crescents and stars, oh my!

[RobertAlexWillis]

I hope the feature book will prove me right, but if that didn't happens I'll admit my mistake, though I won't let you slap my face

 

LOL ... the fact that you're willing to listen to another possibility without someone having to slap your face is proof that you don't need it.  Rand isn't, which is why he does.  But then, I said I'd drop it, didn't I?  -Cadsuane reaches out of the book and smacks me for not keeping my word-    :P

[aevogt]

I always liked Min's advice to Rand about imagining her as the stern, older Aunt.  The one that brooks no nonsense. 

 

Look at it from Cadsuane's Point of view.  Rand is just a punk kid who happened to come into some power he is almost up to controlling.  He has also been extremely lucky.  She wants to make him capable of fully controlling his power to make him more effective.

 

He needs her help but, because we know that no one in this tale effectively communicates, she must trick him a little in order for him to take her advice.  That fact that he even listens to her at all after his treatment by the Tower is a miracle. 

 

[wvlr]

she must trick him a little in order for him to take her advice. 

 

Why must she trick him and treat him like shit for him to take her advice?

 

The way that I read it - in KoD especially - is that despite Mins viewing Rand is seriously considering dumping Caddy.

 

Verin does not treat him like shit to get him to listen to her advice.

Min does not treat him like shit to get him to listen to her advice.

Nyaviene does not treat him like shit to get him to listen to her advice.

Lan does not treat him like shit to get him to listen to his advice.

Bashere does not treat him like shit to get him to listen to his advice.

The Aril do not treat him like shit to get him to listen to their advice.

 

It seems to me that every time he got good advice from these people he tended to take it.

 

Should I go on?    There are LOTS more!    Yes!    Does Rand sometimes make decisions against the fore mentioned peoples advice - yes when he has good reason.

 

Rand does have his Fits and Temper Tantrums - but for the most part he always listens to good advice - even when it is not given to him by Caddy's "oh so wonderful" abusive manner.

 

It seems to me that recently more of his "Fits" are augmented by Caddy's treatment - even when her advice is good.

 

I don't see that him being a hairs breath away from kicking her out does any good for his sanity.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Cadsuane is not there just to advise him, she is there to teach him some manners!!(and proably something else)  Rand has no manners at all!! If Cadsuane fails in teaching him, the world after TG will not matter at all. Rand will never send her away, he trust Min to much to do that.  I still fail to see why people dislike how she is teachig Rand, she is treating him like the child he is acting like.  Its not right for anyone to act like that, that alone the frigging Dragon Reborn.

 

Nynaeve gives advice? Not sure I remember Rand ever realy listening to Verins advice,  As far as Bashere,Lan and the Aiel The only advice Rand realy follows from them is in war like things. Cadsuane is teaching him to be the ruler he needs to be.

 

As far as Min goes, give me a break, Rand loves her and she in turn loves him. Rand listens to her, because of her viewings, which have proven to never fail. Rand may act like a child but he is not a total fool.

[stoper]

As far as Bashere,Lan and the Aiel The only advice Rand realy follows from them is in war like things.

The advice is advice. About war, about manners, about his dressing style, no matter.

And can you tell me what exactly she achieve with her method? Did she stop him using belefire when she slap him? Did she teach him manners?

Just once, when he accept rebels terms at Tear and I still think that was because of Lews Therin's intervention and his arguments "Else no one will trust you".

Or at least this cooled down the situation that Cadsuane provoked.

[Ahaz Flagg]

It takes time to teach a horse to turn right and left, Rand is the same!!  He has been on big power trip for over two years, it will take time for Cadsuane to knock some manners back into him. Cadsuane is doing great now.  Now do not get me wrong, I do not like Cadsuane either, I just think she is what Rand needs. But, there are only two females in the whole series I like, Min and Aviendha. 

 

All the Aes Sedai are realy annoying, Cadsuane is right at the top of the list with Egwene and Elayne. If it does not bother Min, who loves Rand heart and soul. Why does it bother you so much how Cadsuane treats him?

[wvlr]

He has been on big power trip for over two years, it will take time for Cadsuane to knock some manners back into him.

 

No Rand is not on some power trip.    He is Crazy!    Insane from the taint.    You don't cure insanity by treating a person like Caddy is, that is morlikely to send them more over the edge.    He does not WANT power.    He is only doing the job that he has been Unwillingly given.    Would he give it up?     You bet!    In a heartbeat if given a viable option!    That is not the same as a Power Freak.    A power freak would never give up anything and always wants more.    (See Forsaken)    Rand/Mat/Perrin all would be more than happy to go back to Two Rivers and live quiet lives.    (Well Mat would want a good gambeling place nearby)

 

Does Rand need to be a perfect ruler NO he is going to die at TG - so why does he have to be some perfect ruler?    He does not!    As far as that goes - where is he ruling now?   nowhere, every territory that he brought to the cause he has turned over to Local Rulers who do the ruling for him.    He is only a Ruler of Rulers - Rulers that he has chosen.    All he needs is to have their loyalty until TG and he does.    Each and every Ruler that he has chosen, knows that they must follow him until after TG.    (Exception being Taim and he is not a ruler Per se.    But he does prove that Rand can make bad choices - against Logain's advice which he listened to - then decided against.)   

[stoper]

Why does it bother you so much how Cadsuane treats him?

Because I like him.

I'll give you an example with another series "A Song of Ice and Fire". In Martin's books I like Jon and mostly I like his chapters and his story. But if he die I can't say that the book will end.

When we speak about WoT the first thing that same to my mind is Rand. Since the first chapter of the first book for me Rand is WoT, WoT is Rand. (I just express my own opinion, I don't want you to agree with me.) And when Rand is foolish, The WoT is foolish. When I dislike Rand, I dislike The WoT.

My point is that maybe I didn't hate Cadsuane more than I'm dissapointed from Rand. She treat him like shit, only because he allow it. And maybe I admit that he deserve it.

He's ne longer the man he was in the first books.

I agree he made a mistakes, but that's his mistakes. I don't want always someone else to save his ass, always someone else to clean the mess he left behind.

You are cool with the idea for main character being puppet and someone to manipulate him as long as they win at TGD, I'm not.

If he can't rise from the ashes by his own, he better die.

I want strong Rand, not strong Cadsuane or any other crazy witch.

[BKVMC]

Cadsuane is  solidly behind rand what she does is for HIS benefit not hers i firmly believe that . the problem is  in randland  in this age women  dont know how to deal with men  differently than  how they deal with them now. even in the minds of the male characters they  *expect*  the women of randland to treat them like they  do its quite a  twisted age  in regards to how the sexes view their roles and how they deal with each other :)

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

[iDoes Rand need to be a perfect ruler NO he is going to die at TG - so why does he have to be some perfect ruler?    He does not!    As far as that goes - where is he ruling now?  nowhere, every territory that he brought to the cause he has turned over to Local Rulers who do the ruling for him.    He is only a Ruler of Rulers - Rulers that he has chosen.    All he needs is to have their loyalty until TG and he does.    Each and every Ruler that he has chosen, knows that they must follow him until after TG. ][/i]

 

First, whether Rand survives TG is an open question, the prophecies are rather cryptic onm this detail.  So Cadsuanne would be justifiably concerned about the type of person Rand is turning into. A very powerful male channeler who has had to force non-channelers kicking and screaming to do the right thing before TG and who mistrusts all Aes Sadae ( he kind of trusts Elayne, grudingly trusts Nyneave and has grown unsure of Egwene-- and these three are the only ones he truly ever trusted) faced with even the pre-TG cooperation breaking down might be a rather unpleasant and dictotorial person.  Moreover, while you see Rand as insane I disagree he is nuerotic and justifiably paranoid but has shown very few indications that he is actually insane.

[Ahaz Flagg]

He has been on big power trip for over two years, it will take time for Cadsuane to knock some manners back into him.

 

No Rand is not on some power trip.    He is Crazy!    Insane from the taint. 

 

I beg to disagree,  has Min pointed out to Rand.  If you were insane you would not be worried about it.  As far as Rand being on a power trip, ummm  I will quote Rand, this is when he went to meet the Sea Folk.  "Than its good enough for The Dragon Reborn".  That whole chapter and the prvious one are nothing but Rand being on a power Trip. I hate Egwene, but in this she is spot on!! Rand's head has gotten to big for his britches!! Cadsuane is doing just what she needs to do.  And I will guanantee you, he will thank her for the lessons he is learnig now.

[aevogt]

I am just Starting TEoTW for my upteenth reread and something occurs to me in the opening chapter.

 

Rand doesn't have a mother figure.  Kari al'Thor died when he was a toddler, at best.  The closest thing he has to a mother is Marin al'Vere fussing over him.  The rest of the women in Emonds Field are a lot more interested in seeing Tam "decently" remarried and being a little pushy about it.

 

This says a lot about his psychology.  For his first 18 yearas, Rand has not had to listen to a woman, only Tam.  Now, for the past two years, he's been forced to.  Moraine, the Amyrlin Seat, the Wise Ones, all pestering him that he's too stupid to make his own decisions without the guidance of a woman, even though he's never needed it before.

 

The backlash was inevitible, even without the missteps of the Tower embassy.

 

What Cadsuane is doing is letting him make his own decisions but she is also making sure he knows that just because he's the Dragon Reborn, there's no need to be rude.

 

Let's face it, she's 15 times as old as he is and while age doesn't necessarily denote wisdom, a little respect won't harm him.

 

While one of her POV scenes does seem to indicate that she it trying to manipulate him, that manipulation is solely to help him.  Since Rand doesn't have the ability to trust her, simply because of what other Aes Sedai have done to him, that subtle manipulation is necessary so she can help him.

 

 

[stoper]

While one of her POV scenes does seem to indicate that she it trying to manipulate him, that manipulation is solely to help him.  Since Rand doesn't have the ability to trust her, simply because of what other Aes Sedai have done to him, that subtle manipulation is necessary so she can help him.

None of her chapters showed me what she seek with this manipilation, none.

I'll give you an example with Verin, this is from the prologue of TPoD:

She still had a task. Somehow, she must keep young Rand alive until it was time for him to die.

Did she want The DO to defeat him in TGD? Or that's just her interpretation of the prophecy?

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

You can't say for sure. Just like you can't say what Cadsuane really want from Rand.

[Ahaz Flagg]

No we can't say for sure what Cadsuane wants to do, but we can be farily sure that she wants what is good for the world.  If she meant harm to Rand, than there would for sure be a pov from her to state it,all the people who mean harm have been real clear so far.  I find it very unlikly that Robert Jordan would toss a suprise about Cadsuane at this point.

 

Surely you cannot think Cadsuane is a drakfriend, or in any way wants to do permenant harm to Rand. She stated she would not harm him more than needed. She is exactly what she appears to be, some one who wants to teach Rand some things he doesnot know, or chose to forget.

[stoper]

If she meant harm to Rand, than there would for sure be a pov from her to state it,all the people who mean harm have been real clear so far.

I can't agree with this. I don't think we know every darkfriend around Rand.

Look at Dashiva, we didn't know who he was, untill he tried to kill Rand. And he wasn't just darkfriend he was forsaken.

 

Surely you cannot think Cadsuane is a drakfriend, or in any way wants to do permenant harm to Rand. She stated she would not harm him more than needed. She is exactly what she appears to be, some one who wants to teach Rand some things he doesnot know, or chose to forget.

Elaida didn't want to harm him more than needed, as long as he kneel to her, so she can show to the world that WT is stronger than ever and she'll use him to win TGD. May this be good for the world and the light? Why not?

Seanchan didn't want to harm him more than needed (remember, sul'dam and damane wailed when they realized that they almost kill the dragon reborn), as long as he kneel to their empress so they may win TGD with him. May this be good for the world? Why not?

Who else want to use him... Who didn't?

And now you tell me this misterious woman Cadsuane is one of the verry few who want only to help him. Min/Avienda/Elayne - because they love him. Nynaeve because she know him since he's born. Mat/Perin - his best friends. And Cadsuane because... maybe because she's most unselfish AS in the world.

Sorry, but I can't accept this.

 

P.S. Moiraine wrote him:

"Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must' awlays be watchful for them. Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin. We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is a difficult habit to brak, as I have learned while, dancing to your song. You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did."

and I prefer to count on her.

[Vambram]

Well, if Cadsuane had any real desire to do harm to Rand or do harm toward's Rand's goals, and the stuff he has done; she has already had very very many opportunities to do so. But, she has not done that, stoper, so personally? I think that the paranoia towards Cadsuane is way off-base.

[stoper]

Well, if Cadsuane had any real desire to do harm to Rand or do harm toward's Rand's goals, and the stuff he has done; she has already had very very many opportunities to do so. But, she has not done that, stoper, so personally? I think that the paranoia towards Cadsuane is way off-base.

Once again - I'm not saying she's darkfriend or she want to hurt/kill him. I'm just saying she want to use him (manipulate him) for his own goals.

And I give you examples for other people who didn't want to hurt him, though they want to use him. And I just don't like this.

That's all.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Dashiva? even Rand had an inkling he was not what he seemed.  Let me rephrase what i stated, any person who has had a pov, we know where they stand. With the exeception of maybe Verin, although I think she is what she seems.

 

Elidia is an idiot, she is looking out for herself period!! The seanchan are going on what they beleive to be prophecy.  A prophecy Twisted by Ishmael, in order to maybe get Rand away from TG.

 

I think you are grasping at straws, and trying to make Cadsuane something she is not. And while I agree that we do not know all of the Freinds of the Dark. However, Robert Jordan has done very good on all the minor players,  there are a few who we do not have povs from, Bashere being one who stands out and Wierimon.  

 

But on a whole we know where most of the people who are near Rand stand, to think that out of the blue suddenly Cadsuane is going to be the wicked witch of the west, well come on!! If Cadsuane is up to no good, we Would know it for sure.  And Min, who is near her all the time with all those many visions would have seen something. The fact that Min trust her should be enough for anyone to see Cadsuane is looking out for Rand.

[wvlr]

He has been on big power trip for over two years, it will take time for Cadsuane to knock some manners back into him.

 

No Rand is not on some power trip.    He is Crazy!    Insane from the taint. 

 

I beg to disagree,  has Min pointed out to Rand.  If you were insane you would not be worried about it.  As far as Rand being on a power trip, ummm  I will quote Rand, this is when he went to meet the Sea Folk.  "Than its good enough for The Dragon Reborn".  That whole chapter and the prvious one are nothing but Rand being on a power Trip. I hate Egwene, but in this she is spot on!! Rand's head has gotten to big for his britches!! Cadsuane is doing just what she needs to do.  And I will guanantee you, he will thank her for the lessons he is learnig now.

 

If you don't think that Rand is insane at this point in the series then   a. I am not sure that you are reading the same series that I am.    And b.  What more does he have to do for you to see it?

 

 

I do want to clarify that my previous statement was far too simpelistic.   While he is clearly insane (at least in my eyes if not your's) he is handling it ,so far, pretty well.    Unfortunately, it is only one of many problems that he has.

 

1.  He is also dealing with excruciating pain 24/7 from his tatoos, his Balerizon wound and from his Fain wound.  

 

I don't know how much you know about incidental pain - like when my wife bumps her toe, you don't want to disturb her for 15 to 30 minutes afterward or you WILL get your head handed back to you on a platter.   That is only relatively momentary pain.   Then I know people who have a different kind of pain - it is continuous from the moment they get out of bed in the morning and frequently lasts well into the night.   From what I know of them it is hard to associate with other people because the many little eratating things tend to bother you much more than they should - causing them to loose their temper much more frequently and easily.

 

2.  Then on top of that, what was Rand, a sheephearder/farmer, he was not trained from birth to handle these responsibilities/political intregues/international relations and all.   He is having to learn it all on his own and in a very short time.

 

3.  This task has been dumped on him by the Creator/Pattern/fate, whatever, it is not like he went looking for the job like Logain did.    And even then - he did not really want it.

 

4.  Rand knows that the Forsaken are loose and TG is coming like a freight Train and is really frusterated that 90% of the world is either oblivious to the threat or too tied up in their own little power struggles to pay attention to what (he feels) really needs to be done.

 

5.  So what is wrong with him throwing around the "Dragon Reborn" name a little in order to try to drum up some support for his cause.   He is mearly using one of the few tools that he has (his DR name) in order to point everyone towards TG.

 

Did he even want to go to the Sea Folk - he ignored then for quite a while as being needed for his primary mission - winning TG.    He read the prophacies and they were not mentioned, therefiore un-needed for him to win TG.    If it is not needed for TG - he mostly does not care, because he is not doing this to gain power, he is doing it to save the world and he knows that no one else can do it.      No he had to be persuaded to even bother with the Sea Folk.   And it took quite a lot of persuation.

 

So no I do not see him as being on a power quest.   Does he throw his power around occasionally - sure, but it is mostly for the sole purpose of getting the job done.

 

 

 

Tell me what advice he has refused to listened to, that was not preceeded by Caddy's abuse?    In KoD he said no to Logain about Taim but that was only after listening to him for quite a while and after Logain kept pestering him on and on about the issue.   Was it a bad decision on Rand's part  -  Sure but he did listen.

 

 

 

 

So does Caddy's Obnoxious Pestering somehow cure the root causes for his problems?   Well I don't see it curing his "pain" or his insanity or his feelings that he is carrying the whole world to TG on his tired soulders.   Does he need better manners - probably but I don't see his manners being all that bad considering what he is going through.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Does he need better manners - probably but I don't see his manners being all that bad considering what he is going through.

 

What Cadsuane terms as "manners" is a basic respect for other humans.

 

Allow me to quote another very telling passage.  This one from KoD, ch 21, just before the incident in the Stone that we've discussed.

 

"I'm fighting a war," he [Rand] told her harshly.  The nausea had his temper on edge.  That was part of the reason he was harsh.  "The fewer people who obey, the more chance I'll lose, and if I lose, everybody loses.  If I could make everyone obey, I would."  There were far too many who did not obey as it was, or obeyed in their own way.  Why in the Light would Min feel pity?

 

Cadsuane nodded.  "As I thought," she murmured, half to herself.  And what was that supposed to mean?

 

Notice the bolded sentence in particular.  Rand is right on the very verge of becoming an absolute tyrant ... someone who would, incidentally, be almost like the Dark One.  It is possible to become as vile in opposing the Shadow as the Shadow itself (see Shadar Logoth), and Rand is on that path.  And he doesn't even realize it.  Remember, Aridhol's slogan/motto was "The victory of the Light is all." 

 

He doesn't understand why Min pities him, or what Cadsuane is saying.  But he needs to understand, or the world will burn.  The only thing he got right in that diatribe is that if he fails, the world burns.  Uniting people behind him is not the same as forcing everyone to obey him, and he doesn't understand that.  Which is why, a few minutes later in the Stone, when he reacts the way he does, Cadsuane acts the way she does.  Rand needs to learn that "leader" is not the same as "absolute ruler of everyone's thoughts and actions".  Not only because it would be bad for the world, but in more practical terms, because it simply won't work!

 

Look ... you brought up several points about the stress Rand is under and the problems he has to deal with.  You're absolutely right!  The only problem is, that doesn't really matter.  The fact that he's under a lot of pressure doesn't mean the nations will follow him any more readily when he acts like a tyrant.  Is his life hard?  Hell, yes.  Has he done an amazing job, under awful circumstances?  Absolutely.  Can Cadsuane afford to let up, just because he's having a tough time?  Nope.  Is it fair?  Nope.  That's life ... and Rand's life especially.

 

Moiraine was constantly needling him ... it wasn't until a day or two before her "death" that she could bring herself to say "You will do well".  It wouldn't surprise me if something similar were the last thing off Cadsaune's lips, as well.  Just because she is constantly pointing out what he needs to change and improve doesn't mean that she doesn't know what he's doing well.

[Tyrell]

Did he even want to go to the Sea Folk - he ignored then for quite a while as being needed for his primary mission - winning TG. He read the prophacies and they were not mentioned, therefiore un-needed for him to win TG. If it is not needed for TG - he mostly does not care, because he is not doing this to gain power, he is doing it to save the world and he knows that no one else can do it. No he had to be persuaded to even bother with the Sea Folk. And it took quite a lot of persuation.

 

Im kinda wondering why you bought the sea folk up, but you should realise by now that aside from a few very very very rare individuals there is absolutely noone who will care if the entire sea folk race is anhilated on page 1 of A Memory Of Light.

[stoper]

Maybe you're right, but I'll give you another example with two Sailmistresses - Harine and Zaida.

Look what happened with Zaida, how she acted with Nynaeve and Elayne (with all AS and the Kin), where is she now, what kind of woman she is.

Look what happened with Haraine, how Cadsuane treat her and where is she now.

The sad truth is that in the world of WoT if you are not arrogant/hard enough, you'll find someone who is and he'll crush you.

You don't like Rand's way, I think that's the only way.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Rand Insane? please what series are reading?  He is on edge for sure, he is close to a nervous break down.  But insane? I am not sure where you an others pull this out, he has another man in his head, its not a voice. he has the world on his his shoulders, facing what he sees as a certian death, he has people who would rather think of power than saving the world.

 

The term my friend is stress, not insane at all. I have read the series numerous times, and the only time I thought he was close to insane was in Book 2. Other than that he is a person who is doing what he thinks he must do!!  Certinly if he was insane, he would excibit such focus to do what he must.

[trakand_01]

Rand doesn't have a mother figure.  Kari al'Thor died when he was a toddler, at best.  The closest thing he has to a mother is Marin al'Vere fussing over him.  The rest of the women in Emonds Field are a lot more interested in seeing Tam "decently" remarried and being a little pushy about it.

 

This says a lot about his psychology.  For his first 18 yearas, Rand has not had to listen to a woman, only Tam.  Now, for the past two years, he's been forced to.  Moraine, the Amyrlin Seat, the Wise Ones, all pestering him that he's too stupid to make his own decisions without the guidance of a woman, even though he's never needed it before.

 

I think the purpose of bringing Nynaeve into the story was to suggest that she had been a maternal force in Rand's upbringing; it certainly sounds as though she did a lot of 'disciplining' whilst the boys were growing up (although she's all of about 7 years older than them) however the irony here is that she's one of the most immature women in the story herself.

[Stooge]

Has everyone forgotten the scene between Cadsuane and Sorilea? That to me answers a lot of the questions being asked. Prevention of a Tyrant leading the whole world to destruction. I believe her aim is to help him see the value of life. what is the saying? "Strong endures while hard shatters."  Seems to me that Rand is becoming Elaida, so wrapped up in his own schemes. he has lost who he is. How can he save the world when he doesn't even know who he is.  He must mature as a person, weighing the sacrifice of life against the benefits gained in TG.