The third oath

[druidravi]

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.

 

In the first book it felt like the third oath was a great constraint to Aes Sedai but since then we have seen it used in almost every circumstance.

 

1)Siuan and Morraine hold the power when they realize  Verin knows about Rand. What did they plan to do with her. Morraine's thinking

 

"We live in perilous times, and the world hangs in the balance, and what must be done, must be done. It must."

 

Seems like she's convincing herself that this is the last extreme of defending her life

 

2) Elaida and her group stilling Siuan and Leane . I suppose this is a use of power as punishment not as weapon according to them

 

3) Beating Rand black and blue , again they seemed to have convinced themselves it is punishment

 

4) Sinking Egwene's boat and stiking her with OP by the tower AS .

 

5) Joline , Tylin and the third Aes Sedai hold the three Suldam with power while Joline beats them. Punishment again or last extreme ?.

 

6) The above three hold the power and think of using it against the damane before Mat stops them. The damane had them  previously shielded but released  them on Mat's orders

 

7) Verin's compulsion weave

 

These are some which come to my mind . It looks like the third oath is not worth much with Aes Sedai doublespeak .

[Angel of Death]

1) They never used it against her, they were probally just a bit paranoid thinking Verin might be Black, if she was that would put them in danger.

 

7) Compulsion is by no means a weapon.

 

The Rest) Im guessing its all a state of mind of what is a 'weapon'.

 

Thats mt take anyway.

[Guest cw]

1) They never used it against her, they were probally just a bit paranoid thinking Verin might be Black, if she was that would put them in danger.

 

In that case, with Verin's reaction to what was going on being uncertain, Moiraine and Suian certainly were in a position that might require that last extreme.  They could have killed Verin where she stood the moment Verin said the words Dragon Reborn.  They would have had one heck of a time explaining it afterwards, but they definitely could have acted.  For almost 20 years Moiraine and Suian had lived with the knowledge that any Aes Sedai that learned the were trying to aid the Dragon Reborn would be a major threat to them even if that Aes Sedai had the best of intentions.  Look what happened to Suian even after it was proven that Rand was the Dragon Reborn.  With that knowledge being a long accepted fact on their part, the Oath would not have prevented them from acting against Verin

 

7) Compulsion is by no means a weapon.

 

The Rest) Im guessing its all a state of mind of what is a 'weapon'.

 

Thats mt take anyway.

 

What constitutes a weapon is very much a state of mind.  I don't care to get into an argument about it, but I for one don't see any of the none Black using the Power in ways I would consider contradictory to the Oath.

[aevogt]

I just read that section in TGH and most likely, Verin would have been shielded and restrained while they decided what to dowith her.  Since they decided they could trust her, no harm, no foul.

 

Holding someone with the power (restraints) while smacking them around with your fists doesn't not violate the oath.  A little Aes Sedai twisting for you there.

 

 

[Tyrell]

Yeah, even holding someone with the power while you slit their throat isn't actually using the power as a weapon.

[Guest cw]

Yeah, even holding someone with the power while you slit their throat isn't actually using the power as a weapon.

 

I would think that would be a little harder to pull off.  Your intention when creating the Weave for the bonds would be to fascilitate the enaction of terminal physical harm.  That is a little different than tying someone up so that you can beat the tar out of them before letting them go again.

 

I can't remember right now if that was what happened to Alric (Siuan's Warder), but I think his throat was just slit before he knew there was a threat around.  Being in the Tower and only seeing Aes Sedai around, he wouldn't have been expecting someone to kill him.

[Tenshin_Xo]

As long as you can rationalize it well enough you can do whatever you want with the OP, look at what the AS did with the oath to speak no untrue word.  Why do you think they wouldn't do any less with this one?

 

Rationalizations may include definitions of a weapon, just how far you are being threatened, and whether or not you believe someone to be a darkfriend.  Would Elaida's sisters consider Dragonsworn to be DF's?  I suspect so, and that gives them carte blanch.

 

Also lets say a sister sees a man kill her armed warder bare handed after having been locked in a trunk.  I suspect she would consider herself in extreme danger, not to mention being an emotional wreck anytime she was within line of sight of him.

[druidravi]

They never used it against her, they were probally just a bit paranoid thinking Verin might be Black, if she was that would put them in danger.

 

 

We live in perilous times, and the world hangs in the balance, and what must be done, must be done. It must. Oh, Verin, why did you have to put your nose in where it does not belong?

 

There is nothing to suggest Morraine thinks Verin is BA , in fact she thinks fondly of Verin. Well if Verin tells the others there is  a good chance they both will be stilled or killed . In a way by attacking Verin they might think they are defending their lives.

 

 

I just read that section in TGH and most likely, Verin would have been shielded and restrained while they decided what to dowith her.  Since they decided they could trust her, no harm, no foul.

 

Hmm..there would  be no way they could have continued after just shielding and restraining her. They can't hide her , they don't know compulsion . And as if their aiding the dragon was not enough , detaining and harming a fellow sister against her will would clearly get them death/stilling  .  Their only chance is to kill her and  Tomas .

 

Also lets say a sister sees a man kill her armed warder bare handed after having been locked in a trunk.  I suspect she would consider herself in extreme danger, not to mention being an emotional wreck anytime she was within line of sight of him.

 

Well she says she will "punish" Rand because he tried to break the shield again . Rand was not in her sight , he was in the box . For punishing him he was taken out of the box. I agree with rest of your post. All the three oaths seem useless before AS rationalizations.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Hmm..there would  be no way they could have continued after just shielding and restraining her. They can't hide her , they don't know compulsion . And as if their aiding the dragon was not enough , detaining and harming a fellow sister against her will would clearly get them death/stilling  .  Their only chance is to kill her and  Tomas .

 

 

If theey did not believe that their lives were actually at risk (as opposed to being at risk of being stilled) the Oath would have prevented them from killing her. They could of used the power to bind and gag her but they would have been physically unable to kill Verin. Remember the scene in Kad where the Black Ajah Hunters attempt to make a sister, that has just retaken the oaths with the extra oath to obay them, to say something she believes is false, the sister following her oath to obay attempted to speak but she almost choke to death because of the oath of not to lie.

 

The point is that there is a tremendous about of wiggle room for all three oaths but there are also definate limits. For instance, its true that you can use the poiwer to kill a darkfriend or to protect your own life but you would still have to be convinced that the person was a darkfriend or you were actually in danger og being killed. Many of the Tower A.S. may actually believe that Dragon sworn are as bad as Darkfriends but do the actually believe they are darkfriends or just bloodthirsty fools? It would take a considerable amount of effort and time to convince yourself of something just because you want to use the power to kill someone.  Its possible but an A.S. clever enough to acomplish it is probably clever enough to think of an easier way to rid herself of the offending target of her wrath.

[Elgee]

Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister.

 

I have always understood that to mean a weapon to kill. It might be an assumption on my part, but I think the way that oath is applied in the Books bears that out.  In fact, I think it's mentioned somewhere that an AS can do pretty much anything to anyone with the OP, apart from killing them, without violating that oath, but I can't recall now specifically where.

[DemandredFO]

The weapon oath is the reason Ebin(sp?) was killed at the cleansing, Daigion didn't rationalize fast enough.  This is probably one reason Damar was put in charge of his group, no oaths, no rationalization needed.  The only time this rationalization works is in situations where one has time to consider.  The Aes Sedai with Perrin had to put themselves and their warders in mortal danger before helping.  In short, all the oaths are kind of counter-productive.

[Guest cw]

The weapon oath is the reason Ebin(sp?) was killed at the cleansing, Daigion didn't rationalize fast enough.  This is probably one reason Damar was put in charge of his group, no oaths, no rationalization needed.  The only time this rationalization works is in situations where one has time to consider.  The Aes Sedai with Perrin had to put themselves and their warders in mortal danger before helping.  In short, all the oaths are kind of counter-productive.

 

I agree with you concerning what happened at the Cleansing being a result of not rationalizing fast enough, but I disagree that Bera and Kiruna had to put themselves in harms way before they could do anything.  They could easily have attacked the Shaido from where Perrin told them to stay.  They knew there were Aes Sedai in the camp under attack from both Channellers and armed warriors.  Defense of those Sisters satisfied the requirements of the Oaths.  Bera and Kiruna moved in close for reasons of there own, probably to try and reach Rand first.  The claims of the Oaths was just a convenient excuse to give Perin later.

 

From A Crown of Swords Chapter 2 "The Butcher's Yard", Page 74

"Are you finished, farmboy?"  Kiruna's voice was dangerously calm.  The face she turned up to him might have been carved from some dark ice, and she reeked of affront.  Standing on the ground, she somehow made it seem that she was looking down at him.  Not an Aes Sedai trick, that; he had seen Faile do it.  He suspected most women knew how.  "I will tell you something, though the meanest intelligence should be able to reason it out.  By the Three Oaths, no sister may use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn or in defense of her life, or that of her Warders or another sister.  We could have stood where you would have had us and watched until Tarmon Gai'don without ever being able to do anything effective.  Not until we were in danger ourselves.  I do not like having to explain my actions, farmboy.  Do not make me do it again.  Do you understand?"

 

Her statements are not nearly as straight forward as they first sound.  She actually admits they could act if another Sister's life was in danger.  Since they knew that to be the case, by her own words, she could have used the Power as a weapon.  The rest of her statement is simply to deflect Perrin from thinking about her true motivations.  She says they could have stood there and watched until they were in danger them selves, but she never actually says they couldn't stand there throwing fireballs and calling lightning without being in danger themselves.

[CUBAREY]

What other sisters were in danger? Only those that had captured Rand and Perrin was attacking. So how could she aid Perrin's attack by using the power to aid those he was attacking?

[BKVMC]

What other sisters were in danger? Only those that had captured Rand and Perrin was attacking. So how could she aid Perrin's attack by using the power to aid those he was attacking?

 

Kiruna could have used the power as a weapon  to  attack the shaido  who were attacking the sisters who captured  rand the shaido   were  who they  were  hacking through  to get to the wagons anyway its very  convaluted isnt it  Lol

[druidravi]

It was a 3 way fight but taking out the shaido will only help the tower AS get away. The shaido attacking gave Perrin's group an opening. Otherwise they could have been pretty screwed up till the Ashaman showed up.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

It was a 3 way fight but taking out the shaido will only help the tower AS get away. The shaido attacking gave Perrin's group an opening. Otherwise they could have been pretty screwed up till the Ashaman showed up.

 

Moreover, using the power to fight the Shaido in defense of the Tower A.S. at the same time Perrin is (with your help) attacking the Tower A.S. is rather convoluted logic even for A.S. Not that given time they could not have convinced themselves of the logic but it was much simpler and faster to just get into the melee and start zapping people. In addition, a large portion of the A.S. anger can be chalked up to the realization that, even with all they did and all the moral gymnastics they had to perform, Rand was saved by his own efforts and those of the Ashaman.