Min DOES screw up

[Luckers]

I disagree. Min's ability makes her an asset for the type of meeting that was supposed to occur--for the various insights into the other sides futures, and thus the integrity of their statements--for all that there was the potential for violence. So what if she is useless or in danger should it turn into a fight, she was not there for that purpose--indeed, none of them were.

 

You can't say 'oh he shouldn't have brought her, she can't fight with the power'. Their purpose there had nothing to do with a fight with the power, and whilst yes they clearly had to prepare themselves for that possibility--which they did--their goal was nonetheless entirely different, and bringing Min is very much an asset to their stated goal.

[BKVMC]

They  were going to  a  meeting with the daughter of the nine moons  they werent  going there to fight semi so yes  i can see where rand  would have thought having Min with  him would have been  a possible advantage to him.

[Moghedian]

I don't think that Min was really at fault, Ithink that it was Rand's fault for being so incredibly arrogant and not being prepared.

[anamul]

Min might or might not be at fault. Rand was anticipating a trap from Seanchen....Min wasn't concerned about that...she knew she can't help on that. She insist on being with Rand only for one reason...."SHE DOESN'T TRUST THOSE WHO HE KEEPS AROUND". Apart from the maidens she doesn't have any reason to trust any one who was with him at that time.....She knows about towers politics and where Rand stand with Aes sedai. The point is anyone could stab Rand in the back....she intends to at leats warn him...even if she can't protect him and a timely warning is crucial if one of his present company wants to sacrifice him for greater good or their own good.

 

Also Min knows his reluctance to move against the women.....she doesn't have any such problem....she will knife happily any-one she think a threat to Rand.

 

Well...My question is....

1. Was capturing a darkfriend(they didn't know it was semirhage) more important than to shield Rand from the fire sent by Semi.....any one could have or should have done it....Logain, Cady, Nyna....what did they do??? If they can't protect the Dragon Reborn ...? what good are they???

 

I very much think that if there was any Aiel channelar... the outcome would have been different.

 

Those damn Aes sedai and Nynave plus Logain bloody Ashaman...they all think that they are soooo above it all..... was the real problem.

 

If you want to blame anyone blame them....I mean if you were there and could channel...what would have been your first action? (unless you r a df....hey...hey...hey).

 

 

[Chel Vanin]

Theres a lot of blame being placed, and I think the real problem was that Min was allowed (or Radn coerced to let her w/e) to ride right behind Rand. She could have used her ability safely shielded behind Asha'man and AS. You have to weigh the need to talk to Rand right when you see it against the need to keep Rand focused on whats happening. Had she not sat behind him there is a possibility (only a possibility mind) that rand jumps out of the saddle instead of trying to block it.

 

As for the blame against those supposed to protect Rand... from what I understand the fireball leaving Semi's hand to the time it hits Rand is either a second or less than a second. Simply put, very little opportunity to block it. Rand's immediate thought is "save Min" and thats about all he thought before he was blasted. As for what the others were thinking maybe "wait was that a fireball? oh crap" then shield. Idk people seem to be expecting all the people at this meeting to be ready to react to any attack within seconds, when their purpose was to have a diplomatic meeting. Sure they're wary but they aren't preparing weaves to block a fireball.

[RobertAlexWillis]

So what if she is useless or in danger should it turn into a fight, she was not there for that purpose--indeed, none of them were.

 

I thoroughly disagree with that statement.  Rand brought Nynaeve and Cadsuane in fully decked out battle gear ... and deliberately checked with them before approaching.  He insured that he would have an large advantage in the number of channelers present.  They were there for a meeting ... but they were also there to win a fight if it was a trap.

 

You can't say 'oh he shouldn't have brought her, she can't fight with the power'.

 

LOL ... sure I can.

 

Their purpose there had nothing to do with a fight with the power, and whilst yes they clearly had to prepare themselves for that possibility--which they did--their goal was nonetheless entirely different, and bringing Min is very much an asset to their stated goal.

 

If Min was someone who Rand knew was loyal, but wasn't in love with, like Bashere or the Maidens, then yes, I would say the benefit outweighed the risk.  Rand would not have stood in front of a fireball for any of them.  But knowing his ties to Min, the risk was increased, because in the type of fight which was anticipated, she would be another person for him to protect, who couldn't contribute at all.  (And yes, I know she got a knife into Semirhage, but that probably wasn't until after she had been captured by the channelers)

 

What Min can do could have been done at a second or third meeting.  If nothing else, she should have remained with Bashere and the Maidens, and been brought in after first contact was made safely ... that way she could stay out of a channeling fight, and still be at the initial meeting, if it was that important.  But she insists on holding Rand's hand.  Well, she'll have to stay on the right side now, won't she?

[Luckers]

I thoroughly disagree with that statement.  Rand brought Nynaeve and Cadsuane in fully decked out battle gear ... and deliberately checked with them before approaching.  He insured that he would have an large advantage in the number of channelers present.  They were there for a meeting ... but they were also there to win a fight if it was a trap.

 

Nynaeve and Cadsuane are both constantly 'fully decked out in battle gear' so it hardly makes a good distinction for his battle mindset.

 

But besides your missing the point entirely. Of course Rand must concider the possibility of a fight--and, again, as ive said, he does. He brings along a whole bunch of channelers--indeed the strongest of them. He prepares for the potential fight.

 

But his actual purpose here is negotiation, and he prepares for that as well.

 

Quote

You can't say 'oh he shouldn't have brought her, she can't fight with the power'.

 

LOL ... sure I can.

 

Well, yes, you can--i mean this was a negotiation they were going to, and Min's ability is possibly the most beneficial of any of Rands close confidants when it comes to a negotiation. But your right she can't fight with the power. And i mean, its not like he brought others who could. So yes, you're completely right, you can say that.

 

Would i be a complete prat to roll my eyes right now?

 

 

If Min was someone who Rand knew was loyal, but wasn't in love with, like Bashere or the Maidens, then yes, I would say the benefit outweighed the risk.  Rand would not have stood in front of a fireball for any of them.

 

Umm. Alright. And your basing that on what? Because, mate, Rand totally would have stood in the way of a fireball... for bashere, and certainly for the maidens.

 

But knowing his ties to Min, the risk was increased, because in the type of fight which was anticipated, she would be another person for him to protect, who couldn't contribute at all.  (And yes, I know she got a knife into Semirhage, but that probably wasn't until after she had been captured by the channelers)

 

The possibility of a fight was a possibility, not the intention. The intention was negotiation and Min can contribute greatly to that endevour. The possibility of a fight meant Rand had to prepare, which he did by bringing some very capable channelers, but to use the word 'anticipate'... it is absolutely unfounded.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

But his actual purpose here is negotiation, and he prepares for that as well.

 

So, fine, prepare by having Min stay somewhere safe until first contact is successfully made, and then bring her in, if she's that important to the process.  Frankly, I don't really see it, though.  There's a chance that she would see something useful, but its hardly a guarantee, and no matter what she sees, it won't be something that Rand can change.  She didn't have to be present at first contact to be useful in her way.  The only reason for her to be there for the initial contact is that she has pinned herself to Rand's sleeve.

 

If she were someone else with the ability to "see" things, someone Rand trusted but was not in love with, he wouldn't have brought her into that situation.  He brought her, not because she was useful, but because she extorted a promise from him in bed.

 

Because, mate, Rand totally would have stood in the way of a fireball... for bashere, and certainly for the maidens.

 

I actually disagree with that.  If he had time to think about it, he might ... but he wouldn't have had Bashere's safety as the top thing on his mind, or even a Maiden's.  He would have jumped ... and maybe regretted it later (certainly if it was a Maiden), but he would have jumped out of pure reaction.  But with Min, his mind was constantly on her ... he knew exactly where she was, keeps constant tabs on her through the bond, and he does regard her safety as a higher priority, even than the Maidens.  As he told her himself, "I don't love the Maidens".

 

If nothing else, he wouldn't have made Bashere or the Maidens ride right behind him, to keep them safe.

 

The possibility of a fight meant Rand had to prepare, which he did by bringing some very capable channelers, but to use the word 'anticipate'... it is absolutely unfounded.

 

Look ... I'm not saying that he anticipated a fight as being more likely than negotiation.  But he did prepare for the possibility of a trap, and the type of fight which was anticipated, if there was a trap, was a channeling fight.  In other words, if there was a fight, it would be a fight that Min couldn't help in.  Since he prepared for that possibility, he should have prepared by having Min somewhere else until the Seanchan's intentions were confirmed.  She could see what she could see in a second or third meeting, as well as a first, with a much greater expectation of safety.

 

If you want to look at this from a completely dispassionate point of view, he shouldn't be letting her risk herself at all.  Channelers are almost a dime a dozen at this point, and even if channelers he can trust are more rare, there are still more than one.  While we know from Jordan's statements that more people like Min will appear, for now, she is unique.  The risk of exposing her in a situation that volatile is far greater than the worth of what she might "see", especially when she can be brought in to "see" after initial contact is made.

 

Min didn't come because of what she could "see".  She came because she's in love with Rand.

 

Rand didn't let her come because of what she could "see".  He let her come because he's in love with her.

[Chel Vanin]

I have to agree with RAW here.

The potential for her getting hurt in a fight was a bigger risk than the potential benefit of her seeing something useful in a negotiation situation.

 

Going in they had no idea of what was going to happen. Yes they hoped for a negotiation with the Seanchan but they also were wary of a trap. So either way its no sure thing.

 

In my opinion, the smartest thing to do would have been to have Min somewhere behind say Cadsuane or Nynaeve, or anywhere out of the "line of fire." I don't know exactly where that "line of fire" is but it certainly isn't sitting behind Rand.

[anamul]

Lets say you are secret service chief. U have 25 years of experiance....and you are taking the president and first lady to a possible hostile meeting which could turn out to be a trap.

 

The first thing you would do is shield the president....even if it means putting you 25 years experianced butt in the line of fire.

 

It could be split second.,.....and you know it....you have the advantage of making a shield of air infront of Rand! Why didn't you.

 

YOu are 300 years old Aes sedai.....and you don't know that attacks can happen in split second.....a child who read spy thriller would know it.

 

Rand had the advantage.....in number and warning...Cady detected channeling long before the actual attack....!

 

RJ wasn't a fool.......there is thing he left unsaid and argument not written which come back to hunt the character...we saw it before. How did Min persuade Rand? The thing that it was while making love is a crude way and Rand wouldn't have gone along unless there was strong argument on her part.

 

Yeah, if I am an Aes sedai for even six months and I take the job to protect the Dragon, my obvious effort will be shielding him one way or another.

 

Dude, a bullet can hit you in a split second....that doesn't mean your body guard can't protect you...cause he will be looking out for this kind of attacks.

 

It wasn't poison, it wasn't any brilliant scheme on Semi's part. She was sure no one will know the disguise...she was caught off guard....and our favourite home team blew it.....like the yankee fan says....they blew it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The reason no one bothered to shield Rand is that they all were pretty sure he could do it himself ... he hasn't told anyone about Lews Therin trying to seize the Source away from him, and certainly not that Lews Therin actually had succeeded once.  Rand has protected himself from things like that before, and isn't exactly gracious about people helping him when he thinks he doesn't need it.

[anamul]

Cadsuanue saw that he was strugglinh with Saidin.....when the trollocs attacked. But thats not the point.

 

Just because he can make a shield doesn't mean you should take the risk....for all they knew he could have been already cut off from the source.

 

All I am saying is that you just don't take any chance in this situation. It is immature.

 

I hear, President Bush is a X-army officer or something like that. Now Even if he could draw a gun in a Clint eastwood or Billy the kid style, the secret service won't depend on that....they would still want to follow there protocole or what-ever it they do when they sense threat.

 

All I am saying is that, The whole reaction was un-professional....Logain might let personal grudge stand in the way....Nynave might have been distracted....but there was couple of more channeler there...And for all the Cady fan in wot books(ohhh...she is creator sister...ohhh she is this...she is that...ohhh.oooo..its Cady the great)....what did she do with 300 years of experiance.

 

Our darling Elayne could have done better.

If I ever make a comedy series....I will make a scene out of that.

 

Like Cady standing and sucking on a lollipop with a big banner hanging up on her head..."300 Years Experiance".......Alleged "Creator sister"...while Rand is running from this camera angle to that with fire on his butt and screaming for his mum.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

[hurryupnwait]

I just wanted to respond to the shield Rand debate.  Yes it would have in hindsight been a great thing to do, but it is possible in Logain and Cadsuane's minds along with their respective channeler followers that they did not want to hinder Rand the most powerful chaneller of this and possibly and age from doing what he does.  After all they do not know he is having trouble with Lews Therin and sickness seizing the source.  They saw him (what they thought was him anyway) wreak havoc on those myrdraal and trollocs.  Any shield would have hindered any offensive actions on whoever was shielded from harm.  We know this from the closing events of the Path of Daggers when Rand shields himself from Dashiva's attack.  Not only that it keeps air out as well.  Would be a horrible irony if you shielded the Dragon Reborn from harm then suffocated him while you fight to protect him.  Maybe these channelers took that into account.

[anamul]

Logain knew he wasn't holding saidin. Also the trollocs can't cut you off from the source......Channeler can. The circumstances are completely different.

So the possibility stand that any one planning to attack Rand will cut him off from the source.

 

I mean what would your first action would be if you decided to attack Rand. You will first try to cut him off befor he embrace saidin...cause you know shielding any one who is holding the source is ten time as difficult.

 

A wall of thick air infront of Rand wouldn't have suffocated him. You get split second and you cover up the direction of the attack ...which would be to block anything coming from the direction of attack. A simple wall or thick air would have made much more difference.

 

As I said...Rand wouldn't have needed to keep them around if he was invincible....

 

Anyway, all I am saying is that others did screw up too. And compared to their mistake...Mins was a mild one.

 

What RJ tried to potray in the scene was the incompetence of the Aes sedai who was with him. The scene was subtle...in more than one way. Through out the series RJ did potrayed the Aes Sedai blunder...and in some cases he did with a subtle grace like the scene with Rand.

 

Cadsuanue claims to be clever...and she was learning everything she could about Rand. And first thing and the easiest thing about him to learn is that he is reluctant to move against any woman.

So you got to keep that in mind too.

 

All in all it was a blunder.Once again Aes sedai arrogance got in the way.

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

What you don't seem to be taking into account here is the speed with which everything happened.  Because Jordan takes the time to explain the thoughts firing through Rand's neurons at just a little less than the speed of light, it seems to take a little while.  It didn't.  We're talking a second to a second and a half here, tops, from the time Rand whispers "Semirhage" to the time he's lying on the ground, handless.  Logain, Cadsuane, and the others would have had to know in advance that Rand could not defend himself, and there's simply no way that they could have.  It seems obvious to us as readers, because we get to see inside his head, but they don't.  And men don't sense the Power in other men as easily as women do.  Logain would have had to have been concentrating on Rand to tell, especially with all the other Asha'man around him.

 

They were also reacting to the six damane that Semirhage had brought along ... its not like Semirhage was the only one channeling at them.

 

They had every reason to expect that Rand not only could, but would want to defend himself.  Keep in mind, this was the first time that he and Lews Therin both reached for the Source, and neither of them got it in time.

[Chel Vanin]

Anyway, all I am saying is that others did screw up too.

 

Yeah...but just like RAW (and myself a ways back) said, this happened much faster than you're making it out to be. Also i don't like the "if you're a secret service agent you save bush" argument because Rand can kill things with his mind and bush can't. I understand you feel that Rand should have been priority #1 to protect but I don't think anyone in Rand's party could have reacted quickly enough to save him, simple as that.

 

So, my earlier point was that maybe just maybe Rand would've tried to jump out of the fireball's way instead of taking it for Min. That's the only "blame" I can assiign in my mind.

 

Oh and I'm not a fan of Caddy's either (I kinda interpreted you didn't like her ;))

[anamul]

How much faster??? Cady and Naynave knew Semi was channeling.

 

As for Bush and Rand....equal footing...

 

For Rand...he is equal to others like logain and Cady and those who would attack him.

For President....Same footing with those who walk around him and those who might attack him.

 

Rand is much more than a president.

 

If semi can conjure a fire ball fast enough to throw it, they can conjure a shield fast enough to make a shield. From the point of origin....to destination...the fireball took time to reach Rand. And if they are as fast as you say, then it wouldn't have been difficult for them to do so.

 

The element of surpirse was on their favour.

 

Yeah, u can conjure a fireball faster than thought....but can it reach the target faster than thought??????

 

Rand wasn't kissing Semi when she throw the fireball....he has to be at a considerable distance.

 

How fast Rand can whirle his the spear he was holding? Even holywood movie doesn't show such a unrealistic scene. I mean if everything happened so fast....Rand shouldn't be able to whirle his stuff...

 

Beside my point is the air shield should have been there as soon as they sensed trouble.

 

Also you are not taking into account that Rands whispher of "Semirhage" did happed a while after the battle began. First Cady sensed that Semi was channeling. and there was at least couple of seconds time passed from cady detecting Semi channeling to the point when Semi was "allowed" to strike at Rand.

 

You go for the Head..(Rand)....It doesn't take a genious to figure out that Rand will be the prime target.

 

Simply put...they just didn't care.Let the fool die..... ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

 

[anamul]

By the way, I know you might come up with better argument but I will still stick to the fact that "They did screw up". I am not happy the way they let Rand got hurt. Given that the element of surprise was on their favour.

 

I am using real life as an example to explain my view...nothing more.But if you think that the danger in real world is less than in WOT...then you are wrong.

 

Given the situation:

Which one will reach it target first?

 

A bullet or a fireball(which is bound to have more friction with air and thus will slow down.

 

You are telling me that if a fast gunman was in Semis place, the danger would have been less? Lets just say this WOT world has gun.

 

For refference even in WOT world they can't kill with thought. IF it was soo easy then Rand would have been dead long ago. Imagin his encounter with Rahvin...if it was possible, all that needed on Rahvins part was to think him dead(Rahvin knew almost all the tricks in the oldest of books, Rand didn't).

 

All I am saying is there is time to react in a face to face confrontation in WOT world...otherwise it would have been insane.

[Artfully_Unintelligent]

It was entirely Mins fault. She is too stupid to understand that rand can protect himself far better then Min can protect him. So she goes to this meeting and Rand, being the worried furutre husband he is try's his hardest to protect her. Instead of nothing happening and the fireball wandering off into space, rand is forced to take it full in the face because Min wont acknowledge that he can better protect himself, and her, without her interfering. You can not deny that if Min hadnt been there, he would have dodged to the side and walked away unharmed. It irritates me to no end that garbage like that keeps happening. if semirhage got hold of min, she would be done for. A snack between breakfast and lunch on a silver platter lined with gold carried by a servant. Rand on the other hand has proven that he can handle himself against the forsaken. I cant blame Min, not neccesarily, she loves rand to death and since she is too stupid or to stubborn to acknowledge that he can protect himself better then she can protect him, its only natural that she would wnt to get in the way. Accordingly, i cant blame her, but it is her fault. Also, its Lews Therins fault because he wouldnt allow rand to grab it in time. For the sake of my blood pressure and the fact i dont want to hate min for making rand half blind and losing a hand i will blame lews therin. if he had trusted rand or atleast not been a greedy suicidal madman, rand could have protected himself.

 

A lot of you are arguing about something involving preparing for a fight. It seems to me Rand prepared for Negotiation. He came prepared for a fight because who knows whether one will happen or not. Kind of like you when you go to a store and bring more then one credit card if you havent paid you bills recently. You dont know which one might be maxed so you just bring them all. Rand prepared for the fight by bringing channelers. he prepared for negotioation by bringing himself and cadsuane as one of the channelers. Min and her sight(unless i read to fast again) werent even mentioned, though perhaps they dont need to be by now. She being his adviser. He brought min along because she caught him at a weak moment and forced him into it. The fact that she even agreed to stand behind Rand shows she wasnt so darn sure of herself after all. She should have had the brains to stay away from it when a fight was in place. If you love someone more then life itself you dont risk them in a channeling fight where you cant channel when you know they will look after you before fighting thier own fights. All in all, Min cant be blamed any more than Rand can, but both of them are at fault. Min far more so then rand, true, but both nevertheless. The real blame lies with lews therin.

 

What really irritates me is Nyneave keeping up a continuous stream of "wool-head" "fool" "man-stubborn" and probably a number of other things just because he didnt cry and pout and waste time and feel sorry for himself and the comment about being normal? is the woman blind? he has two souls, or at least lews therins sould hanging around for some reason. He isnt entirely normal. If it had been me? i would left behind half those hypocrytical women by now. Learn a few wards to prevent traveling and lock them in a dungeon somewhere for the petes sake. Who could put up with that? huh? no one thats who. the audacity of some them makes me want burn the WoT series. The fact that Rand keeps his mouth shut shows a serious amount of self-control i am not sure any human being could possibly posses. in fact, i am sure that none could. Its impossible. I hate it. Even if it had been Mins fault that rands half blind and he only has one hand, he would never blame Min because Mins a woman or some stupid reason. Not that it would matter, she would never consider it her fault.

[Darian]

I have been waiting to see if someone else starts this topic so I can comment.  Does anyone else feel like Min cost Rand his hand and maybe his vision?  She like all the other idiot women in this story are affronted by the men around them wanting to protect them and keep them safe.  What part of "Min, I love you more than life so please don't go to this possibly dangerous meeting.  If you go I will be distracted an worried for your safety, and I really need to focus on this meeting," is so awful.  So he goes to this meeting gets sick trying to channel to protect himself, then gets a fireball hurled his way.  He would simply dodge but Min is behind him so he takes the fireball.

 

Afterwards he stoically accepts the loss of his hand and Min is upset that he is not disturbed more by it.  If anything she should be relieved that her costing him his hand did not infuriate Rand.  Its logic me powerful channeler surrounded by Asha'man and Aes Sedai who want me to live to fulfill my life's work.  You chick that can read auras and throw knives.  Stay out of harm's way and let me do what I do.

 

Just wanted everyone else's thoughts on the matter.

im sure that now Nynaeve has captured Semirhage, the forsaken would probably reveal how to grow a hand, after all, Nemene Damendar Boann was the foremost healer of her time.

[aevogt]

"im sure that now Nynaeve has captured Semirhage, the forsaken would probably reveal how to grow a hand, after all, Nemene Damendar Boann was the foremost healer of her time."

 

Sammael was offered the opportunity to have his scar removed so tissue regeneration was possible to some extent.  Whether the AOL healers could do a whole hand has yet to be answered.

[Artfully_Unintelligent]

yea, besides, the wound was already healed. a scar is easy to re-heal, you just get rid of the scar tissue. the rest of his face is still there so its easy just to make new skin. there is nothing left of rands hand so how would they be able to re-make it? it may be possible, of course, after all the AoL is the AoL for a reason. as far as his eyes go, unless he gets attention from semirhage, i doubt they will heal or be healed fully again. eyes are touchy, medicine wise, adn there too delicate to be toyed with.

[Viezael]

I also think it was completely Min's fault.  I dislike her because she has her life completely centered on her man--I mean protecting him is a good goal, but she endangers and hinders him a lot (in my opinion).  Whatever though, Rand has his serious faults too--they deserve each other. :)  (my 2 least fav. characters--maybe I'll like them in the end...)

 

It boggles my mind though that Min can't see that her going along on dangerous missions as a non-channeler is going to be a liability most of the time--this reminds me of a part in Brandon Sanderson's 2nd mistborn book ... most of you probably haven't read that--but ordinary people often get in the way of magical people.  She should have just let him go.  Rand is so mangled.  I don't really like him, but of course I feel sorry for him.  He just can't catch a break.  His body is quickly falling apart.

 

 

[wvlr]

I must agree that Min is partially responsible, but the one that really deserves the lions share of the blame is Rand.

 

He knew that he was going into a meeting that had a significant level of threat.

 

He was in an all out war with them for crying out loud.

 

He knows that he has TWO problems with Sceizing the Power - First the fight with LT and the second the Sickness (and the man - MORDIN).

 

He knew that he had given Min permission to come and that he would need to protect her because she was the only Non-Channeler.

 

He had all the time in the world to prepare for the meeting.    So he should have found a private place and Seazed the Power Before Traveling to the meeting.

 

When the Trollocks attacked there was no choice - he could not prepare before hand because it was not expected.

 

For the meeting there is no excuse.    It was just plain stupid!!