The better Amyrlin Seat

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

I just had to throw this out there because I really loved Siuan as Amyrlin. She was tough and commanding, but a great leader, and exceptional in every way. It kind of breaks my heart that she had to go from being one of the most powerful world leaders to being Egwene's mentor/advisor, and not really liked or respected by anyone anymore. The only good thing is that she found Gareth. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. I don't like Egwene that much...but let's see if I'm just overly biased.

 

Please share your thoughts.

[ironcross]

i like elaida  :P

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

*sigh* I suppose I ought to add the woman to the list in all fairness

[Guest silver89]

It has to be Siuan, she just kicked ass as the Amyrlin Seat. ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Up until Knife of Dreams, it would have been tough for me to say.  Now, there's no doubt (to me, of course) that it is Egwene.  I don't think Siuan, even at her best, would have been able to conduct the sort of campaign that Egwene is inside the Tower.

[Vambram]

Alright, RAW. I am glad that there is another fan besides myself who admits to being in the minority when it comes to appreciating or even liking, Egwene, her character, and her role in this epic series of books. :)

[Majsju]

Well, since Egwene is my favourite character in the books, I'm somewhat biased towards her. But even without that bias, I think Egwene is a better Amyrlin than Siuan. She has a broader range to her leadership than Siuan, who depended almost exclusively on her brutal willpower (and look where that got her).

 

Though, in all fairness, Egwenes experiences gives her quite an advantage. First Nynaeves apprentice, then out adventuring on her own, and finally being the Wise Ones apprentice. While Siuan came directly from her home to the White Tower, and never really had time to experience much else.

[Lune]

In normal times Siuan would be the better Amyrlin, but in these times with the rapidly changing world and the White Tower is no longer absolute, Egwene does much better with her outside experience and the fact that she is free of the mentality that she can have her way simply by virtue of her position.

[Darkness Incarnated]

Hmm, I prefer Siuan. And brutal willpower? I don't know, I see Siuan as 'strong' and determined, she just doesn't take nonsense from people, and she's willing--if it comes to that--to push and shove if people are acting like fools. A bit like Cadsuane. Plus, I doubt the Aes Sedai would tolerate a brutal Amyrlin for long [Elaida].

When it comes to Egwene I am biased. I don't doubt that she's intelligent and could make a great Amyrlin, but let's not forget that without Siuan the AS would have eaten her alive. It's a credit to her intelligence that she's a fast learner, but she is a touch too cold and too manipulative for my taste. I can only hope that she'll come back to her senses and realize that Aes Sedai are human.

Lune, how exactly is Egwene free of the mentality that she can have her way simply by virtue of her position?

 

[nashdude]

In normal times Siuan would be the better Amyrlin, but in these times with the rapidly changing world and the White Tower is no longer absolute, Egwene does much better with her outside experience and the fact that she is free of the mentality that she can have her way simply by virtue of her position.

 

My thoughts exactly. I LOVE how both women conduct themselves, but as to the question of the BEST Amyrlin, it would be a tough call, based entirely on the situation.

 

Siuan is steeped in the knowledge of the Tower, the traditions and histories that have made up every Amyrlin since the time of the Breaking.

 

Egwene is a simple country girl who has been thrust into an unenviable position. Granted, she allowed herself to be thrust into that position, but it is one that she was wholely unprepared for. But because of her upbringing, of her penchant for lateral thinking, she wages war in a manner that Siuan would be hard-pressed to match.

 

In peace time, she would not be able to keep up with Siuan. Currently. Given time to grow into the position, however, I think she'll be every bit as good as Siuan is. Remember, Siuan wasn't always the wisest of them all ;)

[Lune]

Lune, how exactly is Egwene free of the mentality that she can have her way simply by virtue of her position?

 

 

She lacks the "LOL AES SEDAI R #1!" thing that the others pull. And that's a very important trait given the circumstances.

[PrinceOfRavens]

many people are biased towards egwence cause she acted like an arse alot in the earlier parts of the books. I didnt like her too. saying that rand was bigheaded and stuff like that. He was of course, but she didnt see she herself was becoming twice as arrogant as rand himself. I could tear my head out when she did something like that.

 

After she became amyrlin though its a whole different case. She has really grown in to her position already with help from siuan. Guys please consider that Egewene is 18-19 years old:). with tutering from siuan, egwene can be the best amyrlin the tower ever hard, or one of the best anyway. She is (now at least) levelheaded enough to listen to advice but to see when someone is trying to guide her into something.

 

I think Egwene is better then siuan,but that is only possible because siuan tutored egwene very well in her tasks. What would happen if siuan wasnt there? Think of that :)

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Well, since Egwene is my favourite character in the books, I'm somewhat biased towards her. But even without that bias, I think Egwene is a better Amyrlin than Siuan. She has a broader range to her leadership than Siuan, who depended almost exclusively on her brutal willpower (and look where that got her).

 

What do you mean, look where that got her? If Siuan and Moiraine had not risked everything, Rand, Mat, Perrin, and countless others would probably be dead. End of the series before it even started. Siuan was brave, and she ended up having to sacrifice her position, and even being Aes Sedai for a while.

 

And Siuan did not depend on her "brutal willpower" all the time. Am I missing something, or isn't Egwene the one who blackmailed other AS into swearing oaths of fealty to her? Of course Siuan could not share all her information with the others. They would have stopped her from doing what was necessary.

 

In normal times Siuan would be the better Amyrlin, but in these times with the rapidly changing world and the White Tower is no longer absolute, Egwene does much better with her outside experience and the fact that she is free of the mentality that she can have her way simply by virtue of her position.

 

Are you kidding me? Egwene orders people around all the time. I think she has neatly embraced that mentality. Did Egwene want an "equal" relationship with the Asha'man? Does she want an "equal" relationship with the Kin?

 

Without Siuan there to guide her, I think Egwene would have been squashed avocado.

 

When it comes to Egwene I am biased. I don't doubt that she's intelligent and could make a great Amyrlin, but let's not forget that without Siuan the AS would have eaten her alive. It's a credit to her intelligence that she's a fast learner, but she is a touch too cold and too manipulative for my taste. I can only hope that she'll come back to her senses and realize that Aes Sedai are human.

 

Couldn't have said it better

 

 

Remember when Egwene was that sweet girl from Emond's field? Of course she had to change to become Amyrlin Seat, but it gives me goosebumps when she thinks of herself as so different that she can't even relate to her old self. For me, one of the most upsetting things Egwene did was how she immediately assumed Rand was using Compulsion when she found out Aes Sedai were working for him. Rand, who she grew up with and thought she was going to marry someday. She herself had people swear oaths to her, but no, she didn't think that was what Rand did.

 

lol, 5 am, 1 am, you guys are up at odd hours  ;)

sleep, people, sleep makes you happy  ;D

[lou]

it was the wise ones who taught egwene honor and obligation, the tools needed to become a great leader. suiane helped teach egwene politics, something egwene has a natural aptitiude for. it will be these two aspects that will make her the greatest amyrlin.

[Lune]

 

Are you kidding me? Egwene orders people around all the time. I think she has neatly embraced that mentality. Did Egwene want an "equal" relationship with the Asha'man? Does she want an "equal" relationship with the Kin?

 

Without Siuan there to guide her, I think Egwene would have been squashed avocado.

 

 

It isn't the same as waltzing in and giving orders and expecting everything to go her way. Egwene is well aware that she has to fight her way to achieving what she needs. Why do you think she needs oaths of fealty to *her* rather than just waving her stole in everyone's face?

 

I don't really see what you mean by wanting an 'equal relationship with the Kin', Aes Sedai retire into the Kin, they are no longer bound by Oaths, they become an affiliated body but retain their own rules and what not. Kin =/= Aes Sedai, you cannot make them 'equal' when they're not even on the same level. On that same line, her looking after the interests of her organization does not equal the old 'Aes Sedai are #1, you must all listen to us' mentality.

 

Egwene knows that the White Tower is no longer an absolute, her experiences with the Seanchan and the Aiel have taught her that. Flashing the ring in front of either does nothing.

 

For me, one of the most upsetting things Egwene did was how she immediately assumed Rand was using Compulsion when she found out Aes Sedai were working for him. Rand, who she grew up with and thought she was going to marry someday. She herself had people swear oaths to her, but no, she didn't think that was what Rand did.

 

To be fair, nobody really knows Rand or what goes through his mind anymore. His best friends don't, Nynaeve doesn't either. It's one thing to swear to the Amyrlin and it's another thing to swear to a man who usually incites mass panic barfing/fainting amongst Aes Sedai of any affiliation. The possibility of the latter is just that unlikely. Plus compulsion *was* involved for a good number of those oaths, not for the Salidar group but the implication would be that if it weren't for Ta'veren, the Salidar group probably wouldn't have sworn either.

[Matrim_Foxhead]

i know this is really controversial but i dont like egwene either i think siun is a good amyrlin seat - she was strong. i think maybe egwene is too young to be amyrlin seat.

[PrinceOfRavens]

i know this is really controversial but i dont like egwene either i think siun is a good amyrlin seat - she was strong. i think maybe egwene is too young to be amyrlin seat.

 

Thats the point, i think they also chose her because she was to young and i think they thought it was easier for them to manipulate her to their ends

[lou]

they were sadly mistaken, as suiane pointed out herself...

[Luckers]

Siuan was too preoccupied with the grandeur of Aes Sedai. Whilst that is understandable, given Aes Sedai indoctrination, it nevertheless leaves Egwene as the more capable, objective and reasonable leader. That is both when it comes to dealing with the Aes Sedai, and all their internal issues, and in dealing with the world at large.

 

To be clear, the Aes Sedai training program creates intelligent, well educated, strong willed women--except in one specific area--the Power. Aes Sedai create themselves out of their ability to channel the Power, and that clouds everything they do--from internal interaction as judged by strength, to the need to dismiss non-Aes Sedai channelers as wilders, and thus be able to retain their inherent assumption of respect, to their position on male channelers.

 

This attitude informs every weakness they have. They let sparkers die from lack of training because the feel that women must intentionally seek and strive in order to attain the great honour of becoming Aes Sedai, yet they actively discourage any other groups of channelers from fulfilling that roll. The disregaurd the Wise Ones and Windefinders, who have both been gathering and training channelers (to much more success) since before the Tower was dreamt of. Then there is their attitude toward non-channelers... the assumption of greater knowledge... grr.

 

Siuan, however innovative she may have been amongst the Aes Sedai, would not have been able to deal with the new world as it formed.

 

Beyond that, though, as Robert cited, I simply do not believe that Siuan is as capable as Egwene, as events in KoD show her ability to be.

[Nelal Hurcran]

It's really hard to choose who has the best Amyrilin seat. RJ doesn’t usually describe that part of their anatomy. Hmmm............. :P  ;) :D

 

 

Or are we talking the chair in the Hall? The one in the tower is probably better made.

 

You can't be talking about the actual person. None of them are good. They are all, as Luckers has pointed out, holier-than-thou b****es. 

 

[Majestic]

Egwene ftw  :o

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

 

Are you kidding me? Egwene orders people around all the time. I think she has neatly embraced that mentality. Did Egwene want an "equal" relationship with the Asha'man? Does she want an "equal" relationship with the Kin?

 

Without Siuan there to guide her, I think Egwene would have been squashed avocado.

 

 

It isn't the same as waltzing in and giving orders and expecting everything to go her way. Egwene is well aware that she has to fight her way to achieving what she needs. Why do you think she needs oaths of fealty to *her* rather than just waving her stole in everyone's face?

 

I don't really see what you mean by wanting an 'equal relationship with the Kin', Aes Sedai retire into the Kin, they are no longer bound by Oaths, they become an affiliated body but retain their own rules and what not. Kin =/= Aes Sedai, you cannot make them 'equal' when they're not even on the same level. On that same line, her looking after the interests of her organization does not equal the old 'Aes Sedai are #1, you must all listen to us' mentality.

 

Egwene knows that the White Tower is no longer an absolute, her experiences with the Seanchan and the Aiel have taught her that. Flashing the ring in front of either does nothing.

 

First of all, though Egwene said the Kin would retain their rules and still be a separate organization, she explicitly states that they would still operate under the Amyrlin, of course. What I meant by "equal" was that neither group has more authority over the other. Clearly, that is not Egwene's intention.

 

Honestly, I don't see how blackmailing someone to swear an oath of fealty is better than waving the stole in their face. Actually, the oaths are rather sickening.

 

Of course Egwene knows the White Tower is no longer absolute. That's not secret info. Every Aes Sedai with half an eye or ear knows about the Asha'man, the split of the Tower, and the Seanchan.

 

For me, one of the most upsetting things Egwene did was how she immediately assumed Rand was using Compulsion when she found out Aes Sedai were working for him. Rand, who she grew up with and thought she was going to marry someday. She herself had people swear oaths to her, but no, she didn't think that was what Rand did.

 

To be fair, nobody really knows Rand or what goes through his mind anymore. His best friends don't, Nynaeve doesn't either. It's one thing to swear to the Amyrlin and it's another thing to swear to a man who usually incites mass panic barfing/fainting amongst Aes Sedai of any affiliation. The possibility of the latter is just that unlikely. Plus compulsion *was* involved for a good number of those oaths, not for the Salidar group but the implication would be that if it weren't for Ta'veren, the Salidar group probably wouldn't have sworn either.

 

Actually that's not fair at all. Yes, Rand has his yell-a-lot-and-talk-to-himself-and-throw-things moments, but nobody with an ounce of brain doubts that his intention is to go to TG and defeat the DO. And I don't think it's more unlikely to swear to the Dragon Reborn than to the Amyrlin Seat. As for comparing the ta'veren to compulsion, waaay different. Egwene and Rand both forced people to take oaths. They did the same thing. End of story. The only difference is that Egwene assumed he used the Power for Compulsion.

[Niss]

T0 sum that up suien would be the best AS i'm not abuve using the compulsion but i have to say i hate the way Rand and Euguna changed they have no loyalty.

[Vambram]

If you feel that way about Rand and Egwene, Niss, then I don't understand how you are able to still enjoy the books.

[dmanmiller34]

Egwene Will be a better Amrylin by far. She was nopt raised with the Above all Aes sedai Dogma that Siuan was raised with. Most Aes sedai grow up in the tower and Egewene has grown up outside the tower and has Learned that Aes sedai are not Omnipoient nor even respected in many ways. She is proably the one Aes sedai that can truly see the core values of what an Aes sedai is supposed to be without the byass rose colored glasses.