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Aviendha, Elayne, Min. wtf.


WasteofTime
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Take 'teenagers' in the sense of emotional growth then.

 

Rand spent years certain he would marry Egwene, and that was that.

Aviendha spent most of her life married to the spear.

Min had her anti-girlygirl issues.

Elayne spent most of her life learning how to be a ruler, and waiting to be shipped off to the White Tower.

 

We can't be sure about Min, but it does seem like Rands "betrothal" to Egwene was the closest any of them had come to anything even resembling what we would call dating, so it is not very surprising that they can fall in love as easily as they do.

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I agree that Rand and Elayne don't seem right but I also think Aviendha isn't right either. There just doesn't seem to be any depth to her character atm so it's hard to judge. I mean the only thing I really know about her is that she's quick to violence and would rather use a physical weapon than the Power. Oh, and that she likes Elayne which doesn't say much for her in my book. As for Min, I really like her and I think she's the best for Rand. He seems to depend on her far more than on the others.

 

True, Aviendha doesn't get much coverage but IMO the coverage she does get puts her way over the other two . That truly annoys me in the books though, Jordan seems to treat Aviendha like shes a side order or something, part of the furniture. She's mayonnaise ffs! and shes the best character of the three IMO. Scope over quality? The convenience of the situation is absolutely hilarious tbh. Rand somehow manages to have them each one at a time. First Elayne in Tear, then Aviendha. She leaves just in time to make room for Min. Don't say thats because he is ta'veren or I'll cough up a lung laughing. Think about it. If Aviendha stayed with Rand instead of becoming Elaynes b**** ( I agree with you there Feral, Elaynes sh*t does start to rub off on Aviendha) and Min arrived in Caemlyn at that time, all hell would have broke loose without Elayne there to buffer the situation, treating Aviendha like her servant. God I wish Aviendha would have just beat down on her from the beginning. And if Rand loved Aviendha, Elayne and Min equally as he claims then why didn't he send Min away like he did the other two? ( rhetorical question btw) The artificiality of it is hilarious. Without Min with him he would most likely have avoided the confrontation and the three of them would be left hanging. What I would have given for that to happen. I'd glady sacrifice all three just to give the story some room. Over the course of like 3 books it has gone from being an action packed adventure to "Dawson's Creek".

 

I think part of the reason why some people like one character over another is the mental image and general first impressions they associate with that character. So it was always going to be Aviendha for me. Elayne is a natural repellent and as for Min, the mental image I had of her character was of Hilary Swank in "Boys Don't Cry". Still sends shivers down my spine. Doesn't help either that I never truly accepted her as a possible candidate for an intimate relationship with Rand. Reasons explained in previous posts.

 

Why couldn't Lews Therin be the rebirth of Rand Al'Thor instead of the other way around. Lews Therin is the sh*t. Rand could have gone crazy and killed his three women in the Age of Legends, that would have solved the situation nicely.

 

"Rand Al'Thor inside Lews Therin's head: Aviendha, Elayne, Min my loves!"

 

Set Lews Therin up with his Ilyena in the third age and everything would have been O.K. More than O.K. Would have been awesome. That way the only time we would have to listen to Rand degenerate over Aviendha, Elayne and Min would be in madman's rants inside Lews Therins head, forced to flee when Lews Therin asks "Are you real?". Because lets face it, is Rand Al'Thor really real?

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I understand your sentiments completely. My hate for the love Y is surpassed only by my hate for Rand himself. No, wait. I lied. I might hate Elayne more than Rand.

 

But for me at least, that hasn't been enough to make me stop reading. I began reading five years ago, and I can't read thousands of pages worth of story and not finish. I am too emotionally invested in other characters like Mat, Egwene, Perrin, Nyneave, Thom, Lan, and oh so many others not to continue. But that's my personal opinion.

 

I really wanted a Rand-Avi relationship. I never could understand why Rand and Min couldn't just be friends.  I was sure that Min's viewing would not be what is seemed at first. There are many different kinds of love, and I thought Min would realize that her connection with Rand is more of a brother/sister connection than a romantic one. Then, perhaps, he would find an almost mother figure, and I wouldn't have to deal with the fact that Rand had three lovers at all. But alas, all of my theories are for naught, because Rand ended up with three lovers anyway. *sigh*

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I have to say that I found the orginal post of this thread to be just fine, not overly aggresive or anything.  One of the reasons I love Wheel of Time is because of the emotions that I feel while reading. I have grown to really like some things, and to really despise others, and there is alot that falls in the middle of the love/hate spectrum.

 

I would encourage you to continue reading WasteofTime, simply because: A. Despite the Dragons harem of the Triangle, it does get better, and B. you have read almost 9,000 pages of it already so why stop now?  I understand how you feel cause I almost stopped reading in Winters Heart as well, when Elayne made the comment "Rand should just kneel to Egwene, he is just to woolheaded to see it...." or some such horse manure as that. I was pi...*cough*, very irritated at that comment and almost stopped reading, but I realized that I don't have to like Elayne and her comments to enjoy the series, so I kept reading, and I have to say that KoD is awesome, even if CoT is a little slow.

 

 

I would encourage you to keep reading, the parts about Rand, and Mat especially, are cool enough that you can forget about love tridents/Y/ triangles, and stupid comments (my hatred) and enjoy the series.

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True, Aviendha doesn't get much coverage but IMO the coverage she does get puts her way over the other two . That truly annoys me in the books though, Jordan seems to treat Aviendha like shes a side order or something, part of the furniture. She's mayonnaise ffs! and shes the best character of the three IMO. Scope over quality? The convenience of the situation is absolutely hilarious tbh. Rand somehow manages to have them each one at a time. First Elayne in Tear, then Aviendha. She leaves just in time to make room for Min. Don't say thats because he is ta'veren or I'll cough up a lung laughing. Think about it. If Aviendha stayed with Rand instead of becoming Elaynes b**** ( I agree with you there Feral, Elaynes sh*t does start to rub off on Aviendha) and Min arrived in Caemlyn at that time, all hell would have broke loose without Elayne there to buffer the situation, treating Aviendha like her servant. God I wish Aviendha would have just beat down on her from the beginning. And if Rand loved Aviendha, Elayne and Min equally as he claims then why didn't he send Min away like he did the other two? ( rhetorical question btw) The artificiality of it is hilarious. Without Min with him he would most likely have avoided the confrontation and the three of them would be left hanging. What I would have given for that to happen. I'd glady sacrifice all three just to give the story some room. Over the course of like 3 books it has gone from being an action packed adventure to "Dawson's Creek".

 

 

The emphasis is mine.

 

The thing is, all these three women have different personalities. They are not going to react to Rand in the same way, and vice-versa. It's not just pure hazard or delusion that Min is seen by many here as keeping or capable of keeping Rand human. Do you honestly believe that Elayne's or Aviendha's continued presence beside Rand is going to amount to the same as Min being there?

 

If Jordan had wanted to, he could have found a way to twist the story and keep Aviendha there instead of Min (or both of them together), but then again, we would have a different Rand al'Thor ( a worse one, if you ask me).

 

Aviendha and Elayne lack that something I fail to put a name on, something that makes Rand feel comfortable. At least I've not seen them display it. Min has it.

 

Not to mention that she's useful to him in other ways.

 

 

The amount of Rand bashing and perhaps even hatred towards the central hero of the series  in this thread  makes me wonder if some of  y'all are reading the same WOT that I am. wtf, over?  ???

 

Can't help but wonder the same thing.

 

The answer I give to that kind of bashing is to ask them to put themselves into Rand's shoes. Of course they would do it better than him! :D

 

I know I couldn't, Narg would have probably dissected me in a heartbeat.

 

 

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I hope I can make sense of what I want to say....I am going to try to put this the best way I can........it has probably been said before.

 

Regardless of your opinions on any of the characters....the fact that people are getting so emotionally invested in the story, just shows what a great writer Jordan is.  Whether you absolutely hate or love a character, shows that Jordan did a such a good job in really bringing out their personality. 

 

Wouldn't the books be much worse if we were just indifferent to some of these characters?

 

If something that happens in the books really just pisses you off!, makes you want to laugh, makes you want to scream!, makes you want to cry….or even makes you want to throw the book across the room…..that is a good thing!!!  It means you are really getting involved in the story and the writing is sucking you in to the world so completely, sometimes you just can’t stand it!!!!  That’s good writing!!!….far beyond good.

 

I am starting to ramble….but do you get my drift?

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oh yes absolutely, i agree. I have like nothing more than a good ol' debate on the books. Its amazing how much we know/think/understand about the books, indeed in some places how we've filled in the 'gaps' - we've each done it seperately but more often than not have come out with the same impressions. Excellent writing.

 

I simply dont like reading posts which contain words which require st*rring out, its unneccessary.

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I hope I can make sense of what I want to say....I am going to try to put this the best way I can........it has probably been said before.

 

Regardless of your opinions on any of the characters....the fact that people are getting so emotionally invested in the story, just shows what a great writer Jordan is.  Whether you absolutely hate or love a character, shows that Jordan did a such a good job in really bringing out their personality. 

 

Wouldn't the books be much worse if we were just indifferent to some of these characters?

 

If something that happens in the books really just pisses you off!, makes you want to laugh, makes you want to scream!, makes you want to cry….or even makes you want to throw the book across the room…..that is a good thing!!!  It means you are really getting involved in the story and the writing is sucking you in to the world so completely, sometimes you just can’t stand it!!!!  That’s good writing!!!….far beyond good.

 

I am starting to ramble….but do you get my drift?

 

You are thinking singularly about the characters in particular. And you are absolutely right, Jordan has created some of the most annoying characters I have ever seen in one story before. But what effect do they begin to have on the story when you are continuously reading nonsense from those characters point of view. And there are so many of those characters with those similar aspects to their personalities. Not just the major characters but the minor also, these days Aes Sedai seem to be rolling off an assembly line. When did they stop being individuals and become virtually all the same. Its one thing to purposefully create a character you want the audience to hate but another to create ambiguous characters like those in the love square/Y. So let me ask the obvious question. Did Jordan want us to hate Elayne? If so, what sort of story telling is that!? It pushes you over the edge. Well it pushed me over the edge anyway. What was he aiming for? Whatever it was it should have concluded a long time ago. As far as I am concerned he missed the target in Winter's Heart, if there ever was a target....

 

I simply dont like reading posts which contain words which require st*rring out, its unneccessary.

 

Would you prefer I openly swear? Anyway, it has been several posts since I found the need to include obscenities in my posts. If you need an explanation for that...its cause the first post I made was only hours after I had read that chapter "A Lily in Winter" and I was still pissed off about wasting so much time and money on the books. And truthfully, pissed off at Jordan for taking this direction in tWoT. You will notice that in my following posts (the days that followed) there are less and less, even no, uncouth verbalizations. (Started to get over it). Its not like I swore every second or third word anyway so I don't see what your problem is. I think you are just angry cause of my point of view. You don't like me methodically picking apart aspects of your beloved dogma even though you say you are open to discussion. Take a chill pill and don't tase me bro.  :'(

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I simply dont like reading posts which contain words which require st*rring out, its unneccessary.

I think you are just angry cause of my point of view. You don't like me methodically picking apart aspects of your beloved dogma even though you say you are open to discussion. Take a chill pill and don't tase me bro.  :'(

 

You are wrong, but seeing as we are here to find answers and discuss theories, not get into slanging matches and argue our own personal viewpoints, I think perhaps we should simply leave it as we all have our own opinions, and no-one has the right to insist they are right.

 

Enjoy the rest of the series, it really is worth persevering and re-reading - the experience becomes richer every time you read.

 

Enjoy, take care,

 

Trakand01

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I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Trakand here, without even considering the actual argument-cum-discussion going on; if you need to shout and / or swear to get your side of the debate/argument/whatever accross, then you loose already. I don't care if your arguement is right by definition even - if you're trying to tell me that a triangle has three sides - if you need to resort to CAPITOL LETTERS or swear words then you're wrong.

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I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Trakand here, without even considering the actual argument-cum-discussion going on; if you need to shout and / or swear to get your side of the debate/argument/whatever accross, then you loose already. I don't care if your arguement is right by definition even - if you're trying to tell me that a triangle has three sides - if you need to resort to CAPITOL LETTERS or swear words then you're wrong.

 

A triangle DOES have three sides though.

 

Right is right.

 

Some people put too much into emphasis and punctuation and miss the point that's being made.

 

Um, people cuss and raise their voice. That's part of living in reality I guess. Point taken that it can be irritating, but it doesn't make a correct statement wrong, nor does it invalidate someone's feelings if they are a true representation of what that person feels.

 

That said, I never had a problem accepting these relationships in a fantasy novel. I mean, I can accept the one power and the idea of inescapable, proactive fate, but I can't buy into a four way relationship?

 

Try watching the series on HBO "Big Love". Same kind of situation, but somehow it's totally entrancing.

 

Elayne really was the first love interest, outside of Egwene, for Rand in The Eye of the World. She protected him from Elaida and her mother when he was caught climbing the palace wall.  In The Shadow Rising, she pines after him most of the time in the Stone.

 

Aviendha swears to help Elayne keep Rand and that is actually the catalyst for Rand's relationship with Aviendha.

 

Min, Rand met before he even set eyes upon Elayne, and she intrigued him if anything. She knew herself to be fated to be with him, so she more than helped it along.

 

 

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I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Trakand here, without even considering the actual argument-cum-discussion going on; if you need to shout and / or swear to get your side of the debate/argument/whatever accross, then you loose already. I don't care if your arguement is right by definition even - if you're trying to tell me that a triangle has three sides - if you need to resort to CAPITOL LETTERS or swear words then you're wrong.

 

Just for the record I never directed any obscenities toward anyone else, I was just expressing myself about the subject at hand I was writing about. I didn't know by doing that I was automatically going to "lose" (whatever thats supposed to mean) just by expressing how I feel about this particular aspect of the story. Tyrell how about reading my posts instead of taking a shot in the dark?

 

You are wrong, but seeing as we are here to find answers and discuss theories, not get into slanging matches and argue our own personal viewpoints, I think perhaps we should simply leave it as we all have our own opinions, and no-one has the right to insist they are right.

 

I never insisted I was right about any of my points. You are obviously referring to my comment below

 

You don't like me methodically picking apart aspects of your beloved dogma even though you say you are open to discussion.

 

which you have obviously mis-interpreted. You are acting like tWoT is not open to interpretation. Aspects of it are very much so open to different interpretations, like the topic we are supposed to be discussing. The love square/Y is going to be viewed differently by everyone who reads it. Every interpretation unique to that individual. There is no black and white. Its too complex for its own good. Thats what I was referring to. I basically stated that I was systematically dissecting the relationship between Aviendha, Elayne, Min and Rand (i.e. aspects) based upon my interpretation. If you need any evidence to suggest that this love square/Y  is equivocal just re-read this thread my friend. If you want to know why I said "your beloved dogma", well it was because I got the feeling you were one of those people who dislikes people expressing theories which are extraneous. My reasons why: since I started this thread you seem more interested in attacking me than in actually expressing your views on this particular topic which lead me to some assumptions about you. I would like to hear more of your views on this subject but try to read my posts carefully so you don't end up mis-interpreting something, forcing me to respond in kind to clear the matter up but still looking the dick head (oops  :-\). As for you Tyrell, how about you actually read the posts for starters instead of acting like a blind man trying to pick out his favourite porno.

 

Can we stay on topic guys. Am enjoying reading the responses. Thanks a lot. :)

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Tyrell how about reading my posts instead of taking a shot in the dark?

 

I did actually read your posts, but I've gotten to a point where I'm not actually interested in the discussion, I was just making a point that shift key abuse and swearing, especually on a forum where you can take aslong as you like to type your post up nice and civilised make your argument, to me anyway, less valid or atleast less appealing. Why? If I had the choice between reading an eloquently written argument, or even just a politely written one and "**** CAPSLOCK" I'm gonna go with the former not the latter. However, do apologise for seeming like I was aiming directly at you, I was trying to make a broad statement about posts on forums happenning that right or wrong, put me off with "SHIFT KEY" especially, although trying to decypher asterisks is also a turn-off for me, and obviously I failed, so, sorry for seeming like I was directly attacking you, your post, or your argument specifically.

 

Allow me to rephrase "use of CAPSLOCK or swearing in posts makes me, personally, and reduces the sympathy I have for the argument being made".

 

I admit, if the above mentioned discussions took place in real life I wouldn't be making this point, but a real life discussion takes place in real time, this one doesn't.

 

Besides I'm already forced to read this so-called "american english"... ... ... *mutter mutter* *grumble grumble* I doubt I can change that so I need to focus on something else :P

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I don't think there should be any worry about the fate of rands lovers, it'll all come crumbling down when rand decides on a politicle marriage to egwene in an attempt to unify the black and white towers, thus making all current love endevours null and void.:D

 

After all since this is the 'wheel' of time where everything goes around in a circle and repeats blah blah blah, so shall the love life of rand go full circle back to its begining point, the other ladies will be left for some sort of mid-life crisis.

 

Of course this is just rubbish, rand could just go and die leaving them to stew for all time.

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Try watching the series on HBO "Big Love". Same kind of situation, but somehow it's totally entrancing.

 

I'm glad someone brought up a series that also has a love-Y...and how messed up that situation is!!

 

This gets to the heart of why I can't embrace the girls' all being ok with the situation.  In all my exposure to Western polyamorous relationships (not even talking about the patriarchal or religious systems for multiple marriage in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia for which I have only outsider observations), there are a serious amount of self-esteem issues between the women and narcissistic personality issues overarching the relationship.  Women in a  position of equality in citizenship do not embrace sharing their sexual partners.  When the man is in an extreme position of power or authority (I think of celebrities, musicians, and politicians) and has multiple partners - jeez, the multiples are never truly happy.  Even in the cases where the musician (for example) is clearly playing around, the women hanging onto him do not live peacefully without subsuming their personalities and/or self-esteem to the relationship. 

 

True, these women haven't had to confront the reality of sharing Rand - since he so conveniently basically has only one around at a time.  Plus, the one time all three were together with him created the ickiest chapter WOT has - emotions ring false throughout the chapter and the internal gag reflex brought out the frustration in so many readers of this series.  You can read through a series and still be really upset where the author falls on a topic - especially when the main character(s) acts in such an emotionally false way.

 

I just wish Jordan had been willing to let Rand have messy, if serial (for the most part) relationships.  I can understand Rand screwing around and ticking off women who ultimately decide to remain on his side a heck of a lot better than auras and future-portent rings assuring three supposedly independent and strong women that they can become "first sisters" that willingly share their romantic love for one man at the same time as they become each other's closest pals.

 

Harumph.

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Heh, I agree with the points why this wouldn't work out so well with Koboldin, there human beings, particularly human females, and they will get jealous. They would feel they'd have to proove themselves, or feel inadequite, and so many other reasons.

 

And before I get attacked by the female members of the board, I bring up sterotypical women because RJ's story is filled with them. So please, don't hurt me.  :'(

 

Though really, it never bothered me. I can understand how it would bother other people, RJs world is very real, and full of real people, but in the end the WoT are books. Love has always seemed rather odd in books, either to perfect, or to messed up, to quick to form, yadadada. Looks at Salvatore. (potential spoilers for Drizzt fans) Wulfgar comes back, and practicly gives up the girl he was going to marry to someone who isn't even human!

 

Honestly though Waste, it gets better, and that really is as bad as its going to get. Well, AMoL might have something worse, but hey, it isn't out yet. ;) So just keep on reading, your about to come onto one of the kick-donkey (Beats the crap out of astrics.  ;)) scenes in the series.

 

And again to prevent any offense, I add yet another disclaimor paragraph, it was a joke to lighten the mood about this whole don't swear and don't caps thing. Its getting a bit to serious lol.

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Question: I was wondering, can you talk about how your lead character would have not one but three true loves, and how does your wife feel about that?

 

Jordan: Um, when I was much younger, before I met Harriet, I had two girlfriends simultaneously, who arranged my dating schedule between them, who was going to date me on which night. They chipped in together to buy me birthday presents Christmas presents. You know, they just sort of shared me between them, you know. And they had been friends before, and I am not quite sure whether or not they made the decision they were both going to date me or not, on their own, before they first met me, it just came about. But I figured if I could manage two, surely Rand could manage three. Besides there are mythological reasons to have these three women involved with him. As far as my view on this, with Harriet, I have many more than three women, there are so many facets to her personality she quite often makes me dizzy, I am quite satisfied there. About how she feels about this, I suspect you want her answer, I seem to remember her saying to me, you do remember this is fantasy right? And I think it was an accident she was holding a carving knife to me throat, just coincidence, but I am not sure.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/Third-QampA--Sunday/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=6.topic

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For me it's not the polygamy that's the problem (not that I view that part of the story as such a big problem anyway), it's the way Elayne fits into the whole thing that annoys me.

 

It's as if he had a plan for the whole thing in the start, but as the books progressed and the story took on a life of it's own so much 'filler' had been put in that when Elayne and Rand finally met again, it was just weird that they still had so strong feelings for each other. A couple of weeks of kissing vs. over a year of being apart with lots of changes on both their lives.

 

I don't know, it was weird to me anyway, the whole thing felt very forced into the story, rather than being naturally developed.

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Jordan: Um, when I was much younger, before I met Harriet, I had two girlfriends simultaneously, who arranged my dating schedule between them, who was going to date me on which night. They chipped in together to buy me birthday presents Christmas presents. You know, they just sort of shared me between them, you know. And they had been friends before, and I am not quite sure whether or not they made the decision they were both going to date me or not, on their own, before they first met me, it just came about. But I figured if I could manage two, surely Rand could manage three. Besides there are mythological reasons to have these three women involved with him. As far as my view on this, with Harriet, I have many more than three women, there are so many facets to her personality she quite often makes me dizzy, I am quite satisfied there. About how she feels about this, I suspect you want her answer, I seem to remember her saying to me, you do remember this is fantasy right? And I think it was an accident she was holding a carving knife to me throat, just coincidence, but I am not sure.

 

Gag.

 

Uh, yeah, we have the lone male talking about an extinct part of his relationship history.  And what did his ex-girlfriends think of the situation - if it was so great, why didn't it continue?  How is it then he and Harriet didn't have a third and fourth?  (Or, at least an out there in public third...God knows, what goes on behind closed doors) 

 

I think it boils down not to the fact that people are fully capable of polyamorous situations - totally possible and plausible.  What kicks me in the gut as completely preposterous are independent women with socially high standing (no second-class positions for any women in the Y!) readily not only accepting to love the same man, but to also sisterly-love (stretching for the right word here) each other. 

 

And I actually mostly accept that Avi is conditioned to accept polygamy, according to the mythos and cultural structures of the story - though it bugs me as soon as I step out of the story.  If Jordan has the Aiel women in such high standing among their people, then you should see women with multiple males just as frequently as males with multiple females (the multiple males being completely unrepresented). 

 

But, alright, Avi is in with polygamy, according to the strictures of the story.  Min?  Well, she has elements of subsuming her personality to Rand - changing her appearance, having left her life (which admittedly was fairly adrift) to follow him with no apparent goal outside of propping up Rand, believing absolutely in the outcomes of her auras...I can see her sharing a man.

 

But Elayne?  Good grief!  Not only is she an arrogant brat with a bone-deep belief in her manifest destiny and natural ability to rule; she is a virgin before her de-lilying.  As a true personality, she is not set up to be capable of sharing a man.  And this is my reaction before you get to actually looking at the [glow=red,2,300]twoo luv[/glow] between her and Rand. :-\

 

Jordan just didn't set up a believable polyamory situation here - but some readers have a higher tolerance for the  ??? romance ??? than others...I'm of the opinion that Jordan let us down.

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(New here but wanted to give my opinion)

 

I generally don't care about the romanances in books besides the fact they are there. But you have a point even while reading WoT I found that the whole love Y was wierd,crazy and streched out and I really wished RJ had just picked one and been done with it and gone back to fighting. So I skipped most of the rand Y "romance" sections or I would read a paragraph into the PoV and it would tell me if something was going to happen. So if you need to keep going I would do that because in the next couple of books it gets alot better in terms of romances. One of the oddest romances happens but it was just a thrill to read because it made sence compared to most of the other relationships and was just funny to read.

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