Aiel

[Guest leebarr]

In KOD the Shado Aiel are on their way back to the waste while the rest are all over because of Rand. It is said earlier in the books that Rand will take them back to what they where  {not a direct quote}. So my question is this what will happen to the two groups of Aiel {Rand's and the Shado}. Who will keep the name Aiel or if they both do how will that affect the out come in the long run.

[Trib4l]

I think it states that a 'remnant of a remnant shall be saved'. But the prophecy of Rhuidean gives the impression that any who do not continue to respect the tradition of going to Rhuidean, or accept their fate and past will be utterly destroyed.

[Davian93]

  Quote

a 'remnant of a remnant shall be saved'. But the prophecy of Rhuidean gives the impression that any who do not continue to respect the tradition of going to Rhuidean, or accept their fate and past will be utterly destroyed.

 

That prophecy culminated when Rand appeared on the slopes outside the city.  However, the Shaido again respect the traditions and have sent a potential clan chief to Rhuidean with Therava's permission.  Perhaps this clan chief will see the truth and the Shiado Aiel will join Rand as the true He Who Comes With the Dawn.  Stranger things have happened with ta'veren.  Perhaps he will lead his people back to the Three-fold land as they want and never leave.  But at this point the Shaido once again are moving back towards traditional Aiel practices and purging themselves of Sevanna's destructive influence.

[Andrew the Great]

I think that the Shaido all get killed either on the way back to the waste or by trollocs once in the waste. The "Remnant of a remnant" will be from Rand's Aiel, and I'm not even gonna try to guess on that one.

[Kadere]

The "He will take you back and destroy you," has to do with taking them back and showing them what they USE to be which then started the bleakness and "destroyed them." It also has to do with the fact that a lot of them died by Perrin and more will die in the Last Battle. I thinks it's kind of all of those things together.

 

The "remnant of a remnant shall be saved part" probably has something to do with Rand's Aiel, though I have always found it interesting that the surviving Shaido are in fact a remnant of a remnant. Of course if that's true then all of Rand's Aiel will die, which I don't believe will happen. It appears that at least Aviendha will survive by Nicola's foretelling. But we haven't gotten to that part of the story yet.

[Davian93]

  Quote

think that the Shaido all get killed either on the way back to the waste or by trollocs once in the waste.

 

Most likely we will never see the finale for the Shaido. The final scene with them in KoD had the feel of a riding off into the sunset.  We might get paragraph or two in the prologue that mentions the Shaido being slaughtered on the way back to the Waste.  I personally think it is a very very long shot that they do anything good for the Light.

[Andrew the Great]

I agree totally. They hate pretty much everyone who is currently fighting for the light, or at least are contemptuous of them. The odds of them doing something for the light are slim to none. Of course, we are talking about RJ here....

[warriordragon]

Perrin may just end up gathering a real army and never let the Shaido make it back to the waste.

[DemandredFO]

Luckers had an interesting take on the 'remanent of a remanent'.  I don't where it is but essentially it was this:  the Aiel are already a remanent of the Dash'ain aiel and no that the shaido have split, the bleakness and deaths they are a remanent of that remanent.  I hope I made that clear and my apologies if I misremembered anything

[CUBAREY]

In connection wtith a "remnant of a remnant". Not all of Rand's Ail have to die to mae prophecy true. As I remember 4/5 of the male Ail now wear the Red Swasi head band-- property of the Dragon.  It could be that their beliefs will drift so far from the regular Ail as to be seen as not being ail anymore.  Also it would seem logical that at least some Ail will give up the sword and go to the way of the leaf. So that like so many other prophecies (breaking of the World, born of a maiden) the most litereal interpretation may not be the correct one.

[Kadere]

I know this is totally technical but the Aiel never picked up the sword, they picked up the spear and in that sense believed they were staying true to what they had been.

[RobertAlexWillis]

While its certainly possible to twist the word "remnant" almost any way you like, I'm going to be very dissapointed, from a dramatic perspective, if Ragnarok/Armageddon turns out to be nothing more than a philosophical shift.

 

In real life, I'm all for peaceful solutions where no one dies.  But in this story, I'm expecting heavy, heavy casualties, and the Aiel to be taking the brunt of it.

 

I have a feeling the Tarmon Gai'don is going to kill a very large number of people.

[Quixotic]

On a related note , would Galina ever be arrested and brought back to the tower? Or is a few centures of servitude a sufficient punishment in your opinion ?

[Luckers]

I have no doubt they are going to experience heavy casualties, i just think that in light of the social changes the Aiel are experiencing the 'remnant of a remnant' refers to a new social change amongst the Aiel. Its already been seen in the shift in the Wise One position on channeling, the new appearence of male channelers will no doubt influence it. Then we have the very significant change in the interaction between the Aiel and the non-Aiel. The previous barriers no longer apply. Put all that into a society that is already in flux because of revelations about their past and you will see a change.

 

Ultimately, i believe the remnant of a remnant does not refer to a massive deathrate, but rather that the Aiel that enter the new era will be different to the modern Aiel. They will be a remnant of a people that are a remnant of the Dai'shain. A remnant of a remnant.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Still ... the prophecy itself does seem to be talking about a deathrate.

 

As Bair quoted to Rand:

 

  Quote

"He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."

 

TSR ch 34

 

The remnant of a remnant is saved, and they shall live.  As in not die.  Not "live a different way", or "experience social change". 

 

The blood of the Aiel will be spilled out in apparently large amounts (sand absorbs water almost without limit, especially in the desert), broken as dried twigs (which break up so thoroughly that they cease to be wood althogether ... they just crumble into dust).

 

The exception?  A remnant of a remnant.  How are they the exception?  They live.  So, apparently, the others don't.

 

Look, I'm not denying that the Aiel are going through great social change.  But thats not what this prophecy seems to be talking about ...

[Luckers]

I didn't say there wasn't an argument for your side, i said i dont hold with it. To me it seems very likely that the social upheval is the basis of the new breaking, remnant of a remnant prophecies that are about.

[Kura]

  Quote

Still ... the prophecy itself does seem to be talking about a deathrate.

 

As Bair quoted to Rand:

 

  Quote

"He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."

 

TSR ch 34

 

The remnant of a remnant is saved, and they shall live.  As in not die.  Not "live a different way", or "experience social change". 

 

The blood of the Aiel will be spilled out in apparently large amounts (sand absorbs water almost without limit, especially in the desert), broken as dried twigs (which break up so thoroughly that they cease to be wood althogether ... they just crumble into dust).

 

The exception?  A remnant of a remnant.  How are they the exception?  They live.  So, apparently, the others don't.

 

Look, I'm not denying that the Aiel are going through great social change.  But thats not what this prophecy seems to be talking about ...

 

Well, not sure if this supports or is against your theory, but I think the killing mass numbers has already begun/happened. Specifically the Shaido when they fought Rand at Carhien. They called themselves Aiel, yet we all know the Shaido didn't follow Aiel ways to the letter, and a large amount of them did die. Though this is such a small portion of the actual population, that I doubt it fulfills the prophecy in whole, but it does fit the over all theme.

[balefireruinssteaks]

  Quote

On a related note , would Galina ever be arrested and brought back to the tower? Or is a few centures of servitude a sufficient punishment in your opinion ?

 

I think Galina's story is over.  The price she paid for joining forces with the Black Ajah and such was that she would remain a servant to Therava for the rest of their lives...and since they're channelers that could be a VERY long time.

[DemandredFO]

RAW, prophecy is never literal, One prophecy said something like he shall lead the spears from the forsaken city.  Now if we were being close to literal, it would be as Moiraine said, Illian, which was ruled by a FORESAKEN.  However, it did not, it meant Rhuidian, foresaken as in never completed and that no one lived there.  I could quote prophecies all day but I won't.  As others have said the battles with the Shaido, the Foresaken, the Seanchan and Trollocs have already spilled alot of Aiel blood.  Just because the Shaido have abandoned honor, I still think by the prophecies they are concidered Aiel.  As Luckers said, there WILL be lots of people dying in Tarmon Gai'don but between TG and what came before, I don't think there will be a genocide.  More of them may get killed than others because Rand may use them as shock troops but I don't see a bloodbath in their future.

If I sounded harsh at times I didn't mean to be, just forceful

[Tyrell]

  Quote

  Quote

On a related note , would Galina ever be arrested and brought back to the tower? Or is a few centures of servitude a sufficient punishment in your opinion ?

 

I think Galina's story is over.  The price she paid for joining forces with the Black Ajah and such was that she would remain a servant to Therava "Therava's little Lina" for the rest of their lives...and since they're channelers that could be a VERY long time.

 

Edited slightly :D and actually.. it was the price she paid for kidnapping Rand then running away and getting caught by the Shaido. Although it could not have happened to a more deserving person in my oppinion (although I wouldn't mind giving the majority of the seafolk to Therava :P).

[cloglord]

  Quote

"He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."

 

TSR CH 34  (As quoted downthread by Raw)

 

I couldn't agree with you more RAW, I would like to add a few things if I may.  I agree that the spilling of blood and the saving of a remnant and their subsequent living, are connected and will happen in connection with Rand's direct action.  This seems to me to be antithetical to Lucker's argument, as this prophecy requiresRand to be the actor.  It says that Rand will be the one to save the remnant of the remnant, and LUcker's interpretation of this prophecy would require him to act in a manner that would specifically mold their future culture, and save them as they were.  As we have seen, Rand has shattered their belief system, and if the prophecy were refering to a remnant of a culture saved, then it would be awfully hard for Rand to put that particular egg back into the shell. It would be awfully hard for him to save a culture that he has already destroyed.

 

The other problem that I have with the remnant of the Daishan argument, is that the prophecy identifies the subject as "Those who call themselves Aiel."  First, it is in the present tense, not "Those who called themselves Aiel," but rather, "Those who call themselves Aiel.  Secondly, the Daishan Aiel did not call themselves the "Aiel" they called themselves the "Daishan Aiel,' and later they called themselves the, "Jenn Aiel."   

 

Currently, those who call themselves Aiel, follow Rand. However, before he came Rhuidean, the Aiel people were united culturally, if not politically.  They were largely homogenous and called themselves "Aiel."  After Rand's revelation of the Rhuidean viewing, That groups encountered serious schizms.  They divided into the "loyal" Aiel, the Shaido, the Brotherless, and those who simply threw away their spears and ran away to become Gashain or become Tinkers.  Ever since those shifts, the group that have been loyal to Rand has been getting smaller and smaller, until only the hard core of the Aiel remain, those who are most "dedicated"  to the "Aiel", (not Jenn Aiel) way of life.  They have become a remnant of those who until a year or so ago, were calling themselves, "Aiel."  Rand's Aiel will need to be further broken, and I believe it is this remnant of that remnant that will be saved, by direct action of Rand, at TG.

[The winds of Time]

alright i see we're splitting hairs finer than Aes Sedi here so im going to also.

 

First off: technicly the shadio are not evil just misguided and had to adapt for the misguidence. Sevenna was greedy and rotton to the core, and led the shadio on the war path after her husband (couldain) died for being a false Car'a'carn this gave her power, she liked it and naturally craved more of it. Bam she leads the shadio spears on the war path to conqure the wetlands. I didnt see any records of the shadio constantly being evil or straying from Jie'toh before Sevanna got a hold of the reins. see my point?

 

Next in reference of the shadio not being evil, i feel that they are going to pop up again VERY soon. because though under sevennas leadership they strayed from Jie'toh Therva on the other hand was completely opposed to the changes and strays of Jie'toh. so untill a new cheif shows therva is going to have a pretty good chance of snapping the shadio into order and make them follow Jie'toh as normally as rands aiel.

 

refering to the prophesies the blood spilled was probably the shadios and rands aiel blood shed during battles. Whether or not they die at TG is unclear, most likely but not enough proof to support any theory. As said in the prophesies (quoteing as close but should be basic gist) "he shall take them and break them as dried twigs yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live" this suggests the seperation of Aiel. the whole remnant could be Jie'toh as a whole (he practicly turned it upside down) the remnant of Jie'toh that the aiel still hold close could be the remnant that regrow the aiel after a massive genocide that could be TG. I mean look at how many wana be aiel are around? cha'faile, and the few wetlander men who imitate the aiel, There is no definition to who is or is not aiel. rands mother (a wetlander fleeing from her country) journeyed to the waste and lived among aiel and became a MOTS. this practicly makes her aiel. so the fragments could be Jie'toh as a whole not just refering to the men and women who call themselves aiel.

 

as for galinia she gets what she deserves, though im not convinced that she was Black Ajah, when she swore new oaths she swore not to lie to the WISEONES this could overide the oaths taken as Aes Sedi (the three oaths). This in turn allows her to lie to others (like faile) except wiseones. she probably lied not to kill faile and company but to cover up people who she asked to get the oath rod from, from exposing secrets of her captivity (stripped naked and beaten isnt truely perfect for a Aes Sedi with dignity is it?)

 

Well there you have it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

  Quote

as for galinia she gets what she deserves, though im not convinced that she was Black Ajah

 

Ah .... Galina Casban was definitely Black Ajah.  She thinks it to herself in her own POV in ACoS ch 40, and in fact, she's the second highest ranking member of the Black Ajah (or was, anyway).  From that POV, we learn she was involved in the breaking of two Amyrlin Seats, including Tamra Ospeyna.

 

This information is confirmed in both Katerine's POV (LoC Prologue), and when Talene, who was in her Heart, confesses to Seaine's Hunters in Tar Valon (Yukiri's POV, CoT Prologue).

 

  Quote

when she swore new oaths she swore not to lie to the WISEONES this could overide the oaths taken as Aes Sedi (the three oaths).

 

She swore to obey the Wise Ones, not to not lie to them.  And conflicting Oaths don't override one another ... the conflict kills the person who took the Oath.  See the example of Zerah in TPoD ch 26.  The Hunter's make Zerah take the extra Oath to obey them, and thne Pevara ordered her to admit something that she believed was not true.  She was physically unable to do so ... but the conflict had her choking to death until Pevara told her she didn't have to say it.

 

Galina's Oath to the Wise Ones would not have allowed her to lie, if the Three Oaths had been in force.  But, since she was Black Ajah, they were not.

[Andrew the Great]

  Quote

"he shall take them and break them as dried twigs yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live" this suggests the seperation of Aiel. the whole remnant could be Jie'toh as a whole (he practicly turned it upside down) the remnant of Jie'toh that the aiel still hold close could be the remnant that regrow the aiel after a massive genocide that could be TG. I mean look at how many wana be aiel are around? cha'faile, and the few wetlander men who imitate the aiel, There is no definition to who is or is not aiel. rands mother (a wetlander fleeing from her country) journeyed to the waste and lived among aiel and became a MOTS. this practicly makes her aiel. so the fragments could be Jie'toh as a whole not just refering to the men and women who call themselves aiel.

 

"A remnant of a remnant he shall save, and they shall live" This kind of implies people, not ji'e'toh (sp?) as it wouldn't be described as they. As for it applying to the "Aiel imitators", the Aiel comment over and over again about how the wetlanders make a mockery of ji'e'toh and do not understand it. I think that the remnant of a remnant have got to be actual Aiel out of the waste.

 

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post. I think that that is what you mean, but if I misinterpreted, I'm sorry and please clarify so I can understand. This kind of confused me.

[The winds of Time]

ok first off,

i see your point Robert, i didnt remember those quotes (and i checked) and your right galina is definitely black ajah.

 

2 andrew, i see the confusion you are having but here is what im trying to get at, The definition of Aiel someone who comes out of the waste and follows Jie'Toh, however it is apparent their are very skeptical lines drawn here. Example: rands mother who fled her country into the aiel waste, she was technicly a wetlander by definition, however she stayed among the aiel and eventually was accepted as a maiden of the spear, a positon only Aiel could join into. This example shows that there are no said definitions of Aiel actually living and coming directly from the waste. so naturally you turn to the second part of the definition of following Jie'Toh. That is the founding of my "fragment of a fragment" theory. so that leads us to say if the wetlander aiel wana be's get themselves together and actually learn Jie'toh and follow it as aiel Actually do, then that makes them aiel.

(hopes this solves the confusion)