Aviendha, Elayne, Min. wtf.

[WasteofTime]

So I picked up the Eye of the World a few weeks ago just for something to read. As a lotr fan I immediately noticed the similarities between the two but I still thoroughly enjoyed it. The thing just oozed potential to become a great story. I went right back out and picked up books 2-10, read through them like wildfire up to Winters Heart and hit a brick wall half way into it.

 

I literally threw the book down in disgust at the chapter ("a lily in winter" I think it was called) where Aviendha, Elayne and Min finally confront Rand. I mean wtf, seriously. I guess part of the blame should go to myself for tricking myself into thinking that the situation would be resolved in some feasible way. I assumed Jordan had some endgame regarding this love-square. The warning signs were there throughout the entire story but I just assumed it was misdirection or character development. Turns out it was just some dudes fantasy.

 

The relationship between Rand and Elayne for starters is just absolute nonsense. There is no basis for a relationship and whatever feelings they have for each other are just laughable. No foundation there. Its just madness and with her being one of the most annoying characters throughout the entire series, her opinions expressed throughout lengthy pages of the books which she takes up a high percentage of, both toward Rand and the other characters just contribute to bringing the world of tWoT down around her.

 

Min. Just lol. Is it even love? I mean, I have read many threads where people state that they actually like Min and it just blows my mind. Reading chapters from her point of view or even with just her in the room is absolute torture for me as it is with Elayne. There is no depth between her and Rand as far as I can see. She just seems to ignore the worst about him which takes a lot of effort at this point and all she seems interested in is... well you know - that. ( There are kids here so I will be discreet)

 

Spoiler alert for A Crown of Swords.For example, I think it was in A Crown of Swords, after he returns to Cairhien from the battle with Seanchan. He tells Min he killed Adley or something ( one of the Asha'man dudes - an ally) and all she says is "Lets go into the bedchamber". (no argument here but wtf).

 

The last she saw of him for I don't know how many pages was in The Dragon Reborn at which time his character was much less developed. He was basically a different person then. The general feeling you get from both Min and Elayne is that they don't love Rand, just in love with the idea of him. As the Dragon Reborn. IMO there is just no depth there.

 

Aviendha, what can I say. Her character is gold. Pure Gold. I have seen people say that Min gets the least coverage in chapters told from her point of view but without a doubt it has to be Aviendha. If there was less chapters with Min and Elayne ( make that no chapters plzthx) and more with Aviendha it would be worth reading. I guess I was hoping in some way that Jordan would develop Rands character in someway that he ended up with Aviendha after miraculously realising that he didn't truly love Elayne or Min. A fools hope I know. But if ever a character was made to be the deserving love interest of the main male character of a story it would be Aviendha. I don't even need to give reasons for that. Her relationship with Rand, before Elayne and Min sunk claws in ( lol ), in the The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven just worked. It had depth. You name it, it had it.

 

I'm not sure I understand what Jordan was aiming for with this whole love-square thing. I really don't understand it. It does no favours for the story. How three women can love a guy and still be friends at the same time without any hair pulling of any kind I fail to understand. ( And dont gimme this explanation that they just accept the fact that all three love him so they may aswell take as much of him each as they can get. Thats just ridiculous. That is no explanation. Just nonsense.) I just thought that he had an endgame. I wouldn't have really minded if Rand ended up with Elayne or Min ( even though they are stupid b******) as long it was only one of them. I think I could possibly have digested that as long as some proper character maturity was employed. And then there is the pitfall surrounding these type of intimate relationships involving more than 2 people in stories in regards to the readers view of them. And this is just my general opinion, there is always going to be the Aviendha fanbase, the Elayne fanbase (wtf lol) and the Min fanbase ( i could grudgingly accept it) of whom love either 1 or 2 of those characters and hate the other/s. That diverse aspect within the story creates so many pitfalls for whatever type of reader. Reader alienation. Dangerous turf. Like myself for example, there is noway in hell I would read past that chapter in Winters Heart. I have literally stopped reading tWoT just because I cannot digest this love-square. Rand degenerated into a moping b**** the closer it came to the inevitable confrontation with the three women and now that the foursome has been established it just solidifies all the crap it brought to the table in the first place. Elaynes and Mins views now hold considerable weight cause they have a claim so to speak. Aviendha's continued presence around Elayne and away from Rand is an added nail in the coffin I might add. Their claws have been sunk in. (rofl. Forgive me but the image I get of this situation is Rand standing their one minute then out of nowhere three cats jump at him claws sinking into his face while he starts flailing about screaming his lungs off).   

 

I think anyone who has any objectivity would see the spiraling drop in quality of the story since The Lord of Chaos. Its a pity in my opinion, it could have been such a great story if their was some planning. Some sort of endgame. The outcome speaks for itself. Waste of Time. Waste of Money. Probably not the best place to express that view but hey, its a forum right. Would enjoy reading some feedback. Oh yeah, and before I am reminded I know this is an already thoroughly covered subject but I just had to get some closure and get this off my chest.

 

P.S-> Mat rocks.

 

P.P.S-> Please take into account my lack of knowledge beyond "Winter's Heart:Chapter-A Lily in Winter"

 

Later.

[trakand_01]

Firstly I think your attitude could be better. I appreciate we are not here to slate each other and you are very welcome to your own opinion but there is no need for such an aggressive post.

 

Secondly I think you should re-read the books several times and be certain of your opinions before you write such an exhaustive post on what is for a large majority of the people on this forum, a key element of the story.

 

To answer, or at least comment on your observations yes, Elayne is annoying at times and yes, she takes up a large portion of the story but she has to - she is important and i understand and appreciate you have not read further than the 'confrontation' so i will spoil nothing for you. Her relationship with Rand was quick, to say the least but RJ didnt really have time to spend developing their affections and going through the motions of a relationship. It is key to the story however that a relationship ensues, and so it does.

 

With Min and Avi, RJ had much longer to develop their relationships, as both travelled / lived with him for quite a while. Min and Rand actually have quite a deep relationship and she is key to keeping  him 'human'. when he returns and tells her he has killed one of his asha'man, she actually sympathises with him, but due to his state of mind (very bleak) and desire to keep him human, she distracts him - the most important thing she can do.

 

Aviendha yes is great, I cant say much about her.

 

If monogamous relationships are the thing you want, perhaps I could recommend The Sword of Truth series to you, i think you'll find similarities to RJ's work there also.

 

And please dont flame me, we're not here to argue.

[WasteofTime]

Firstly Trakand01(lol) before you say "dont tase me, bro", I mean "please dont flame me" please don't attack the certainties of my expressed views on the work because that my friend is flaming.

 

All I am saying is tWoT could have benefited greatly from a less devious outlook of inter-personal relationships. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

[trakand_01]

I guess so  ;)

 

I wasnt particularly arguing with your point (as I said - you are quite entitled to your opinion) but the way in which you made it; it was a very aggressive post and not very pleasant to read.

 

I also think the relationship is important to show the accuracy of Min's viewings (and how they can affect her also - sharing her man, Coleavere etc) and to give something to keep the girls hooked  ;D

 

Keep reading, its a good series.

[Luckers]

I think what Trakand was saying was that the aggressive mode of speech with which you make your points inclines an aggressive response which ultimately isn't interesting to either position.

 

Ultimately a post spoken in the certainty of your convictions, especially in terms of judgement, comes across with an overt degree of aggression. Especially in comments about how you had fooled yourself into believing it would be 'feasible', with such acriminations of how you should be blamed and so forth.

 

You must see how such a position implies an inherent degree of stupidity on any who disagree with your position, therefore naturally putting their backs up. Ultimately, i find that disruptive to the very idea of these forums. But thats me.

 

In terms of the actual topic. I don't really agree that it is 'some dude fantasy' and whilst i too find Elayne irritating i disagree with your idea of basis, as well as most of your points about Min. I'd say more, but it would hardly be feasible. Correct?

[The Lost One]

I didn't see your post as overly agressive.  I just saw someone who really got invovled in the story and didn't like the way one area was going.  I think getting that invovled in the story is a good thing, but I wouldn't let that one part stop you from finishing.

 

Unfortunately, books 9 and 10 are my least favorites, but KODs comes back strong.  I too saw a decline in the storyline, but not really until book 8-9.  But again, keep going because KOD is really worth it.  That is just my opion on that.

 

I too did not see a real development in the relationship between Elyane and Rand, but I did see it with Min and Rand and really like Min.  Elyane is probably one of my least favorite chars.  What you have to consider about Min is her viewings.  She did not want to be in love with Rand and definately did NOT want to share him, but she saw it as unavoidalbe because she saw it in a viewing.  I think she is very similar to Avi in that sense.  Avi saw it in her trip to become a WiseOne and tried to avoid falling in love with Rand as well.  I think at some point, they just both gave up fighting.  

 

It seems kindof crazy to me that he has three women and they are all going to "make it work", AND I don't think it is realistically possible, BUT that is just part of the story.  I accepted it more when we started to see more of the Aiel and their customs of sister wives.  

 

I would suggest you just try not to let it divert you from finishing and the other aspects of the story.  You are going to miss some really good stuff if you stop now!  

 

 

 

[elmis]

LOL, you just posted everything I was about to say The Lost One. The Elyane and Rand relationship is weak at best, a few weeks of kissing, then a year passes with two other girls in the mix, I really don't see the love being that deep.

 

I also think that particular relationship is one the weaker sides with the books.

 

As to the original post, it's just a harmless rant - there should be some slack when it comes to blowing of some steam. It's not like there was any personal attacks.

[Cadsuane]

Heh, I actually thought his post was sort of amusing. I found it be more a display of his personal incredulity about the rather contrived set of relationships than it was aggressive. People have expressed much more aggressive opinions about Elayne, Nynaeve, or women in general than he has done here, with less reason and less care to explain their thought processes.

 

I understand what you're saying, WoT (haha, btw), but I'll second the suggestion to continue on to KoD. It's one of the better books, and really moves the plot along again after it slowed up through 10. Try and remember that there is SO much more to the series than Rand and his women, and maybe it won't be such a distraction.  :)

[Lune]

I do agree that I found the whole love square (some call it a "Love Y") a bit incredulous, and I did wonder if it was some sort of "Anita Blake" syndrome. I think I sit on the opposite end of the spectrum though, I don't think of how terrible Elayne, Aviendha or Min might be for whatever reason, I'm actually thinking "Why would any woman love Rand?" >_>

 

Certainly when he was a bumbling shepherd, he had his innocent charms, but later down the line he becomes quite frankly, anything but attractive personality wise. I can understand Aviendha or Min still loving him, to an extent, but not Elayne. Both of the former have been by Rand's side during significant periods of his life. Elayne on the other hand seems to be clinging to a shadow of his previous self.

[Tyrell]

(some call it a "Love Y")

 

Isn't it more a love Trident?

 

But I'll go on to agree that you shouldn't get crazy about one lil thing like that. CoT is alittle.. monotonous but KoD is great and most of WH (you're in WH right now yea?) is good stuff.

 

Myself, on rereads now, I skim all the bits where Rand is being emo, maybe you can skim all the bits about "the harem"?

 

[Lune]

No it's a "Y"

 

See...

 

Elayne           Aviendha
      \         /
       \       /
        \     /
         \   /
         Rand
           |
           |
           |
           |
          Min

[Tyrell]

Oh I see!

 

I was thinking Rand was on the bottom of the Y rather than in the middle, and invisioning this :

 

Avi   Elayne  Min
|      |      |
|      |      |
|      |      |
  - - - - - - - 
        |
        | 
        |
        |
        | 
      Rand

 

But having Rand in the middle makes much more sense

[Vallorean]

When reading a story I try not push my social mores onto any such situations as that would be pointless and mostly frustrating.  Take the story for what it is, a story and don't sweat the rest.  I understand that oftentimes we try to place ourselves in the position of one character or the other for whatever immersive-ness we require to fully enjoy the story.  However, it some of the happenings among people in stories defy logic at times and some situations may be difficult to grasp.  But if you think there are no such love triangles, squares, Y's, think of old time orthodox Mormons.  Happened all the time then.

[Wayhey]

In our world there are some cultures that accept the practice of multiple lovers and spouses.  We may consider ourselves advanced, but a lot of our views on marriage and relationships hinge on ideas of ownership, which is hardly enlightened.

 

In Rand's situation, the three women all love him simply because they are fated to.  Fate is a huge theme in the WoT.  Min doesn't fight it because in her vast experience with fate she accepts that fighting is pointless.  Aviendha tries to resist for Elaine's sake (even though her people do have multiple partnerships) but this avails her nothing and only drives her crazy.  Elaine doesn't fight it but she really does like Min and Aviendha and can't help but love Rand anyway.  Rand never encourages any of them or makes any promises, nor is he anything but nice to them.  And it's not as if he's not a remarkable person without accomplishment or physical appeal either...

[WasteofTime]

Some of you are missing the point of what I'm trying to say or at least mis-interpreting. I do realize as Wayhey pointed out that some cultures "accept the practice of multiple lovers and spouses" and I fully acknowledge and accept that. But my issue with the whole love square/Y is how it came to be. How the various relationships were built in the story. Not just one way, the three womens feelings for Rand, but Rands for them.

 

In The Dragon Reborn its clear Min possesses some feelings for Rand but the general feeling I get from Rand is that he looks at her like shes an older sister or a friend. This seems consistant in his absense from her for several books. He thinks about her sometimes but Jordan doesn't elaborate at all. Nothing serious. Nothing meaningful in the sense its portrayed in now. And then out of the blue when Min arrives in Caemlyn he is all over her in an instant, continued throughout A Crown of Swords and The Path of Daggers. Its just a little too fixed for my taste. Yeah, ok, maybe Min can be forgiven with the viewing telling her she would love him but the viewing didn't say that he would return the feelings. Throughout the course of the books when she is around him he expresses physical attraction for her and emphasizes certain qualities of her which make him feel at ease around her but the same things could be said about a "girl friend". Why he loves her is never fully explained or translated very well. It just all seems too artificial.

 

Its part of the reason I enjoy Aviendha so much because their relationship was developed very nicely. She starts out by hating him and it just takes off from there. Is there any better way to start a relationship in stories? heh. Possibly part of the reason why the construction of that relationship worked so well was because it was executed first before anything happened in any way with Min.

 

We all know about Elayne so I'm not even going to go there.

 

Overall my problems are with the emotional maturity of the characters in question and the basis and foundation of the relationships both ways between Rand and each of the three women. Hey, if the thing was done differently who knows, I might have loved the fact that he had three women at once who were cool with it but in its current condition I can't be O.K with it. I'm not a total prude even though I sound like one.

 

In response to the immersive comment by Vallorean. I either commit to a story one hundred percent or not at all. I do try and maintain some level of objectivity but in the end I am going to ask myself what this story means to me personally and what I can take away from it. Otherwise whats the point?

 

Here I am going on about feelings and sh** (lol). Thats kind of my point. The love square/Y has been dragged out much too long over such a long period it has sucked the life out of areas of the story which could have been developed instead of listening to an immature character like Elayne make some semi-intelligent comment on what a wool-head Rand is or read about Min's foot tapping. Thats a serious page turner.

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

I have always just taken the relationships as a predestend ment to be thing. Min saw it in his aura, and Knew it ment 3 women would fall in love with him weather they wanted to or not. Which is what happened, Elayne said she knew she was in love with him 5 minuites after she met him, Love at first sight. Min knew it was going to happen and just let it. And Avi just fell in love with him, even though she tried to resist it after she saw it in the rings she walked through. Plus you can give way to the length of his relationships with them because of him being taverin.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[Wayhey]

Well Rand doesn't really have a lot of time to ponder relationships, so they just kind of fall on him.  He says he's not sure how he feels about them, especially since he does like 3 different girls, but they sure are soft and purdy!  He has several good excuses for not exploring his own feelings.  Aside from his high-stress job, he also knows he's going to going mad and will die at TG, so he just would rather not think about paring down the women just yet.

 

Rand does have all those dreams of all three women getting sexy for him, don't forget.  Imagine there were 3 people you liked, and you had those dreams every night, then all 3 (seperately) seduced you with no strings.  If you weren't attached, you might not say no to any of them, especially if you knew you had a date with the end of the world shortly.

[WasteofTime]

If thats the case Wayhey what do the words "I love you" mean coming from Rands mouth? What does that say about his character? Enter Randy Al'Thor?  ::)

[elmis]

I don't buy the whole love at first sight (speaking about the Elyane part of the relationship here), not when they've been away for a year+, and one of them has done almost a 180 on his whole personality.

 

I agree with you WoT, about the Avi part, when I first read that I hoped it would be those two until the end. When it comes to Min though.. I don't know. It's not that hard to fall for someone that you start out liking as a good friend, who's also hawt, and on top of all that thinks you're the man. ;)

[DemandredFO]

Rand is Ta'veren; Min is keeping him sane, Avi was chosen by her people to mate with the Car'a'carn and she fell in love with him and Elayne, well... enough said

[WasteofTime]

Rand is Ta'veren; Min is keeping him sane, Avi was chosen by her people to mate with the Car'a'carn and she fell in love with him and Elayne, well... enough said

 

wtf? :-[

 

I don't buy the whole love at first sight (speaking about the Elyane part of the relationship here), not when they've been away for a year+, and one of them has done almost a 180 on his whole personality.

 

I agree with you WoT, about the Avi part, when I first read that I hoped it would be those two until the end. When it comes to Min though.. I don't know. It's not that hard to fall for someone that you start out liking as a good friend, who's also hawt, and on top of all that thinks you're the man. ;)

 

Agree with you up until the part about Min. IMO it would have been better if Jordan just matured Rands character so he kicked Elayne and Min into touch. Min can keep the guy sane without sleeping with him. Sometimes less is more. And since the relationship with Aviendha and Rand was established before Min's ( that fluff with Elayne doesn't count) Jordan had the opportunity right there to not bother starting up this whole love square thing which I think he should have done. There are so many plots and sub-plots in tWoT that there just was not enough room for this love-square to develop properly. IMO the love square/Y takes up too much storyline in the current books but not enough in the beginning, so it wasn't developed correctly in the beginning of the series. So the action and many plots are not developed or are non-existent because of this love square/Y in the current books when the action and plots were developed nicely in the earlier books without this mountain of incredibly unbelievable feelings and emotions flying around in the square/Y.   

 

I'm overwhelmed with the responses, people actually saying they can tolerate the love square/Y. Wish I could, but I can't. For me it overshadows the rest of the story. I was tolerating it up until that chapter in the hopes it would end in a (oh here comes that dreaded word) feasible way.

 

IMO, less inter-personal relationships more killing trollocs/forsaken. Let the story breath!

 

Keep the responses coming.  :) 8)

 

Later.

 

 

[Xoal]

Dude, I didn't think your post was over the top at all.  You stated what you think and on many levels I agree with you completely.  I do not like Elayne at all.  She is an inmature child and her stupidity should have sealed her doom long ago. 

 

As for Min, I think that since she did not want anything too do with Rand from the outset, and is with him because her viewings ultimately foretold their relationship, she will ultimately betray him.  She will see his actions having a negative impact and turn on him.  The story just wont tolerate that many concubines for one Dragon.

[Majsju]

Keep in mind that all of them are teenagers, with everything that brings when it comes to emotions. Of course it could have been elaborated a little bit more, but if I made a list of everything I would have liked to see more elaborated, every single book would be at least twice as long.

 

I find it a bit odd that this relation is the one that sparks such a reaction. If there is one I would poke at, it's Lan and Nynaeve, especially Lan. A grown man who has dedicated his life to a very specific cause, strongly connected to his own life, falls head over heels in love in a woman he's spent quite little time with.

 

But I buy it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Keep in mind that all of them are teenagers, with everything that brings when it comes to emotions.

 

Well ... one or two out of four ain't bad.

 

As of Winter's Heart:

 

Rand - 21 (I know lots of women will say that's still a teen-ager for men, but ...)

 

Min - 24-25, depending on birthday

 

Elayne - 18

 

Aviendha - 19-20, depending on birthday

 

 

[Feral]

I agree that Rand and Elayne don't seem right but I also think Aviendha isn't right either. There just doesn't seem to be any depth to her character atm so it's hard to judge. I mean the only thing I really know about her is that she's quick to violence and would rather use a physical weapon than the Power. Oh, and that she likes Elayne which doesn't say much for her in my book. As for Min, I really like her and I think she's the best for Rand. He seems to depend on her far more than on the others.