone tell me how the "new" lanfear is weakened? she appears to be still very strong in the one power...I remember Graendel getting furious that Mogehdien had brought girl that was "stronger in the power than she" apparently lanfear or cydane is still very strong...

[Chel Vanin]

I think Cyndane/Lanfear is weakened compared to the old Lanfear. Lanfear was, I'm pretty sure, the strongest female channeler of all time and now only Alivia comes close (possibly equal to from Cyndanes lone PoV). So yes I'm sure Cyndane/Lanfear is still strong but compared to old Lanfear she is "weakened."

 

Oh and Moridin could destroy her by tripping and landing on his chest.

 

Random question I just thought of. What happens to Moggy and Cyndane when Moridin dies?

 

Also, can someone take control of the cour'souvra by taking them from him? I know they are around his neck 24/7 but in theory would it be possible to take the cour'souvra from Moridin and then control them?

 

The cour'souvra have always been a bit of a mystery to me, other than the fact that its basically your soul in a box I don't understand much about them.

 

Porbably should have made a new topic on this but oh well.

[Kadere]

Lanfear was the second strongest of the Forsaken behind Ishamael. Even weakened as much as she is now as Cyndane she's still stronger then Graendhal. No one can be sure as to why Lanfear lost her powers. Whether it was a punishment from the Dark One, the price paid to the Finns, a result of being attached to the Dark One when meeting the Finns, a result of the explosion from going through the doorway, or whatever, we're not sure. But whatever the reason Cyndane is still much stronger then most of the Forsaken because of how incredibly strong Lanfear was.

[Talyn Al Carn]

I believe she is weaker as a punishment from the Dark One.

[DuDZiK]

can anyone tell me how the "new" lanfear is weakened? she appears to be still very strong in the one power...I remember Graendel getting furious that Mogehdien had brought girl that was "stronger in the power than she" apparently lanfear or cydane is still very strong...

 

My theory:

 

When Mat entered the ter'angreal doorway in Rhuidean, he had to 'pay' them a 'price' in order to leave. As the 'Finns told him, 'wise to ask to get out of here alive, but foolish not to set the rest of the price. We will set the price'. Now of course I'm paraphrasing, but thats essentially what they said. So to leave their lands, you have to give them something. Perhaps Lanfear/Cyndane chose to give up some of her strength in the OP in order to leave.

 

Now the bramble in the saddle of this idea is that she is supposed to have 'died' there, and her soul was put into a new body by the DO. However, perhaps the land of the 'Finns is not the same as 'the grave', and they can keep the souls/spirits of those who die there. In Knife of Dreams Mat wondered how it was that they could get his memories after he died, as he thought they must be able to do in order to get those memories that they put in his head. His conclusion was that they were in his head, and could see everything he saw. Now we all doubt this, because it would render his quest for Moiraine as essentially impossible from the start. So perahps rather than being in their heads, they simply are able to control/retrieve their souls on their deaths and extract their memories in that way.

 

So for Lanfear to escape the 'Finns, either physically or most likely just her soul, she would still have to make a bargain with them, to 'pay their price' as it were, in order to get out of their world and back into Randland. At the same time, this would also explain why it is that Moiraine is not able to escape where Lanfear could, because the DO isn't about to put her soul into a new body out of charity or anything. She has to find a way to break out physically, with her original body intact and living. So perhaps she can't escape out of the Tower from within, but she could be rescued from without somehow, or something. I think the fact that Mat has been there and apparenly MUST be one of the three to save her means something, because of his connection there.

[rd2000]

Lanfear was the most beautiful and most powerful female, ever. What are the statistical odds of the same woman having both those traits? What are the odds that two women,(one most beautiful, the other most powerful) would exist in the same time, or life?

 

My point is that it is statistically impossible. Therefore her beauty and her power are "enhancements"

 

If the DO gave her those enhancements, why hasn't any of the other female forsaken recieved similar enhancements? Lanfear was one of the two responsible for the bore, so maybe the DO gave her these gifts as a reward. I just don't think so.

 

I believe the gift of beauty and power was the result of Lanfear dealing with the finns. They did not enhance her "soul" but only her body and it's capabilities. Therefore, when her body died, gone were the gifts of the finns. Cyndane's level of power is equal to what Lanfear had before she was enhanced by the finns.

[bjclinton]

Lanfear was the most beautiful and most powerful female, ever. What are the statistical odds of the same woman having both those traits? What are the odds that two women,(one most beautiful, the other most powerful) would exist in the same time, or life?

 

My point is that it is statistically impossible. Therefore her beauty and her power are "enhancements"

 

If the DO gave her those enhancements, why hasn't any of the other female forsaken recieved similar enhancements? Lanfear was one of the two responsible for the bore, so maybe the DO gave her these gifts as a reward. I just don't think so.

 

I believe the gift of beauty and power was the result of Lanfear dealing with the finns. They did not enhance her "soul" but only her body and it's capabilities. Therefore, when her body died, gone were the gifts of the finns. Cyndane's level of power is equal to what Lanfear had before she was enhanced by the finns.

 

I like this theory alot....

[rd2000]

yet, only a theory.  ;D

[Luckers]

As I see it there are four different possibilities. For my own sanity I will cover each seperately...

 

 

1. The Cyndane body was not as strong as Lanfear’s in the One Power.

 

This was suggested often when Cyndane first appeared weaker, and at first glance it does hold some merit in that we know it takes the Shadow some time to find suitable bodies to contain their disenfranchised Chosen. However, if this were the case, how was it that Moridin, Osan’gar and most importantly Aran’gar retained their strength and connection to the Source? If Demandred’s thoughts on Cyndane—specifically that her reduced strength made it unlikely that she was Lanfear—then we know that the other Recycled Forsaken strength’s were all exactly the same as what they had been before. Moreover, if this aspect of channeling were a function of the body and not the soul, than how is it possible that Aran’gar still channeled saidin?

 

2. The Dark One purposefully reduced Cyndane’s strength as punishment.

 

We know that Cyndane was in a lot of trouble when she was transmigrated. Attacking Rand against orders, going off on her own, and so on and so forth… so the suggestion was that the decline in power resulted from the Dark One’s anger. Now, even if you accept that the Dark One could do this—and there is no evidence of anything of the sort—this makes very little sense. For starters, Cyndane was immediately bound by a cour’souvra. This ensured complete control of Cyndane by the Shadow.

 

This is where it begins to make no sense. The Dark One has shown that he has a high appreciation of the value of his Chosen’s strength and proficiency at channeling. RJ has even commented on how little he trusts Third Age channelers, so here is the question: Why would the Dark One hamstring himself by weakening Cyndane? At this stage he has total control of Cyndane; she is effectively nothing more than a tool, and it makes no sense for the Dark One to limit the effectiveness of that tool, especially when he has already punished her by trapping her soul.

 

Some people argue that the Dark One is so alien that normal conceptions of common sense don’t apply; and they are partially correct. Yet when it comes to his agenda’s, and his beliefs (that Second Age channelers are more useful) the Dark One is not a fool. There is a pattern of logic that he does indeed follow, and under that pattern it makes no sense for him to have reduced Cyndane’s strength.

 

3. Could the Finns have altered Lanfear’s strength?

 

There have been a number of theories about Finn involvement, including Lanfear making a badly worded wish, her paying for a wish with some of her strength, of Moiraine asking for, and taking Lanfear’s excess strength, but the fact is that all of these are unlikely.

 

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

 

 

 

This final one is, to my mind, the more probable.

 

4. Cyndane was severed from the Source, and healed by a woman.

 

This one is a little more convoluted, so I will handle it in parts.

 

The Circumstances in Cairhein

 

When we last saw Lanfear she stood channeling through an angreal that Moiraine clawed out of her hands as they both fell through a ter’angreal which subsequently exploded. From the beginning of the series we have been warned time and again of the dangers of channeling near ter’angreal. Add to that the fight over the angreal and the transportation to a different reality, and the likelihood that they weren’t both burned out becomes slim.

 

Beyond that, at that exact moment Lan’s bond to Moiraine was snapped, and as far as we’ve seen only two things cause a bond to snap—death and the Aes Sedai being severed from the True Source. Since we know Moiraine did not die (as of Knife of Dreams), than that leaves the possibility of being severed.

 

Now, as a side point, some suggest that the bond was severed when the passage between the two realities was severed, and yet there is still a passage between the real world, and the realm of the Finns in existence. Still, there is nothing to directly preclude this as a possibility.

 

A final piece of evidence can be found in the fact that the Finns managed to hold Moiraine and Lanfear (which we know they did between Moiraine’s letter in KoD and Lanfear’s comment in Winter’s Heart). We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword. So, the question is this: If Moiraine and Lanfear weren’t severed, how did the Finns manage to hold them? Both possessed their own angreal, and both would have been at least somewhat aware of how to deal with the Finn’s (fire, music, iron). Indeed, it’s likely Lanfear even knew of the Tower of Ghenjei, and the way out of Finnland. So how did the Finns contain these two powerful channelers?

 

Some suggest the Finns have the ability to break weaves of the Power, as with Mat’s ter’angreal. Yet the presence of the Aes Sedai symbol small as the foxes eye on that ter’angreal suggest it was made by the Aes Sedai for the Finns, not the other way round. Moreover, Cyndane’s shock upon encountering a similar ter’angreal when she was fighting Alivia essentially prove that she had never encountered anything of the sort prior to that event.

 

How did Cyndane Come to be Healed?

 

So, we know that after being held for a time, Lanfear died and was recycled into a new body. From Aran’gar we know that a person’s channeling state follows the soul through the transmigration progress, so if Lanfear were severed from the source, then she would have returned to life still severed from the source.

 

Some claim this would not be the case, citing Robert Jordan’s comment that if a person is severed from the Source they will be whole and complete when they are next reborn, but it should be remembered that the transmigration process is not rebirth, again, as proved by Aran’gar.

 

So, if Cyndane were returned to life severed, how would the Shadow react? At this stage Moghedian had just been brought to Shayol Goul, and even if she didn’t inform the Shadow of Nynaeve’s discovery, the fact that the Shadow knew to rescue her show that they are keeping close eyes on the Rebel Aes Sedai, and the likelihood that such a marvel as a way to heal being severed had not reached Moridin’s ears is very slim.

 

Now this was prior to Finn’s discovery, so the Shadow had no way of knowing that a man would heal a woman to full strength, so the obvious and logical option for the Shadow, rather than leave one of the Forsaken unable to channel, would be to summon a Black Sister to heal Cyndane… for even a weakened Chosen is better than a severed Chosen.

 

From there the function of the healing is easy. A dream message to Aran’gar and a Black ‘Yellow’ Sister sent to Shayol Goul by gateway. It would not have even aroused any suspicion, because as Suine observes, at any one time up to twenty sisters are off elsewhere in the world attending to other matters.

 

The Discrepancies Between the Loss of Strength

 

The most vehement argument against Cyndane having been severed, and healed by a woman is that Suine and Leane lost such a large amount of strength, whilst Cyndane only lost a little. But is everything what it appears to be?

 

Firstly, how much did Cyndane lose? We know that she is stronger than Graendal, and that even if Graendal’s beliefs about her own strengths are self-delusions, as RJ suggests most of the Forsaken’s beliefs about their own strength comparative to others are, we still know that Graendal is very strong—indeed, without the angreal Graendal was still stronger than Someryn, who had never encountered anyone stronger than she amongst the thousands of Aiel Wise Ones who could channel.

 

For very rough perception, lets say that Lanfear was a hundred. If Graendal is an 85 or an 80, Lanfear could have lost 10 to 15 units of strength, and still be stronger than Graendal. At 85 there would not be many women the world over who topped Graendal. But is this comparable to what Suine and Leane lost?

 

Now, the first thing that we must remember in dealing with Suine and Leane is that there situation is distorted by the Aes Sedai social hierarchy. People speak of them having lost ‘half their strength’ citing their own comments as evidence, but lets actually have a look at what they say.

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

So, what can we state absolutely about their new strength? Well, as of CoT we can state that their strength is above the cut off strength for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Suine, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.

[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

 

So we have two women around Suine’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the twenty-two Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Suine.

 

Why is this significant? Because if Suine and Leane are still within the range of Aes Sedai strength than a) they did not lose more than half their strength, and b) their strength attains an immediate judgment within the social hierarchy in reference to their old strength and position.

 

Lets take at what that hierarchy and judgment reflects. So, the social hierarchy represents a very limited range of strengths. According to RJ [insert proper quote] the Aes Sedai cut off point is at the 36.2 percentile which establishes the bottom limit for the social range, whilst the upper limit is established by Suine’s previous strength, where Romanda and Lelaine now sit (note: I exclude Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls because they are outliers; the former is thought dead and the latter aren’t truly included in the Aes Sedai range by most Aes Sedai due to the way they were raised).

 

Again, on a very rough chart lets say for the purpose of consideration that Suine’s former strength was 60, that means the social hierarchy range includes less than 30% of the range of channeling strengths. Therefore, even a minute loss of strength would result in a fairly large decrease of social standing. If Suine and Leane lost the same degree of strength as Lanfear (10 to 15 units) than yes, they would experience the loss of social standing stated. Beyond that, keeping in mind that RJ has stated that the Aes Sedai strength distribution is not even it also allows for the average to be roughly half way between their new and old strengths.

 

At this stage many people raise the fact that Suine was unable to lift Gareth Bryne, thereby proving what a massive decrease in strength she suffered, yet in that exact sentence Suine goes on to admit that lifting things with the power were amongst the hardest things that could be done. Furthermore, at the end of CoT we see Leane weave Mask of Mirrors, create Cuendillar and disguise her ability all at the same time proving that whatever strength these women lost, they are far from being ineffective channelers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rd2000]

"Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get."

 

I am not sure if you meant that to mean that Lanfear would not be able to deal with the Finns, or that they would imprison/execute her on sight. My theory is that Lanfear dealt with the Finns, and gained her beauty/power after she was rejected by LTT, yet, before she joined the shadow.

 

I also wish to explain further that the Finn's didn't necessarily modify Lanfear's "body" but her thread in the pattern. When she died, her thread ended, along with her Finn-given enhancements. Her life as Cyndane is an entirely new thread in the pattern.

 

[JenLenaMom]

I'm pretty sure the soul is the thread in the pattern. I don't have a well thought out theory on that, it's just a gut feeling. Maybe that's why shadow spawn can't use gateways.  They have no souls. True, they are animate but that doesn't equal a soul. 

 

Edited to put in words to make REAL sentences ;)

[avacraft]

I have a slight theory.  What if going through the gateway ter'angreal immediately cut off as much of each woman's power as she was holding when she went through.  Moiraine was holding all she could plus the angreal so it severed her but Lanfear wouldn't have had to hold as much to do what she was doing or even to match moiraine.

[aevogt]

Lanfear was the second strongest of the Forsaken behind Ishamael. Even weakened as much as she is now as Cyndane she's still stronger then Graendhal. No one can be sure as to why Lanfear lost her powers. Whether it was a punishment from the Dark One, the price paid to the Finns, a result of being attached to the Dark One when meeting the Finns, a result of the explosion from going through the doorway, or whatever, we're not sure. But whatever the reason Cyndane is still much stronger then most of the Forsaken because of how incredibly strong Lanfear was.

 

Actually, Rahvin indicates at the beginning of TFoh that he and Sammael could bith take Lanfear straight up.

 

"Is he really so strong?" Rahvin asked quietly. "This Rand al'Thor. Could he have overwhelmed you, face to face?"  Not that he himself could not, if it came to it, or Sammael.

 

This makes me think a scene in TSR.  Moghedien has Ny and El under compulsino and completely at her mercy and is wondering what to do with them.  She muses to herself about Rahvin meeting Ny unblocked, seeming to be thinking that he would be unpleasantly surprised.  This seems to tell me that Ny, and by default my personal favorite female channeler, Alivia may actually be stronger than many of the current crop of Forsaken.

 

 

 

[aevogt]

 

 

At this stage many people raise the fact that Suine was unable to lift Gareth Bryne, thereby proving what a massive decrease in strength she suffered, yet in that exact sentence Suine goes on to admit that lifting things with the power were amongst the hardest things that could be done. Furthermore, at the end of CoT we see Leane weave Mask of Mirrors, create Cuendillar and disguise her ability all at the same time proving that whatever strength these women lost, they are far from being ineffective channelers.

 

 

 

However, elsewhere Suian muses that she was once able to lift three times her own weight completely off the ground.  If she's a sturdily handsome 140, that means she can get 420 pounds completely airborn.  After her healing, she cannot get Bryne, call him a bluff, stocky 205, to so much as budge vertically.  Wouldn't this seem to indicate that she is in fact far less than half her original strength.

 

[Feral]

Lanfear was the second strongest of the Forsaken behind Ishamael. Even weakened as much as she is now as Cyndane she's still stronger then Graendhal. No one can be sure as to why Lanfear lost her powers. Whether it was a punishment from the Dark One, the price paid to the Finns, a result of being attached to the Dark One when meeting the Finns, a result of the explosion from going through the doorway, or whatever, we're not sure. But whatever the reason Cyndane is still much stronger then most of the Forsaken because of how incredibly strong Lanfear was.

 

Actually, Rahvin indicates at the beginning of TFoh that he and Sammael could bith take Lanfear straight up.

 

"Is he really so strong?" Rahvin asked quietly. "This Rand al'Thor. Could he have overwhelmed you, face to face?"  Not that he himself could not, if it came to it, or Sammael.

 

 

 

How would he know how powerful Lanfear is? And it is possible that he simply exagerates his strength...

[cloglord]

My theory is that Lanfear dealt with the Finns, and gained her beauty/power after she was rejected by LTT, yet, before she joined the shadow.

 

Umm, except you can only go through the doorway once.  If she had made a bargain previously, then Moraine would have gone through, and Lanfear would have stayed to kill Rand, Avhienda, Egwene,...

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead.

 

THis is not proof that the finns were unhappy, it is proof that they are tricksy, wicked, and false.  Take for example Mat, when he went in they were not unhappy with him, and yet at the end of their dealings they implied that they would have held him against his will if he hadn't asked to leave, and they actually did try to kill him.  Of course this does not mean that they would not kill or imprison someone who pissed them off, only that it is not proof.

 

If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

This assumes that they hold both women equally culpable.  It could be viewed from the POV that Moraine was attempting to bring a wanted interdimensional terrorist to justice, and Lanfear destroyed the door while attempting to ellude capture.  Again, while it is certainly possible that the finns held both women responsible for busting down the door, it is not certain, and it doesn't completely explain the differences in their treatment.   

 

We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword

We know that channeling worked as a deterent in that circumstance.  The fact that the finns have killed and/or driven aes sedai mad in the past, indicates that channeling is not always an effective deterent to the powers of the finns.

 

Both possessed their own angreal

No they did not, Moraine set out the bracelet for Lanfear to find, and Moraine took it from her as they tumbled through the doorway.

[Luckers]

"Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get."

 

I am not sure if you meant that to mean that Lanfear would not be able to deal with the Finns, or that they would imprison/execute her on sight. My theory is that Lanfear dealt with the Finns, and gained her beauty/power after she was rejected by LTT, yet, before she joined the shadow.

 

I also wish to explain further that the Finn's didn't necessarily modify Lanfear's "body" but her thread in the pattern. When she died, her thread ended, along with her Finn-given enhancements. Her life as Cyndane is an entirely new thread in the pattern.

 

I meant that the Finns would have been unlikely to deal with Lanfear following events in Cairhein

 

The reason i don't buy you theory is that there is no evidence... no evidence that the Finns could do that, no evidence that Lanfear ever approached the Finns before, no comments by Forsaken reguarding her vanity or change in strength back in the past. And also there is the fact that had Lanfear been gifted with anything it meant that she had already passed through the redstone door in question, and should have simply landed in the wagon when Moiraine tackled her.

 

It all seems based around this feeling that a woman could not be both the height of physical beauty and the height of channeling strength. And the fact is that that is in no way impossible--I mean i'm no expert in genetics, but there are women in our own world that are not only stunningly beautiful but have a mathematical or physical genuis. Indeed it seems to me that grouped genetic traits arn't impossible or even really implausible.

 

I have a slight theory.  What if going through the gateway ter'angreal immediately cut off as much of each woman's power as she was holding when she went through.  Moiraine was holding all she could plus the angreal so it severed her but Lanfear wouldn't have had to hold as much to do what she was doing or even to match moiraine.

 

Lanfere was fighting Rand who also had an angreal. She would have been drawing as much as she could through her own to even match him. A fact that Moiraine supports with her description of Lanfear as blazing like the sun with saidar.

 

Actually, Rahvin indicates at the beginning of TFoh that he and Sammael could bith take Lanfear straight up.

 

"Is he really so strong?" Rahvin asked quietly. "This Rand al'Thor. Could he have overwhelmed you, face to face?"  Not that he himself could not, if it came to it, or Sammael.

 

This makes me think a scene in TSR.  Moghedien has Ny and El under compulsino and completely at her mercy and is wondering what to do with them.  She muses to herself about Rahvin meeting Ny unblocked, seeming to be thinking that he would be unpleasantly surprised.  This seems to tell me that Ny, and by default my personal favorite female channeler, Alivia may actually be stronger than many of the current crop of Forsaken.

 

Rhavin's comments are based in hubris, and Moghedian's arn't far better--i.e. they all like to think they are stronger then the others. RJ has even specifically warned us about not trusting them. Based on what we've actually seen it does seem likely that Lanfear stood above all of them.

 

That being said, I do believe that Alivia stands at Lanfears former strength level, and thus above all the Forsaken except Moridin.

 

However, elsewhere Suian muses that she was once able to lift three times her own weight completely off the ground.  If she's a sturdily handsome 140, that means she can get 420 pounds completely airborn.  After her healing, she cannot get Bryne, call him a bluff, stocky 205, to so much as budge vertically.  Wouldn't this seem to indicate that she is in fact far less than half her original strength.

 

We have no idea about how strength in the power effects the ability to lift things, other than it takes strength. What we do know however is that Siuan cannot be half her original strength. This we know as a fact as Egwene directly states that Siuan is still stronger than several of Akkarin's companions. Subsequently we can extrapolate that the strength required to lift a certain weight is not directly preportionate--i.e. the amount of weight you can lift increases at a curve with the amount of strength you have.

 

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And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead.

 

THis is not proof that the finns were unhappy, it is proof that they are tricksy, wicked, and false.  Take for example Mat, when he went in they were not unhappy with him, and yet at the end of their dealings they implied that they would have held him against his will if he hadn't asked to leave, and they actually did try to kill him.  Of course this does not mean that they would not kill or imprison someone who pissed them off, only that it is not proof.

 

Well, off the bat... tricksy, wicked and false? Isn't that a little harsh? The ladies kicked in their door cloglord, not the other way around.

 

As for the rest of it. Mat asked for safepassage out of there and their comment was specifically that it was wise of him to do that when he hadn't set a price, implying that they may have taken him as the price, or killed him or whatever. It's not really related.

 

And say what you will, Lanfear and Moiraine both seperately make clear the Finn displeasure, so yeah...

 

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If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

This assumes that they hold both women equally culpable.  It could be viewed from the POV that Moraine was attempting to bring a wanted interdimensional terrorist to justice, and Lanfear destroyed the door while attempting to ellude capture.  Again, while it is certainly possible that the finns held both women responsible for busting down the door, it is not certain, and it doesn't completely explain the differences in their treatment.   

 

Equally culpable? Certainly not. But it is saying that both were held culpable, a fact supported by Moiraine in the books.

 

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We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword

We know that channeling worked as a deterent in that circumstance.  The fact that the finns have killed and/or driven aes sedai mad in the past, indicates that channeling is not always an effective deterent to the powers of the finns.

 

Actually its not an indication of anything. We don't know that the Aes Sedai weren't caught by surprise or anything else. The only time we actually know of when the Power was used against the Finns, it worked.

 

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Both possessed their own angreal

No they did not, Moraine set out the bracelet for Lanfear to find, and Moraine took it from her as they tumbled through the doorway.

 

Umm, yeah they did mate. Moiraine still had her figurine angreal, she kept it in her belt pouch which she had on her when she jumped Lanfear. I don't know why she didn't use it--then, or in Tear--but she still had it.

[Blackmoore]

The Foxy people in Fox-World grant gifts, though not the way that you would necessarily hope.

 

If Moiraine, for instance, asked to be "as strong in the power as Lanfear," she might have hoped to be boosted up to Lanfear's original level.  Instead, Lanfear was diminished by X and Moiraine was enhanced by X, such that Lanfear - X = Moiraine + X.  Thus, Cyndane is weaker, and we will find that Moiraine is stronger (Moiraine wasn't weak, just not foresaken class).

[Luckers]

Thats been addressed Blackmore.

[cloglord]

Well, off the bat... tricksy, wicked and false? Isn't that a little harsh? The ladies kicked in their door cloglord, not the other way around.

Yeah, but Mat didn't,he abided by the terms, and he got hung for his trouble.

 

As for the rest of it. Mat asked for safepassage out of there and their comment was specifically that it was wise of him to do that when he hadn't set a price, implying that they may have taken him as the price, or killed him or whatever. It's not really related.

 

And yet if the finns ultimate goal, the thing they get from the bargain, is the death of their partners, why would they hold Moraine?  Why isn't Moraine dead now?  It certainly does imply that the finns have a reason to keep her alive and as such it is certainly related and pertinant to the discussion.

 

And say what you will, Lanfear and Moiraine both seperately make clear the Finn displeasure, so yeah..

 

That is a beautifly executed argument, it completely lacks any point or proof, making it nearly impossible to argue with, congrats...

 

Equally culpable? Certainly not. But it is saying that both were held culpable, a fact supported by Moiraine in the books.

 

No, it is saying that they both were held which does not nessecarily mean that they were held for the reasons you propose.  Moraine does not support her culpability, she merely predicts that she will be held, a captivity that she does not expound upon.  In fact she does not mention that she is captive at all in her letter, nor does she directly mention the finns, except to remind Thom to remember what he knows of the game of snakes and foxes.  Moraine, does not support her captivity.

 

Actually its not an indication of anything. We don't know that the Aes Sedai weren't caught by surprise or anything else. The only time we actually know of when the Power was used against the Finns, it worked.

 

Driven mad from suprise?  MOraine specifically says that she had put off going through the doorway in Tear becaus there were "Rules and...Dangers."  Moraine's knowledge of the finns came from Aes Sedai who had studied the doorway.  If Moraine, a channeler of no inconsequential strength, thought it was dangerous then I'll go along with her assesment.  The power was not enough deterrent to keep the first aes sedai safe, nor was it enough for Moraine to feel safe.

 

Umm, yeah they did mate. Moiraine still had her figurine angreal, she kept it in her belt pouch which she had on her when she jumped Lanfear. I don't know why she didn't use it--then, or in Tear--but she still had it.

 

My bad, I assumed that Suian reclaimed it for the tower when they healed Mat in TGH.  TO be fair she appears to have only overtly used it once since, but none the less, I was wrong.  However, Moraine's description from CH. 53 in TFoH gives no indication that she was wearing her beltpouch, in fact is pecifically mentions how gussied up she was, and how incongruous Rand felt that was, so to say that Moraine had her beltpouch is as bad of an assumption as the one that I made.  Also, from Moraine's POV in the same chapter, we have no indication that she had the angreal on her, or that she used it when she embraced the true source.  Functionally, only Lanfear had an angreal, up to the point that Moraine clawed it a way from her. 

[dreago]

Okay Luckers, using the units you described as a starting point, if Lanfear was 100 points and lost 10-15 then do you believe Siuan and Leane also lose 10-15 or would it be proportional? Say if they were 50 points then they would lose 5-8 points?

[The Lost One]

The idea that Lanfear had gone through the doorway in the past to aquire her beauty and strength in the power is very interesting.  It is hard for me too, to believe that she just happens to be the most beautiful AND strongest woman channeler without some assistance from somewhere.  I know that it has been mentioned that she would not go through the doorway if she had been there before, but she did not just walk through the doorway alone.  She was in direct contact with someone else and there was a lot of channeling going on, so that might have taken her through the doorway - where normally she would not have gone through.  I don't think we have heard of anyone going through the doorway at the same time as someone else while in direct contact (holding on to each other).  I just think it is a cool idea, not sure if it is true, but I like how it fits that maybe they took back the wishes she had been granted before....so now she is not as strong or as beautiful.  It also fits in with her being so surprised at seeing Aliva's strength.  I think Lanfear was pretty confident that there was never a woman as strong or stonger than she was in the power.

 

But, I also like the idea that her reduced strength was a direct punishment from the darkone.  She is still VERY strong, so her strength is still up there among the foresaken, but something like that would hit her where it hurts - her pride and lust for power.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

Okay Luckers, using the units you described as a starting point, if Lanfear was 100 points and lost 10-15 then do you believe Siuan and Leane also lose 10-15 or would it be proportional? Say if they were 50 points then they would lose 5-8 points?

 

I think its a set amount that both would have lost.

 

Yeah, but Mat didn't,he abided by the terms, and he got hung for his trouble.

 

Well, he didn't really--he offered no payment.

 

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As for the rest of it. Mat asked for safepassage out of there and their comment was specifically that it was wise of him to do that when he hadn't set a price, implying that they may have taken him as the price, or killed him or whatever. It's not really related.

 

And yet if the finns ultimate goal, the thing they get from the bargain, is the death of their partners, why would they hold Moraine?  Why isn't Moraine dead now?  It certainly does imply that the finns have a reason to keep her alive and as such it is certainly related and pertinant to the discussion.

 

Who suggested that? Mat offered no payment, which is clearly what they ultimately want--the thing they get from the bargain--therefore it was wise that he asked for safepassage out. Who suggested they want the death of those they deal with? I mean it obviously happens, but its clearly not a specific agenda.

 

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And say what you will, Lanfear and Moiraine both seperately make clear the Finn displeasure, so yeah..

 

That is a beautifly executed argument, it completely lacks any point or proof, making it nearly impossible to argue with, congrats...

 

Umm. Cyndane and Moiraine both specifically state that reality. I assumed you were familiar with that. The first is in Winter's Hear by Cyndane during the Cleansing, the latter is in KoD in Moiraine's letter.

 

No, it is saying that they both were held which does not nessecarily mean that they were held for the reasons you propose.  Moraine does not support her culpability, she merely predicts that she will be held, a captivity that she does not expound upon.  In fact she does not mention that she is captive at all in her letter, nor does she directly mention the finns, except to remind Thom to remember what he knows of the game of snakes and foxes.  Moraine, does not support her captivity.

 

So... your saying you think Moiraine commited some OTHER crime following destroying a source of valuable trade to the Finns. Good luck backing that one up. I, meanwhile, will look more to what the books suggest. And as an aside, the tone of Moiraine's letter supports her captivity.

 

 

 

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Actually its not an indication of anything. We don't know that the Aes Sedai weren't caught by surprise or anything else. The only time we actually know of when the Power was used against the Finns, it worked.

 

Driven mad from suprise?  MOraine specifically says that she had put off going through the doorway in Tear becaus there were "Rules and...Dangers."  Moraine's knowledge of the finns came from Aes Sedai who had studied the doorway.  If Moraine, a channeler of no inconsequential strength, thought it was dangerous then I'll go along with her assesment.  The power was not enough deterrent to keep the first aes sedai safe, nor was it enough for Moraine to feel safe.

 

What. No, caught by surprise. Not driven mad by it.

 

But you clearly missed the point of that comment. We don't know the nature of how those Aes Sedai were layed low, hence we don't know that the power was ever brought to bear. As for the rest, i direct you to my previous comment and its ending.

 

My bad, I assumed that Suian reclaimed it for the tower when they healed Mat in TGH.  TO be fair she appears to have only overtly used it once since, but none the less, I was wrong.  However, Moraine's description from CH. 53 in TFoH gives no indication that she was wearing her beltpouch, in fact is pecifically mentions how gussied up she was, and how incongruous Rand felt that was, so to say that Moraine had her beltpouch is as bad of an assumption as the one that I made.  Also, from Moraine's POV in the same chapter, we have no indication that she had the angreal on her, or that she used it when she embraced the true source.  Functionally, only Lanfear had an angreal, up to the point that Moraine clawed it a way from her. 

 

To say Moiraine had her angreal on her in that situation is as bad as saying she had no angreal... how?

[wvlr]

The idea that Lanfear had gone through the doorway in the past to aquire her beauty and strength in the power is very interesting.  It is hard for me too, to believe that she just happens to be the most beautiful AND strongest woman channeler without some assistance from somewhere.  I know that it has been mentioned that she would not go through the doorway if she had been there before, but she did not just walk through the doorway alone.  She was in direct contact with someone else and there was a lot of channeling going on, so that might have taken her through the doorway - where normally she would not have gone through.  I don't think we have heard of anyone going through the doorway at the same time as someone else while in direct contact (holding on to each other).  I just think it is a cool idea, not sure if it is true, but I like how it fits that maybe they took back the wishes she had been granted before....so now she is not as strong or as beautiful.  It also fits in with her being so surprised at seeing Aliva's strength.  I think Lanfear was pretty confident that there was never a woman as strong or stonger than she was in the power.

 

But, I also like the idea that her reduced strength was a direct punishment from the darkone.  She is still VERY strong, so her strength is still up there among the foresaken, but something like that would hit her where it hurts - her pride and lust for power.

 

TLO,

 

Maybe you are just looking at this from the wrong angle.

 

Maybe she was the strongest woman channeler ever but not as good looking.  They have already stated that Samuels scar could have been removed.    Who knows what else could have been done in the AoL to enhance ones beauty.    Look at what can be done with a little plastic surgery now days.

 

OR

 

Maybe she was born with both!

 

OR

 

Maybe for some reason she did not use the doorway before.    Maybe she had to use the Tower of G.    Or maybe there were more doorways back in the AoL & each one could only be used once.

 

OR

 

Maybe it is like you said - Moraine "pulled" her through.

 

 

 

 

There are lots of possibilities - Probably many more than I have suggested.

[cloglord]

Well, he didn't really--he offered no payment.

No, he didn't make terms first, they took what they could get from the encounter, which was apparently revenge...Look, Birgette flat out says that the finns were untrustworthy, so I don't see how you are going to prove that the finns would only hold Moraine if they felt she had commited some wrong, it is perfectly likely that they held her just to be capricious.

 

Who suggested they want the death of those they deal with? I mean it obviously happens, but its clearly not a specific agenda.

I don't really know how you go about making a harness out of a person's skin without killing them, but Okay, I'll play along.  Just what do the finns want, and why wouldn't they want it from Moraine, deal or no?

 

Umm. Cyndane and Moiraine both specifically state that reality. I assumed you were familiar with that. The first is in Winter's Hear by Cyndane during the Cleansing, the latter is in KoD in Moiraine's letter.

 

Uhmm, no they don't.  Lanfear say she was held, but not why, and Moraine's letter doesn't mention the Finns at all except to mantion the game of snakes and foxes.  She give no clues as to where she is held, nor the circumstances under which she is trapped/endangered.  She only says that she is not dead as everyone would have her believe, and that Mat knows where she is, and that it would be unwise to attempt a rescue except under specific circumstances.  A kitten can be trapped in a tree, it doesn't mean that the tree is holding the kitten as punishment.

 

So... your saying you think Moiraine commited some OTHER crime following destroying a source of valuable trade to the Finns. Good luck backing that one up

 

No, I'm saying that the finns are holding her because they are capricious, and that her imprisonment gains them something.  I'm also saying that there is circumstantial evidence that holding people against their will is something of a pattern for the finns, as told by the stories of Bili under the Hill.

 

And as an aside, the tone of Moiraine's letter supports her captivity.

 

No it does not, the tone suggests that she needs rescue, not that she is being held captive.  Mat's experience and subsequent explainations of his experience,  support her captivity.