The Ages make no sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Great Lord of the Dark]

If the Horn was used against the Light and the Dark won, how come the Wheel still turns and the Dark One is still imprisoned???? Did RJ forget about that (i doubt it) or is it because the Dark One was never able to break the wheel? Will he ever break the Wheel? Is the Pattern more powerful than the Dark One?

[Gorthal]

"And you believed Ishamael!?" :P

 

We have no credible evidence (only Ishamael while trying to convert Rand) to tell us that the Dark One has ever truly been victorious. 

[Lews_Windu]

And by the time of the books, Ishamael is completely insane from either the strain of the 40 year cycle, or from overuse of the True Power, so anything he says to Rand or anyone is suspect. I think the Dark One has never won, but there have been times where the victory of the Light was as dark as it's defeat. Think is Rand was more like Mordeth, and defeated the Shadow that way. Wheel is still there, reality is still there, but it's not much better than the Dark One winning.

[safwd]

The Dark One could have won in a previous age and was then later defeated. Who knows what has happened in all the ages that have come and gone.

Plus the Dark One could have won on a completely different world. The portal stones can take you to different worlds, perhaps the Dark One has one on some of those. The almost world that Rand went to through the stone was one where the Dark One won. Actually i think that one was just where the Trollics won the Trollic Wars. But you get what im saying.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

The Dark One could have won in a previous age and was then later defeated. Who knows what has happened in all the ages that have come and gone.

Plus the Dark One could have won on a completely different world. The

 

Nope. If the Dark one wins once its the game, wheel breaks ans world is remaid in Darkone's Image. Also if he wins anywhere, he wins everywhere. Its discussed in the books.

[Lews_Windu]

Right. And remember- the Portal Stones take you to worlds that could have been, not worlds that are.

[Darth_Andrea]

There is still the question of the statment made by Hawkwing in TGH. Where he said he has faced Lews Therin as enemy as often as ally or something to that effect. Which only makes sense if the Horn has been used by the shadow at some point in the turning of the wheel.

 

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

[Majsju]

Hawkwing might very well have meant that they had fought eachother while being alive.

The Wheel is a tad more complicate than Light vs Shadow. Heroes are spun out to serve the Wheel, to correct drifts or attempting to optimize events. While doing that, they might do things that does not necessarily seem very "good". Just take Hawkwing, trying to conquer the entire world and even attacking the WT. Hardly the deeds of someone who fights directly for the Light at first glimpse. But looking at the big picture, he laid the groundwork that made it possible for the Dragon to be reborn according to prophecy.

 

And the Dragons soul is not always reborn as the dragon. When there is no need for the Dragon (as in the champion of the Light), he is spun out as just any old Hero, running around doing heroy stuff.

[Great Lord of the Dark]

And you know that how? The evidence for both situations is equal, that's what makes it so complicated. We may only know in the last book. I do think that the Ages repeat and all that. The thingys at the beginning and end of the book give a hint.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, I can't speak for Maj, but I would guess that he knows it the same way I do ... by reading what the author says and thinking about it.

 

Jordan has said that ta'veren can oppose each other, at the Wheel's direction, to make a correction that the Wheel sees as necessary.  To quote:

 

Ta'veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel "sees" as the necessary corrective.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=27

 

This is in the same blog post where he said:

 

I can't really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta'veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.

 

(same reference)

 

There are whole Ages where the Dark One is not free and is completely unknown ... but those Ages are not always free from conflict.  If the Wheel needs to weave the destruction of one nation to make way for another, then it might weave out two ta'veren and set them to fighting to make that happen.

 

I personally think that we have a good example of this with Artur Hawkwing during his own lifetime.  Hawkwing would never have made his empire without another man ... Guaire Amalasan.  I would imagine that if someone with the Talent had taken a glance at Amalasan, they would have seen that he was ta'veren, too.  At least until the Pattern decided that it was time for him to lose ... so that Hawkwing could make his Empire.

 

Keep in mind as well ... the Horn of Valere was made long, long before the Dark One was set free.  So, fighting the Shadow is not its only purpose ... perhaps not even its primary purpose.  The Heroes could be called out to win regular battles, like they did against the Seanchan.  In one of those regular battles, if the Pattern wove a need for it, Hawkwing and the Dragon could end up on opposite sides ... with neither side being the Shadow.

[Kaznen]

And let's say in a previous turning Hawkwing was a Roman named Potius Pilate(?) and Rand was an Isrealite name Jesus.

 

Pilate didn't hate Jesus but he wasn't a big Christ boster, and he sentenced Jesus to die because that was the law.

 

He wasn't evil, but he sure wasn't on Team Christ, so it could be said the two were enenmies (as much as Jesus could think of anyone as his enemy).

[Darth_Andrea]

I have heard some speculation that the false dragon that was in part resposeable for Hawkwings rise was Rands previous life after LTT. I can't remember the guys name at the moment the one refered to as the Second Dragon. And hawkwing was somehow involved in taking him out though I haven't gotten far enought in the series to have actually gotten all that info honestly. So perhaps thats one of the things that Hawkwing was refering to. I know I'm contradicting my last post but hey *shrugs Ruefullly and smiles prettily* I'm a girl I can change my mind. :)

 

 

 

[glow=Green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

[PrinceOfRavens]

wasnt that guy you talking about guaire amalasan(sp?)

[RobertAlexWillis]

I have heard some speculation that the false dragon that was in part resposeable for Hawkwings rise was Rands previous life after LTT.

 

Thats all it is ... false speculation, with an emphasis on the false.  If Guaire Amalasan was Lews Therin Reborn, then he would not have been a "false Dragon".  He would have taken Callandor out of the Stone, united the nations for Tarmon Gai'don, etc, etc.  But he didn't.  Rand is Lews Therin reborn ... there wasn't anyone in between them.  Keep in mind, only Lews Therin is the "Dragon" ... all of the other previous incarnations wouldn't have gone by that name.

 

I can't remember the guys name at the moment the one refered to as the Second Dragon.

 

A few people called him that while he was alive ... mostly his followers.  Its no more true than Mazrim Taim's followers calling him the Dragon Reborn before he was captured.  Every false Dragon claimed to be the real Dragon.  But, to quote another story quite out of context, "There can be only one."

 

And hawkwing was somehow involved in taking him out though I haven't gotten far enought in the series to have actually gotten all that info honestly.

 

Oh, Hawkwing definitely was "involved" in taking out Guaire Amalasan.  In fact, the war against Amalasan (in which he began to build his reputation as a battle commander) is what propelled him toward building his Empire (and began his conflict with the Aes Sedai).  At the battle of Jolvaine Pass Hawkwing beat Amalasan's army (using some unorthodox tactics) and the Aes Sedai with him managed to shield and capture Amalasan.  Hawkwing escorted those Aes Sedai back to Tar Valon ... bringing his army where it was not welcome.  He stayed outside Tar Valon, and apparently helped defeat Amalasan's other followers who came to rescue him, but Bonwhin never forgave him.  She apparently incited other nations against him and when he started beating (and subsequently absorbing) them, he just kept on until he conquered everyone (except, of course, the Aiel).

 

The story is told in better detail in the BWB, p. 101-107

 

The long and short of it is that there was nothing new or unique about Amalasan except that he ended up propelling Artur Hawkwing to an Imperial Crown.  He certainly was not an actual rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon, or a predecessor to Rand al'Thor.  If he had been, Hawkwing would have said to Rand at Falme, "You could tell him, Guaire, could you but remember when you wore flesh."  But he didn't.

 

Its ok though, Dark Lady of the Sith ... just change your mind again.  You're a girl.  ;D

[Darth_Andrea]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Robert. *Loves You Much With Big Hugs*

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

[Chel Vanin]

Quick question. The Age of Legends was followed by the breaking then there was like 1,000 of peace only to be broken by the Trolloc Wars, then 1,000 more years of (relative) peace only  ot be broken by the War of a Hundred years after Hawkwing dominated everyone (except the Aiel, and possibly the Sharans). Now we're in the "third age" with 1,000 years (approx.) of peace, only to be broken by TG.

 

My questions are

A)would the 1,000 years b/w breaking and trolloc war count as the "1st age" and then the 1,000 years b/w trolloc war and war of one hundred years be "the 2nd age?" because I've always wondered why we skipped to age 3... what happened to those two ages...

 

B) Are all ages approximately 1,000 years long or, why is it that every 1,000 years something happens to completely screw with the world?

[JenLenaMom]

The AoL was the Second Age.  The breaking was the end of the Second Begining of the Third.  The whole 3,000 years since then is the Third Age.  When Rand breaks the world again that will end the Third Age and begin the Fourth.

[professorskar]

I'm pretty sure the Third Age is everything from the Breaking until now.  The Second Age was the Age of Legends, and consists of everything from the sealing of the Bore backwards until we-don't-know.

 

Therefore, the Third Age has been roughly 3000 years.  I don't think the lengths of the Ages are uniform, either.

[RobertAlexWillis]

would the 1,000 years b/w breaking and trolloc war count as the "1st age" and then the 1,000 years b/w trolloc war and war of one hundred years be "the 2nd age?" because I've always wondered why we skipped to age 3... what happened to those two ages...

 

No.

 

Are all ages approximately 1,000 years long or, why is it that every 1,000 years something happens to completely screw with the world?

 

Because Ishamael was more or less free in a cyclical pattern, and about every 1000-1200 years or so he got  a couple super "Get out of Shayol Ghul free" passes in a row.  He set up the Trolloc Wars, and he set up the collapse of Hawkwings Empire and the War of the Hundred Years (and the beginning of the fall of the White Tower from the prominence it used to enjoy).

 

Aran son of Malan son of Senar, an Ogier scholar, thought than Ishy was free on a 40 year cycle, and there may have been a more complex Cycle of cycles, somewhat (very, very loosely) like the Mayan concept of the Long Count calendar, in which smaller repeating cycles would occasionally converge in a more signifigant repeating manner.

 

Ishamael claimed direct responsibility for both the Trolloc Wars and the War of the Hundred Years (and the founding of the Seanchan Empire)[TEoTW ch 15].  While he is most definitely a lying liar who lies, he also understands that the most believable lie is one mixed with truth, and there is some corroboration for both of those claims (unlike other claims he makes).

[Kura]

Hehe, well there are those of us who believe (us being me, my dog Oreo [he is an avid WoT fan, I swear!] and perhaps Robert), that the 3rd age includes the AoL. Thus the third age would be the "Age of Channeling", and the appearance of new abilities would smite the channeling gene, but hey, thats just me n' me dog's thoughts. =)

[Werthead]

RJ said once that there was no set time to an Age. One Age could be fifty thousand years and the next could be fifty years. What's important is how that Age effects history and the Wheel overall.

 

The way I reason it is:

 

Our age is the First Age. My guess is that through genetic engineering, the One Power is discovered some time in the near future. This leads to a period of war and chaos which ends with the channellers banding together themselves and ending the chaos, becoming the Aes Sedai. They then guide the world into a new golden age of peace and prosperity, which is the Age of Legends. That puts the events of Rand's time some 7,000-10,000 years into our future (and simultaneously many thousands of years in the past, due to the whole circular nature of time thing). Then the Fourth Age comes and I guess will be a new Age of Legends, following on from the victory over the Shadow.

 

I wonder if RJ's notes include info on what was going to happen in the Fifth through Seventh Ages? Hmm....

 

Approximately 3,700 years also pass between the War of the Shadow and Rand's time: the Breaking was roughly 250 years in length, followed by the 1,350 years leading up to the end of the Trolloc Wars, then another 1,135 years leading up to the end of the War of the Hundred Years and then 1,000 years exactly up until the events of Book 11.

[Artfully_Unintelligent]

The horn will work for whoever blows it. If the dark one had won once at any point in history thats end game. The wheel creates a balance. Rand contorts the threads on the wheel. A child may fall from 1000 million miles up and then get up and walk away, while a 40 year old merchant dude trips over his own feet and breaks his neck. There isnt just light in the wheel. Its light and dark. or rather, good and bad. the wheel spins out heroes when there isnt a proper balance. the dark one is not stronger then the wheel he is just pure dark. He fights for himself(the shadow) while rand fights for the balance between good and bad. He is the strongest fighter there probably ever has been aside from artur hawkwing or probably including artur hawkwing so the chances of good and bad happening are drastically increased. If he simply fought for the light, well, the only things to increase would be good things and bad things would decrease.

[Chel Vanin]

 

 

Are all ages approximately 1,000 years long or, why is it that every 1,000 years something happens to completely screw with the world?

 

Because Ishamael was more or less free in a cyclical pattern, and about every 1000-1200 years or so he got  a couple super "Get out of Shayol Ghul free" passes in a row.  He set up the Trolloc Wars, and he set up the collapse of Hawkwings Empire and the War of the Hundred Years (and the beginning of the fall of the White Tower from the prominence it used to enjoy).

 

Oh.

 

I'm pretty sure the Third Age is everything from the Breaking until now.  The Second Age was the Age of Legends, and consists of everything from the sealing of the Bore backwards until we-don't-know.

 

Therefore, the Third Age has been roughly 3000 years.  I don't think the lengths of the Ages are uniform, either.

 

Oh.

 

RJ said once that there was no set time to an Age. One Age could be fifty thousand years and the next could be fifty years.

 

Interesting.

 

Thanks all :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hehe, well there are those of us who believe (us being me, my dog Oreo [he is an avid WoT fan, I swear!] and perhaps Robert), that the 3rd age includes the AoL.

 

Indeed, based on the only criteria we've actually been given for what changes one "Age" to another, I am indeed of the opinion (and think that Herid Fel was, as well) that the "Third Age" is the "Age of Channelers" and includes not only the 3700 some odd years since the Sealing of the Bore, but also the entirety of the Age of Legends.

 

But that is a discussion which has been had (at length) elsewhere.  I just didn't want to leave Kura nad Oreo out on a limb by themselves.  ;D

[Great Lord of the Dark]

I think that the information given in the books make it clear that this is the third age and that it doesnt include the Age of Legends. The thingys at the end of the book are clues, and the Breaking was such a catostraphic event that there is NO way that a new age couldn't begin. Unless Robert says so....but I doubt it