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the difference in oath rods


kleribituc
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the oath rod in the WT is marked with the number three but the rod that the aiel make Galina swear on is marked with three number ones or the number for one hundred eleven.  Does the number make a difference in the effect of the oath or oaths sworn on it?  The reference is pg 280 in tPoD pb edition.

 

Also, this is my first post, so go easy on me.

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All we have to go on is Galinas reaction when she swears on the new rod, and she does not appear to notice any difference.

 

 

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I wonder though if we will see any long term effects of swearing on the other rod.  We all know that it takes a few years for the "ageless face" to take effect from swearing on the Tower rod.

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There is no difference between the effects of the oath rods. All were created as binders, and all served a singular purpose, to enforce legal bindings on channelers. As such they'd pretty much have to be exactly the same.

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Maybe the one marked with a '3' was the third one made, and Galina's was the one hundred eleventh. Or it might be a personal logo - the Aes Sedai who made it could have used '3' as his/her personal signature, and changed it from 3 to III, or vice versa.

 

Or maybe Jordan just threw something onto the second rod at random.

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Guest cw

Maybe the one marked with a '3' was the third one made, and Galina's was the one hundred eleventh. Or it might be a personal logo - the Aes Sedai who made it could have used '3' as his/her personal signature, and changed it from 3 to III, or vice versa.

 

Or maybe Jordan just threw something onto the second rod at random.

 

Record keeping.

 

Given the original purpose of the Binders, controlling criminal Aes Sedai, I would expect they kept records of when a Binder was used, and who was bound with it.  A number or mark of some kinds allows easy differentiation between the different Binders.

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Yeah, I think you have to use the same binder to remove the oath as to place it in the first place.  Keeping records is most like the reason for the different markings as well.

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If all the sisters in the Black Ajha were released of the 3 oaths, I think it's unlikely that the rod in the tower was used for every last Black Aes Sedai.  Perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

Are the oath rods what is referred to as the "Rods of Dominion"?  Or are the rods of dominion something else altogether?

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Are the oath rods what is referred to as the "Rods of Dominion"?  Or are the rods of dominion something else altogether?

No the Rods of Dominion are something else altogether.  In the AOL the oath rods were referred to as "binders"  b/c they were used to "bind" a criminal from repeating his or her illegal actions.  And by illegal they meant what ever the Aes Sedai decided was not good for society.

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JenLeanaMom thats not exactly correct... Aes Sedai during the AoL wern't the walking ego trips with added doses of arrogence, lying and general pain-in-the-arse and the insinuation that the AoL Aes Sedai just went about binding people right left and center if they deemed them not good for society, totalitarian style, doesn't fit.

 

IIRC Binding was rare in the AoL and was only used to Bind Aes Sedai criminals (they don't work on non-channelers), specifically those who were violent, as a very last resort second only to severing. Aginor was IIRC prone to violence and so fourth, or was it Balthamel, I forget, been a while since I picked up my LBB (Little Black Book, the small paperback of the BWB) but whichever it was, he didn't manage to do enough to warrent Binding. Semirhage was given the choice between Severing and Binding when the hall of servants learnt of her sadistic tendancies as I'm sure you know.

 

So no, it wasn't used on "what ever the Aes Sedai was not good for society"

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If all the sisters in the Black Ajha were released of the 3 oaths, I think it's unlikely that the rod in the tower was used for every last Black Aes Sedai.

 

That's why, at all times, at least one member of the Black Ajah HAS to have direct access to the oath rod. Don't know where I read that, or even if it's from an interview or the books, but I read it somewhere (and it was not on the fora)

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If all the sisters in the Black Ajha were released of the 3 oaths, I think it's unlikely that the rod in the tower was used for every last Black Aes Sedai.  Perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

Are the oath rods what is referred to as the "Rods of Dominion"?  Or are the rods of dominion something else altogether?

 

The second binder that is known to have survived the breaking was given to Sevanna by Sammael after his cronies found it in Ebou Dar.  Since, before this one was discovered, there was only one known to be in existance, all the Black Sisters were "de-oathed" and then "re-oathed" using the one in the Tower, referred to as the oath rod.  That is why Galina does not try to escape Therava even though could just keep riding.  She is not certain her oaths to Therava and Sevanna not to channel can be removed with the one she knows to be in the Tower.

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Just by way of confirmation ... the Nine Rods of Dominion were not binders (one of which is the Oath Rod), they were people.  As Jordan says:

 

For someone — Marigan, I think, but my notes are a little wonky right about here — the Crystal Throne is not the High seat of the Tamyrlin, none of the Forsaken were among the Nine Rods of Dominion, and the “Rods” were symbols of office.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=30

 

If all the sisters in the Black Ajha were released of the 3 oaths, I think it's unlikely that the rod in the tower was used for every last Black Aes Sedai.  Perhaps I'm wrong about that.

 

As has been said, the Black Ajah does indeed have access to only the Oath Rod in the Tower.  The binder that Therava has now was given to them by Sammael (in his "Caddar" disguise) and was from the same Ebou Dar stash that the Bowl of Winds was in.

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If they are supposed to be the same then why have an obvious difference stated in the markings?

 

My guess is that the number denoted the destrict the binder belonged to. But its just a guess.

 

Does the same binder have to be used to remove the oaths sworn on it?  If so, that's propably the reason for it, I would guess.

 

Probably not, no. RJ stated that an Aes Sedai could create an Oath Rod in TAR and use that to unbind themselves, so I'm guessing they all work for any. Of course, Galina didn't know that.

 

Are the oath rods what is referred to as the "Rods of Dominion"?  Or are the rods of dominion something else altogether?

 

The Rods of Dominion were the symbols of office of the nine regional governers of the planet.

 

IIRC Binding was rare in the AoL and was only used to Bind Aes Sedai criminals (they don't work on non-channelers), specifically those who were violent, as a very last resort second only to severing. Aginor was IIRC prone to violence and so fourth, or was it Balthamel, I forget, been a while since I picked up my LBB (Little Black Book, the small paperback of the BWB) but whichever it was, he didn't manage to do enough to warrent Binding. Semirhage was given the choice between Severing and Binding when the hall of servants learnt of her sadistic tendancies as I'm sure you know.

 

It was Balthemel.

 

That's why, at all times, at least one member of the Black Ajah HAS to have direct access to the oath rod. Don't know where I read that, or even if it's from an interview or the books, but I read it somewhere (and it was not on the fora)

 

Its not actually that hard to get access to the Oath Rod as its no generally known that it can be used to remove oaths. Any sitter can take it without anyone knowing about it.

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There is no difference between the effects of the oath rods. All were created as binders, and all served a singular purpose, to enforce legal bindings on channelers. As such they'd pretty much have to be exactly the same.

 

not that i disagree, but i dont ever remember any quote that supported this. i looked for it during my last reread and dont recall any explanation. Is this an educated guess based on what we've seen (cause and effect, etc) or did I miss an RJ or WoT quote?

 

thanks!

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That the oathrods were used as binders in legal matters where an Aes Sedai had commited a crime? It's in the book. Sammael and Graendal think about it most clearly, but its referenced more than once by the likes of Semirhage and Balthamel, plus RJ himself spoke on it.

 

Or did you mean my statement that the effects would be the same? That is mostly supposition on my part, but given the lowercase name, binder, plus the fact that the Forsaken have only ever generically referenced the same effects seen in the Tower oath rod--plus the fact that as a legal punishment then it would need to be an exact effect for all binders--i think its a pretty safe bet.

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I've just read this bit too. Galina DOES notice a difference, from her previous state. As soon as she swears on the Rod to Therava and Sevanna, she feels the oath settle on her 'like a skin that is too small, from the top of her head to the soles of her feet' or something like that.

 

She also thinks 'i am the highest of the Red Ajah!, I sit on the Supreme Council of the Black Ajah!' but remarks that these statements feel like lies, after having taken the oath.

 

She wonders before taking the oath whether the rod will be any different to the Oath Rod in the Tower, whether it could be used to release her from these new or any old oaths, but surprise and terror overwhelm her after the oath settles, and we hear no more (in that chapter) about her thoughts.

 

DO new oaths replace old? Is there a limit to the number of oaths which a woman can bear, or every time you swear a NEW set of oaths (regardless of the number, so long as they're done at once on the same Binder) do they replace any previous?

 

I wonder whether the number on the end; 3 for the tower rod and 111 for the Aiel rod which Sammael gave to Sevanna, whether it has any meaning with regards to the number of oaths which can it can be used to enforce at any one time? The Rod in the Tower as we know, is used for the AS to undertake the 'three' oaths, could it be that this rod of Sevanna's can be used to a maximum of 111 oaths? Who would want to put 111 oaths onto one person at one time?!

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Galina DOES notice a difference, from her previous state. As soon as she swears on the Rod to Therava and Sevanna, she feels the oath settle on her 'like a skin that is too small, from the top of her head to the soles of her feet' or something like that.

 

Thats the same thing that happens when you take an extra Oath on the Oath Rod in the Tower ...

 

She also thinks 'i am the highest of the Red Ajah!, I sit on the Supreme Council of the Black Ajah!' but remarks that these statements feel like lies, after having taken the oath.

 

They probably feel like lies because deep down, she isn't those things anymore ... she's "Therava's little Lina".  But that has nothing the do with the binder.  Its not like she's under the Oath not to lie any more.

 

DO new oaths replace old? Is there a limit to the number of oaths which a woman can bear, or every time you swear a NEW set of oaths (regardless of the number, so long as they're done at once on the same Binder) do they replace any previous?

 

Given the experience of Seaine's hunters, no.  Taking new Oaths just adds on to the old ones.  When Zerah Dacan takes the Oath to obey Pevara and Seaine, the Three Oaths still applied ... even when they contradicted the extra Oath she had taken.  The conflict nearly killed her when Pevara ordered her to say something that she believed was a lie.

 

So, that pretty much negates the significance of the number, relating to the number of Oaths that can be taken ... people have taken four on the Oath Rod labeled "3".

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I meant the number of Oaths the rod can be used to enforce when taken at the same time. The... 'power' of the rod i guess. Could the Tower rod only be strong enough to enforce 3 oaths at a time (taken all at the same time)? It has been proven yes that the rod put 4 oaths on an AS over time (I havent got to that bit yet so didnt know about it) but they were taken as 3 and 1, not 4 at once.

 

What is the significance of it being Spirit touching the numbers (not simply the rod itself) that enforces the Oath?

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It has been proven yes that the rod put 4 oaths on an AS over time (I havent got to that bit yet so didnt know about it) but they were taken as 3 and 1, not 4 at once.

 

Actually, they're all taken one at a time, as far as I can tell.  In the incident with Talene, she was released from all Oaths, then retook the Three Oaths and her fourth one all in the same sitting.  Each one "settled into her" as she took it, like Moiraine's experience when taking the three Oaths.  Seaine released herself from just one and then re-took it.  So, the Three Oaths are not some sort of "package deal".  They are simply three individual oaths, that happen to be taken at the same time.

 

What is the significance of it being Spirit touching the numbers (not simply the rod itself) that enforces the Oath?

 

I don't think it has any significance, other than being the contact point for the flows ...

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Does anyone have a guess as to how many oath rods were in existence at one time? 

 

If it is the case where you need the same rod to remove any oaths taken, what if the rod was lost or broken?  this leads me to believe that they might be able to use any rod to remove an oath taken

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Does anyone have a guess as to how many oath rods were in existence at one time?

 

No clue.

 

If it is the case where you need the same rod to remove any oaths taken, what if the rod was lost or broken?  this leads me to believe that they might be able to use any rod to remove an oath taken

 

Yes, it is probable that any binder can be used to release oaths from any other binder.

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Does anyone have a guess as to how many oath rods were in existence at one time? 

 

I suppose at least 111 dosn't cut it?

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