Cuendillar and a logical conundrum

[Artos]

Excluding the seals on the dark one's prison, Cuendillar is supposedly the hardest substance in the world and is indestructible. It is also said that any attempt to break it whether by channeling or otherwise only makes it stonger. Does anyone see the question I have regarding this and logic?

If something is indestructible, how can it become... more indestructible...

Clearly I have too much time on my hands. :P

[Angel of Death]

IIRC the seals ARE cuendillar.

 

I also think it says it absorbs the force, not necessarily becoming stronger. Which as you said, is logically impossible.

[zshadez]

No, it's not illogical. Just because something can't be destroyed doesn't mean it can't become any stronger.

[Orange Fescue]

No, it's not illogical. Just because something can't be destroyed doesn't mean it can't become any stronger.

Yes, it can become stronger but how would they know? Before it became stronger, it was indestructible and undamageable. After it became stronger, it was indestructible and undamageable. If it can't be so much as scratched either before or after more of the Power is poured into it, how do they know it's less scratchable after more of the Power is poured into it?

[Sauron]

we could always ask nintendo their stuff must be made of cuendillar i mean have u ever tried to break anything made by them i saw a gameboy that got hit be a grenade and it still works

[CUBAREY]

Not illogical at all.  A given substance seems to be indestructable (all previous attempts have failed). An A.S. (a brown I would think) studying cuendillar would observe that an attempt to destroy it with the power would not only fail but the saidar being used was being obsorbed in the attempt. Thus a basic scierntific understanding would lead the A.S. to comment that not only is cuendillar indestructable must it obsorbs any enery used iun an attempt to destroy it.

[Jarred Darque]

Well,  there is actually a simple test pertaining to basic laws of physics.

 

 

If you put an object onto a device that measures applied force, you should get the weight of the object.

 

Now, if you apply a 10 Neuton force to the object, then hte reading on the measurement device should jump up 10 Neutons.

 

Now, if you replace the object with a peice of cuendillar, and hit it with the 10 Neuton force, you will end up with one of two results assuming that is does not break

A) The measurement device records an increase of 10 Neutons, the cuendillar DID NOT absob any force, and is for the most part the same as it was before.  (There is a possibility of molecular realignment, which could actually increase the strength of the material without it absorbing any energy)

B) the measurement system records a jump in force of LESS THAN 10 Neutons, which points to the cuendillar absorbing some of the applied energy.

 

with the alignment thing, basically, if when formed, the cuendillars molecules are arranged randomly, when struck, it is possible that the molecules, or some of them, would begin to form a crystalized formation.  Depending on the type of molecules...is cuendillar a metal?  I have always thought of it as a ceramic type material...would make it resist fractile damage or ductile damage easier, while weaker at the other. 

 

If the object absorbs the energy, it is possible that the result would be the same as tempering, and the object could come to resist both ductile and fractile damage more readily.

 

However, if the object is already indestructable, whats the point?

[Moiraine_Damodred]

I believe the way it works is that it is not inherently indestructable.  It is just too hard for any type of weapon to harm it.  However, the OP could harm it.  Therefore, tehy made it so that the more OP that was channeled into it to try and break it, the stronger it go, and since there is nothing strogner than OP in Randland, thus it is indestructable.

 

The real question is, can Balefire hurt Cuendillar...

[zshadez]

Nope.

[icspots]

It's also possible that over the years the knowledge about cuendillar changed.  Maybe it started as "nothing can break this", then "it absorbs the one power", to "it becomes stronger when you try to break it".  Perhaps AoL-ers could explain it better but since the only ones left don't know much about making it then perhaps not. ;)

 

Also balefire doesn't hurt cuendillar.  I don't have the books with me but when Nynaeve first fights Moghedien in Tanchico one of Liandrin's 13 starts shooting balefire at them through the black rod Ter'angreal.  It specifically mentions balefire sweeping through display cases and figurines, etc. dropping out of the balefire unharmed.

[cloglord]

Okay, just to throw a wrench in, if cuendillar is indestructable, and the wheel of time is cyclical, how come the pattern isn't cluttered up with misc. cups, bowls, and harbor chains from ages past?

[Artos]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one this had occured to, and I'm always glad to spark the scientific/philosophical debate. Thanks for the fuel for thought...

[elmis]

I always thought it was fancy fantasy writing, as to underscore, how indestructible cuendillar is.

 

cloglord posts a good question why there isn't cuendillar stuff all over the place, I can only assume that there might be, but they're under water (breaking), buried under mountains (breaking) and so forth. The books, claim that as it was made by the one power (during AoL), they only made it for the most important purposes. That should somewhat limit the amount of cuendillar around.

 

Reading that, I always thought that it was hard to make it. That it required lots of power (sa'angreals), linked channelers, saidin & saidar, or whatnot, because just using the power, specially during the AoL, doesn't seem to pose that much of a problem. Personally I was kinda disappointed when the Salidar Aes Sedai found out how to make it, and just started mass producing it without too much difficulty, or any at all. To me, that didn't really fit with the image I had of it.

 

Always seemed like more of a "How are the rebels paying for their army? I know, I'll have them make cuendillar to sell, and to stop ships from entering the harbor. Two birds with one stone." move to me, than anything else.

 

Before you all start in with that only a handful of the Aes Sedai can work the weave with any success, that means that at least hundreds if not thousands could do the same during the AoL, so I don't buy that argument. :)

[lou]

its a Talent. even knowing the weaves may not enable a person to make it successfully.

[Nelal Hurcran]

is cuendillar a metal?  I have always thought of it as a ceramic type material

 

Cuendillar is tupperware.

[Orange Fescue]

Okay, just to throw a wrench in, if cuendillar is indestructable, and the wheel of time is cyclical, how come the pattern isn't cluttered up with misc. cups, bowls, and harbor chains from ages past?

Uhhhhh......magic? Maybe cuendillar decays or turns back into iron but it takes 40,000 years or something. That way, everyone from the AoL and the 3rd age would still think it was indestructible, cuendillar not having been around long enough for any of it to go bad, but it would still have been able to all disappear by the time the AoL came back on the next turn. Or the Randlanders are wrong about the nature of time and it's really linear rather than circular.

[cloglord]

Uhhhhh......magic? Maybe cuendillar decays or turns back into iron but it takes 40,000 years or something. That way, everyone from the AoL and the 3rd age would still think it was indestructible, cuendillar not having been around long enough for any of it to go bad,

 

Well that would answer the original question then wouldn't it.  It is actually only apparently indestructable, and any energy that is directed at it only causes it to decay more slowly.  That's how something can be more indestructable, by not really being indestructable in the first place.  I'm suprised some white ajah sister hasn't figured this out already.

[zshadez]

Just because something is indestructible doesn't logically mean that it can't be farther strengthened.

[Orange Fescue]

 

 

Well that would answer the original question then wouldn't it.  It is actually only apparently indestructable, and any energy that is directed at it only causes it to decay more slowly.  That's how something can be more indestructable, by not really being indestructable in the first place.  I'm suprised some white ajah sister hasn't figured this out already.

How often did aes sedai figure anything out before the wonder girls showed up?

[Lune]

is cuendillar a metal?  I have always thought of it as a ceramic type material

 

Cuendillar is tupperware.

 

That's what I thought. Some sort of polymer in any case. Can you imagine... the seals on the Dark One's prison are actually just decorative frisbees raided from the nearby resort >_>

[Phil_Megrim]

I think Cuendillar is like that goop made out of corn meal and water.....yanno that stuff you played with as a kid where you put it in a bowl and tried to pound the sh** out of it and it'd feel like a slimy stone.....well I think Cuendillar is like that, instead of being indestructible it is instead taking any force acted on it and repelling it.  Prolly when it's first made it's probably as hard as it needs to be and then as any type of force gets acted on it it repells it.  Hence why it was useful sealing up the bore since all that power acted on it probably caused it to become indestructible.  Only the reason why it's weakening is because reality is shifting there to the degree that the quantim physicis keep changing causing a fault within Cuendillar making it seem weak but instead it just weakins the seal placed on it.

 

[Nelal Hurcran]

Can you imagine... the seals on the Dark One's prison are actually just decorative frisbees raided from the nearby resort >_>

 

It must have been a hippie resort then. Where else would you find more than one frisbe with a yin-yang on it?

 

[Davian93]

Cuendillar is iron modified by the Power...not a ceramic polymer.

 

Also, it seems logical that there must be a way to destroy cuendillar other than by the DO's presence.  Perhaps by drawing the power out of it, you can get rid of it?  RJ was very methodical and I'm sure he had a method to this apparent glitch in his universe.

[lou]

who doesnt like tupperware? it is the most useful invention in the universe, moms everywhere were liberated from a life of toil once tupperware came to exist, and hence the leftovers saved for yet another day.

[Moiraine_Damodred]

I think Cuendillar is like that goop made out of corn meal and water.....

Cornbread?! o_O