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WasteofTime

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  • Birthday 07/24/1987

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  1. The easiest and obvious comparison to this situation is Birgitte. She lived multiple lives, in each life she was essentially a different person due to her experiences etc but when she dies and goes to The World of Dreams she retains the memories of all her past lives inside one consciousness. She is now cast out of The World of Dreams and yet still retains the memories from every life she lived ( even though they are now slowly fading) and she is still yet but one consciousness, one soul. Seems to me like people here are saying that a consciousness can exist without a soul. And while there is absolutely no proof to any of this I just don't find it logical. Two completely different people sharing one soul when there is supposed to be only one in the first place? "Luckers: This is incorrect. It's a different mind and different conciousness, but yes, the same soul. So they arn't Rand's memories, they are Lews Therins. A different facet personality, and distinct." In many fight scenes Rand performs some awesome weave or w/e which he previously didn't know of. Lews Therin ( many of you are saying he is a separate consciousness/being from Rand - so doesnt that technically not make Rand "The Dragon" lol) didn't speak inside his head, he didn't tell him how to do it. Rand just knows from Lews Therin's life, from Lews Therins experiences. "...it was something from Lews Therin's memories..." I believe is the quote from one of those particular fight scenes (Correct me about that if I am wrong. Its something to that effect anyway). The one where he weaves a cocoon around himself to protect himself from the weave Dashiva attacks him with. And if he can access memories like that it contradicts everything everyone is saying about Lews Therin being a separate consciousness sharing one soul. And while yes, Lews Therin does tell him some things, i.e. how to break through a shield, there is no conclusive evidence that it wasn't Rand/Lews speaking to himself. So what you are basically saying is that a personality is a consciousness? IDK, I just can't buy into this "he is the Dragon Reborn but he wasn't Lews Therin." So many contradictions. Rands whole strength in the story, his significance as a the main character, is that he is the rebirth of Lews Therin. And by saying that a separate consciousness can offshoot from that, the consciousness of Lews Therin, only hurts Rands character. We have been told that he is the Dragon. The one and only Dragon and yet here we are with the offshoot? I just can't buy into it. I understand it but can't accept it,lol. How can Lews Therin offshoot from Lews Therin. Vaguely complex. P.S-> What I was kinda hoping for was that all of Lews Therin's memories would have resurfaced in Rand/Lews eventually, so Rand/Lews would have the experience he had in The Age of Legends. With the weaves etc. This probably would have altered his character even more, his outlook and personality. But for me it seemed to be the right way to go (Rand/Lews was already obtaining certain personality traits anyway so why not go all out). So much could have then been extracted from that situation and it would have been a solid conclusion. Could have explored the whole Ilyena thing (which I think was unforgivably neglected in the story) and the impact that would have had on the love Y. mwhahhaa. And while many of you will say that it would not be possible since Lews Therin was insane I disagree. They are only memories, not a consciousness. It would have placed Rand right up there with some of the greatest characters in a story of all time. Lews Therin was the shit! I don't know what Rand is anymore.
  2. I completely agree. Finally, some backup! Thanks. lol.
  3. The only response I can think of is LOL.
  4. If you are talking about real life I'll probably keel over and die from laughing. I don't recall Jordan giving that explanation in the books. My theory is based on what I know from the books of this reincarnation business. As for real life, well, I don't know anyone personally who has lived multiple lives but you seem to have some experience with it? :-\ I'm done taking a piss on these book. Yawn. The story was almost great, but almost doesn't cut it! End of.
  5. Interpretations, interpretations. I have my theory, you all have yours. But none of us know who is right and who is wrong or what way this soul/memories/consciousness/reincarnation thing actually works because Jordan didn't go into too much detail about it. He basically says "This just is, you fill in the blanks". While I think my interpretation follows some logical lines, i.e. memories are not a consciousness, we are all the sum of our experiences but if I was to die tomorrow and be reborn in X number of years I would still be the same man in essence but with just a different outlook and personality due to my experiences. Still only one mind with the memories and experiences just pieces in a puzzle, they are just happenings without the singular consciousness behind it. One soul, one mind, one dragon. But thats just how I look at it. To say I'm wrong in that would be futile as their is no evidence in the books to prove otherwise. I just think that to say memories and experiences are a consciousness is incredible funny and to quote Mr.Tuvok "illogical". "WasteofTime, you said that Lews Therin cannot give Rand his memories because they are Rand's memories. That's not true. As stated, Rand and Lews Therin are different people. They have different memories and different experiences. They are the same soul, but they are different people, if that makes any sense." Lews Therin's personality was different from Al'Thors. They are the same man who lived both lives but were different in both those lives due to his experiences and memories etc but at essence they should be the same mind, same consciousness, same soul! So infact, they are Rands/Lews/w/e you want to call him memories. Beam me up, Scotty!
  6. The whole thing defies logic. I have stated my reasons why. My first post is trying to make sense of the current situation but my following posts state why that situation should never have come to pass in the first place. Your explanation sounds to me like a compromise. There is no conclusive evidence either way. Open to interpretation. "Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor." That proves nothing. I don't understand how Lews Therin could be "torn" from Lews Therin so to speak. It makes no sense to me. And yes Tyrell, thanks for stating the obvious, I know its a story. Does anybody see what I am saying????! lol. :-X
  7. Lews Therin | | | | | V Rand Al'Thor------->Lews Therin | | | | V That diagram above is basically what you are saying about the situation when it should be more like this. Lews Therin | | | | | V Rand Al'Thor Rand is Lews Therin reborn. So how can Lews Therin become a separate consciousness from his reborn self inside his own head? "but it would make sense that a reborn soul, that's tied to the wheel and has lived countlessly over history, has some connection to past lives. Usually a reborn soul can't access any memories of it's previous lives, it's only because of the attack from Ishy that Rand can." I agree with that much, it would make some sense that he would remember things from his past life. "Lews Therin can come forward and take control of Rand's body, can give Rand his memories," Disagree. Lews Therin doesn't give Rand (a.k.a himself) memories, Rand remembers. "They are parts of the same soul, and now they have two consciouses." None of what you are saying makes much sense. Its not logical. Break it down. Lews Therin was born and died. He was born again with no memories of his former life as Rand Al'Thor. The slate has been basically wiped clean with him. Now you are saying that a separate consciousness resurfaces, Lews Therin, even though Lews Therin was already reborn as Rand Al'Thor with no memories of his former life. I could buy into the whole idea of him regaining memories of his former life but this is just madness. Rand is Lews Therin reborn. So how can Lews Therin become a separate consciousness from his reborn self inside his own head? Lews Therin was born, he lived, he died. Was reborn as Rand Al'Thor with no memories of his former life. One Soul. One Consciousness. One Dragon. Anything else makes little or no sense.
  8. K, confusion. You're saying that Lews Therin surfaced as a separate consciousness. So answer me this. Did Rand Al'Thor (his essence) actually live Lews Therin's life? So if Rand really is his rebirth then how did Lews Therin go outside that and be looking in at Rand from the outside. Are they two or one? And if they are two then how were they ever one? I can understand memories surfacing but a consciousness that was supposed to be Rand Al'Thor? You are essentially saying that one soul in tWoT can produce mutliple consciouses, I am pretty certain I would have remembered that if Jordan wrote about it. Two Dragons for the price of one. We have The Dragon on the left and The Dragon Reborn on the right, tight squeeze in that tiny little Aiel of...whoever he is(rofl). You say Lews Therin is separate from Rand now, but how can that be so when Rand accesses Lews Therin's memories in the heat of battle, remembering weaves etc. How can he do that if they are as you say, two separate people? Hmm? ???
  9. Rand Al'Thor is the rebirth of Lews Therin. Lews and Rand are in essence the same person. That much is explained clearly in the books. The part I don't understand is Lews Therin talking in Rands head. Is Rand actually talking to himself or is Jordan saying that Lews Therin is a separate entity. I don't understand that. It seems to me like Rand is talking with Lews Therin, with another man, even though he is supposed to be Lews Therin and that can't be possible anyway because Rand and Lews are the same person ( even though it is portrayed in that way in the books). You can't have a conversation with memories. So it can only be two things as far as I can see, either Rand/Lews is talking to himself or Jordan contradicts himself by treating Lews Therin like he is a separate person from Rand Al'Thor. The latter is supported by the fact that Rand treats Lews Therin like he is another man, he addresses him like an acquaintance (Jordan never explicitly explained the whole deal and so it is left open to certain levels of interpretation). Which really doesn't help his image as "The Dragon". Either he is The Dragon or he isn't. And yeah, we all know he is The Dragon because of the prophecies etc etc but it doesn't help his characters solidity when there is a contradiction going on constantly inside his head. Even though I find Rand's conversations with Lews Therin hilarious, for the most part because Lews Therin is just awesome and Rand/Lews is essentially talking to himself (or at least should be talking to himself :S). Some people are going to say its the memories of Lews Therin's life resurfacing in Rands head and while ,yes, that does happen (i.e. Lews Therin's personality traits coming out, humming while checking out a beautiful woman etc) he seems to be consciously aware of the world around him at the time including Rand (who he is supposed to be I might add), even if it is in bursts, therefore suggesting conscious thought instead of a memory. So does the guy have split personality disorder or whats going on? I can't seem to decide whether Jordan is telling us that Rand/Lews has split personality disorder or whether Lews Therin is indeed an individual from Rand. That is never truly cleared up as far as I know. (I've only read as far as "Winter's Heart Chapter: A Lily in Winter") Didn't Min have some viewing in which she saw Rand with another guy standing opposite him or something like that and one of them vanishes, "dies" was the exact terminology used by Min. If that was indeed Rand and that was or is going to be Lews Therin opposite him and one of them "dies", thats just going to reinforce the enigma of Rand Al'Thor/Lews Therin. Because if Randy (oops I meant Rand) Al'Thor really is "The Dragon" and Lews Therin really is "The Dragon" how can one of them die if they are in essence the same man. Unless she is referring to Lews Therin's memories but how can that be so if Lews seems to be consciously aware of the world around him at times...he isn't just a bundle of memories but an actual consciousness ( he is Rand, Rand is him...I think). I couldn't buy into that explanation, that the memories/Lews Therin can die forever (I believe was also what Min said) if Lews Therin is Rand. Or it could be Rand that dies, but he is Lews Therin, so how can there be two when there is only supposed to be one. Take into account that this was Rands interpretation of the viewing when Min told him about it, that either he or Lews Therin (confusion!!!) was going to die. ??? There can be only one. ::) Its kinda like Birgitte's situation, she remembers her past lives but she is a single individual, she doesn't have multiple personality disorder going on or anything. Even though she isn't supposed to remember her past lives once the Wheel spun her out again she seems to manage fine with no internal conflicts or struggles even though she was bitch slapped out of The World of Dreams. It seems to me that the Rand/Lews situation was just another "bridge of convenience" within the story, seems to be a common theme these days, since Lews is mad Rand just seems to automatically get precedence of the situation. (i.e. control of the mute button.) That really annoys me in the story though. Annoyances seem to be a common theme throughout tWoT and whether or not that is good writing is debatable. For example, at some stage Min shows the "stupid bitch" side of her personality. I'm not exactly sure at which part of the story this is in but it takes place in Cairhien I believe in the throne room, sometime before the "confrontation" *shivers* with the three ladies takes place. Something happens with Rand anyway, in regards to Lews Therin/himself. He states something about Lews Therin/himself or says Lews Therin agrees (He agrees with himself...got to love it). Something to that effect anyway. Mumbles it idk. And Min thinks in her head something to the effect of "He doesn't actually believe he can hear Lews Therin's voice inside his head does he?". *laughs*. You know what I mean by all this. So, so, annoying. Many of the characters don't treat Rand like he is Lews Therin. Well he is or is supposed to be anyway. I'm going to take this opportunity to reinforce my argument in my other thread, "Aviendha, Elayne, Min. wtf", and state that these three women are in love with a man who know nothing about the other man/personality in the depths of Rands mind. Its a perfect example of the madness of the love Y. Of how they don't even know who Rand Al'Thor truly is. Great example of the relationships under-development and neglect. Or is it even a love Y anymore? *laughs* Lews Therin makes that five. So what does that make it now, a love pentagon. Nah it isn't really though since Lews Therin is Rand (I think). But does two different lifetimes count as one man or two. Since we are but the sum of our experiences yet he has two lifetimes worth and both independent of the other. Ah screw it, get the fuck out Lews Therin, Rand is one man too many. ( :o . lmao). Add it to the list of things open to interpretation and to ponder. :-* *wipes tears of hilarity from eyes* At this point I am even confusing myself. I would have just liked some clarification or development after nine thousand pages of text on this situation. Is Rand/Lews talking to himself within the confines of his memories from both lives, i.e. Rand/Lews talking to himself from Rands perspective/memories/experiences to Lews' perspective/memories/experiences and vice versa. If so that essentially means that he has a split personality. Or, is Lews Therin a separate man inside Rands head, which we know isn't possible since Rand is the rebirth of Lews Therin ( in essence the same guy). This perception seems supported by the Min's viewing, if it turned out to be about Rand/Lews facing each other and one of them dies ( I never found out, have stopped reading). It can't possibly be memories conversing (obviously) and since we are just the sum of our experiences the most plausible conclusion is that Rand is talking to himself. Essentially has a split personality. But even at that it isn't at all conclusive, even though it is the only plausible theory I can find, the only one that kinda seems to fit, because if it was a split personality thing going on and Lews Therin's consciousness had completely surfaced long enough to express some insane delight, then wouldn't you think that his lifetime of memories and experiences would surface too. Jordan seems to treat Rand like he has precedence even though he is essentially Lews "damn" Therin. And if it was a split personality ( I can't see any other way without Rand not being Lews Therin) why doesn't Rand/Lews go crazy or start Breaking the World again or some crazy shit when Lews Therin starts talking. The guy is supposed to be mad right? I do believe this is later addressed in some following book where Lews Therin seizes the source and weaves kick-ass Age of Legend battle weaves or w/e when trollocs surround a barn somewhere. ( I read some spoilers :-[) Then he doesn't want to let go of the source. Also references throughout many of the earlier books where Rand has to fight Lews Therin from taking hold of the source. And while, yes, these incidents do bring substance to Lews Therin's character(past life/experiences etc), most of the time the guy reminds me of Microsoft Sam. Just a hollow voice. Its a very one sided split personality situation. I would have preferred that if Rand/Lews was going to be talking to himself that Lews did get some major character development (Even though the guy is mad...lol. But then Rand/Lews does seem to manifest personality traits that belonged to Lews Therin, humming/thumbing his earlobe etc). The situation confuses the hell out of me. Still enjoyable, though I would have liked it if the situation brought more clarity to the central character of the story than less. Complexity and scope are common techniques used in tWoT but looking at the story objectively, the way the story has been told has left too many areas unfinished. Too many questions unanswered. Too many characters under-developed. Too many characters period. I have only touched on two topics on this forum so far and both topics are completely open to interpretation. Elements of them left unclear or not whole. To give Jordan his due he can really get those mental juices flowing but tWoT is just too big to be told. Many have said that and for myself I agree. What is going to be twelve books could have been told in seven or eight. The story would have been more enjoyable if more of the characters were developed/matured and the story moved along with things actually happening. With tWoT it seemed to me that Jordan had struck gold but just decided not to bother with mining...lol. That sums it up for me. This aspect of the story and so many goddam others in tWoT just serve to scramble my brains. I could sit staring into space for hours on end just muddling it all over in my head. 8) Gnothi Seauton. Later.
  10. Just for the record I never directed any obscenities toward anyone else, I was just expressing myself about the subject at hand I was writing about. I didn't know by doing that I was automatically going to "lose" (whatever thats supposed to mean) just by expressing how I feel about this particular aspect of the story. Tyrell how about reading my posts instead of taking a shot in the dark? I never insisted I was right about any of my points. You are obviously referring to my comment below which you have obviously mis-interpreted. You are acting like tWoT is not open to interpretation. Aspects of it are very much so open to different interpretations, like the topic we are supposed to be discussing. The love square/Y is going to be viewed differently by everyone who reads it. Every interpretation unique to that individual. There is no black and white. Its too complex for its own good. Thats what I was referring to. I basically stated that I was systematically dissecting the relationship between Aviendha, Elayne, Min and Rand (i.e. aspects) based upon my interpretation. If you need any evidence to suggest that this love square/Y is equivocal just re-read this thread my friend. If you want to know why I said "your beloved dogma", well it was because I got the feeling you were one of those people who dislikes people expressing theories which are extraneous. My reasons why: since I started this thread you seem more interested in attacking me than in actually expressing your views on this particular topic which lead me to some assumptions about you. I would like to hear more of your views on this subject but try to read my posts carefully so you don't end up mis-interpreting something, forcing me to respond in kind to clear the matter up but still looking the dick head (oops :-\). As for you Tyrell, how about you actually read the posts for starters instead of acting like a blind man trying to pick out his favourite porno. Can we stay on topic guys. Am enjoying reading the responses. Thanks a lot. :)
  11. You are thinking singularly about the characters in particular. And you are absolutely right, Jordan has created some of the most annoying characters I have ever seen in one story before. But what effect do they begin to have on the story when you are continuously reading nonsense from those characters point of view. And there are so many of those characters with those similar aspects to their personalities. Not just the major characters but the minor also, these days Aes Sedai seem to be rolling off an assembly line. When did they stop being individuals and become virtually all the same. Its one thing to purposefully create a character you want the audience to hate but another to create ambiguous characters like those in the love square/Y. So let me ask the obvious question. Did Jordan want us to hate Elayne? If so, what sort of story telling is that!? It pushes you over the edge. Well it pushed me over the edge anyway. What was he aiming for? Whatever it was it should have concluded a long time ago. As far as I am concerned he missed the target in Winter's Heart, if there ever was a target.... Would you prefer I openly swear? Anyway, it has been several posts since I found the need to include obscenities in my posts. If you need an explanation for that...its cause the first post I made was only hours after I had read that chapter "A Lily in Winter" and I was still pissed off about wasting so much time and money on the books. And truthfully, pissed off at Jordan for taking this direction in tWoT. You will notice that in my following posts (the days that followed) there are less and less, even no, uncouth verbalizations. (Started to get over it). Its not like I swore every second or third word anyway so I don't see what your problem is. I think you are just angry cause of my point of view. You don't like me methodically picking apart aspects of your beloved dogma even though you say you are open to discussion. Take a chill pill and don't tase me bro. :'(
  12. True, Aviendha doesn't get much coverage but IMO the coverage she does get puts her way over the other two . That truly annoys me in the books though, Jordan seems to treat Aviendha like shes a side order or something, part of the furniture. She's mayonnaise ffs! and shes the best character of the three IMO. Scope over quality? The convenience of the situation is absolutely hilarious tbh. Rand somehow manages to have them each one at a time. First Elayne in Tear, then Aviendha. She leaves just in time to make room for Min. Don't say thats because he is ta'veren or I'll cough up a lung laughing. Think about it. If Aviendha stayed with Rand instead of becoming Elaynes b**** ( I agree with you there Feral, Elaynes sh*t does start to rub off on Aviendha) and Min arrived in Caemlyn at that time, all hell would have broke loose without Elayne there to buffer the situation, treating Aviendha like her servant. God I wish Aviendha would have just beat down on her from the beginning. And if Rand loved Aviendha, Elayne and Min equally as he claims then why didn't he send Min away like he did the other two? ( rhetorical question btw) The artificiality of it is hilarious. Without Min with him he would most likely have avoided the confrontation and the three of them would be left hanging. What I would have given for that to happen. I'd glady sacrifice all three just to give the story some room. Over the course of like 3 books it has gone from being an action packed adventure to "Dawson's Creek". I think part of the reason why some people like one character over another is the mental image and general first impressions they associate with that character. So it was always going to be Aviendha for me. Elayne is a natural repellent and as for Min, the mental image I had of her character was of Hilary Swank in "Boys Don't Cry". Still sends shivers down my spine. Doesn't help either that I never truly accepted her as a possible candidate for an intimate relationship with Rand. Reasons explained in previous posts. Why couldn't Lews Therin be the rebirth of Rand Al'Thor instead of the other way around. Lews Therin is the sh*t. Rand could have gone crazy and killed his three women in the Age of Legends, that would have solved the situation nicely. "Rand Al'Thor inside Lews Therin's head: Aviendha, Elayne, Min my loves!" Set Lews Therin up with his Ilyena in the third age and everything would have been O.K. More than O.K. Would have been awesome. That way the only time we would have to listen to Rand degenerate over Aviendha, Elayne and Min would be in madman's rants inside Lews Therins head, forced to flee when Lews Therin asks "Are you real?". Because lets face it, is Rand Al'Thor really real?
  13. wtf? :-[ Agree with you up until the part about Min. IMO it would have been better if Jordan just matured Rands character so he kicked Elayne and Min into touch. Min can keep the guy sane without sleeping with him. Sometimes less is more. And since the relationship with Aviendha and Rand was established before Min's ( that fluff with Elayne doesn't count) Jordan had the opportunity right there to not bother starting up this whole love square thing which I think he should have done. There are so many plots and sub-plots in tWoT that there just was not enough room for this love-square to develop properly. IMO the love square/Y takes up too much storyline in the current books but not enough in the beginning, so it wasn't developed correctly in the beginning of the series. So the action and many plots are not developed or are non-existent because of this love square/Y in the current books when the action and plots were developed nicely in the earlier books without this mountain of incredibly unbelievable feelings and emotions flying around in the square/Y. I'm overwhelmed with the responses, people actually saying they can tolerate the love square/Y. Wish I could, but I can't. For me it overshadows the rest of the story. I was tolerating it up until that chapter in the hopes it would end in a (oh here comes that dreaded word) feasible way. IMO, less inter-personal relationships more killing trollocs/forsaken. Let the story breath! Keep the responses coming. :) 8) Later.
  14. If thats the case Wayhey what do the words "I love you" mean coming from Rands mouth? What does that say about his character? Enter Randy Al'Thor? ::)
  15. Some of you are missing the point of what I'm trying to say or at least mis-interpreting. I do realize as Wayhey pointed out that some cultures "accept the practice of multiple lovers and spouses" and I fully acknowledge and accept that. But my issue with the whole love square/Y is how it came to be. How the various relationships were built in the story. Not just one way, the three womens feelings for Rand, but Rands for them. In The Dragon Reborn its clear Min possesses some feelings for Rand but the general feeling I get from Rand is that he looks at her like shes an older sister or a friend. This seems consistant in his absense from her for several books. He thinks about her sometimes but Jordan doesn't elaborate at all. Nothing serious. Nothing meaningful in the sense its portrayed in now. And then out of the blue when Min arrives in Caemlyn he is all over her in an instant, continued throughout A Crown of Swords and The Path of Daggers. Its just a little too fixed for my taste. Yeah, ok, maybe Min can be forgiven with the viewing telling her she would love him but the viewing didn't say that he would return the feelings. Throughout the course of the books when she is around him he expresses physical attraction for her and emphasizes certain qualities of her which make him feel at ease around her but the same things could be said about a "girl friend". Why he loves her is never fully explained or translated very well. It just all seems too artificial. Its part of the reason I enjoy Aviendha so much because their relationship was developed very nicely. She starts out by hating him and it just takes off from there. Is there any better way to start a relationship in stories? heh. Possibly part of the reason why the construction of that relationship worked so well was because it was executed first before anything happened in any way with Min. We all know about Elayne so I'm not even going to go there. Overall my problems are with the emotional maturity of the characters in question and the basis and foundation of the relationships both ways between Rand and each of the three women. Hey, if the thing was done differently who knows, I might have loved the fact that he had three women at once who were cool with it but in its current condition I can't be O.K with it. I'm not a total prude even though I sound like one. In response to the immersive comment by Vallorean. I either commit to a story one hundred percent or not at all. I do try and maintain some level of objectivity but in the end I am going to ask myself what this story means to me personally and what I can take away from it. Otherwise whats the point? Here I am going on about feelings and sh** (lol). Thats kind of my point. The love square/Y has been dragged out much too long over such a long period it has sucked the life out of areas of the story which could have been developed instead of listening to an immature character like Elayne make some semi-intelligent comment on what a wool-head Rand is or read about Min's foot tapping. Thats a serious page turner.
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