The Mysteries of Cyndane

[Luckers]

How many of all the female channelers in the world who could test for, and successfully achieve the shawl. In a bell curve...

 

Ie, the cut-off point is Not 37.5% power points.

 

You assume knowledge you don't have. RJ specifically states that the bellcurve covers all women who can channel, and you have no numebrs about the even nature of distrubution. A normal distribution would result in it being exactly 37.5. Sorry mate.

 

Well Luckers, I do read you replies.

 

Really, so why did you go on to repeatedly state things about how Siuan and Leane are below the cut off point? Let me draw your attention to...

 

You say there are six sisters are weaker than Suian is now?  Which six?  List them.  Since you failed to list them, they don't count.  I chose not to do that though.

 

Funny, I've listed them about eight times. Let me quote for you.

 

Quote

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Suine, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.

[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

 

So we have two women around Suine’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the twenty-two Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Suine.

 

Huh. Wow... it almost seems as if i listed them. Even quoted them. How astonishing.

 

Anyway, assuming those 6 Aes Sedai are all in Salidar, and Salidar has about 300 Aes Sedai, or roughly 1/3 of all Aes Sedai, that makes them 2 percent of the Aes Sedai in Salidar

 

Oh, my. Still not reading posts?

 

Add in the fact that, anytime someone like Cadsuane thinks about the strongest sisters, she notes the ability really jumps from one to the next of that top 50, I don't see it hard to believe she lost more than 50 percent of her strength and not just her social status.

 

Cadsuane actually says that the strength jump is between Moiraine and Siuan's final strength to Karene, the next step up. This, again, is where reading helps.

 

If you want to see her placement among Aes Sedai you need to eliminate that 37.5 percent from the equation.  Luckers was nice enough to claim we have seen 6 Sisters that have more power than Suian.  If all six of them are in Salidar, and Salidar is a representational of Aes Sedai as a whole that would we can assume there are 20 Aes Sedia that are weaker than Suian.  Out of total of about 1000.  That means, for determining status, you can only claim her to be stronger than weakest 2 percent.

 

Luckers was also nice enough to say a lot more about this than that. Read, read, read.

 

Not only that, but no other place in Randland is as isolated and secluded as Two Rivers, due to it's borders (Two Rivers to the North and South, the Mountains of Mist to the West, and the Mire to the East.)I find it incredibly unlikely that Aes Sedai would manage to miss someone as strong of a channeler as Nynaeve anywhere else, even in the borderlands.Not just miss them, though, but miss them for twenty years or more, to fit the age of Cyndane.

 

Well, to be fair, though this is against me, they missed Sharina, and she is at least as strong as Cyndane. In point of fact most of the women who can channel go undetected because Aes sedai don't test learners unless they come to the tower (trusting on a 16 to 18 year old girls courage in a medieval era for your intake... absurd). And they tend to ignore wilders as a point of fact.

 

If you don't like my refusal to give completely acceptance to a statement Lucker's didn't provide proof for, that doesn't bother me in the least.

 

It may not bother you, but it does make you look like a bit of an idiot, since i did provide proof for it. Again, that whole 'reading' thing... very helpful.

 

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, to be fair, though this is against me, they missed Sharina, and she is at least as strong as Cyndane. In point of fact most of the women who can channel go undetected because Aes sedai don't test learners unless they come to the tower (trusting on a 16 to 18 year old girls courage in a medieval era for your intake... absurd). And they tend to ignore wilders as a point of fact

 

I wouldn't place Sharina at a level with Cyndane.

 

I'd put it like this:

 

Lanfear

Cyndane

Graendal | Alivia

Sharina

 

Though that is basically guesswork. But still, the likelihood they happened to find one of maybe a handful of channelers in the world, if that, capable of besting Graendal in strength is...slim, to say the least.

 

 

Also, though I might be wrong, I don't think he was saying that she was below cut-off point, but was saying that she could have lost half of her strength.

 

And I think that he interprets the quote about her wanting to get to "half her strength" as her wanting to get half as strong as she once was, rather than gain half of the strength she lost.

[Okvoz al-Vrag]

But my point in that statement is that sometimes characters don't seem to be able to make an appropriate recognization of their own strength. It's more of a rough judgement, and sometimes it could be as askew as Nynaeve's guess.

 

And, I must say that was an excellent point, Tinuviel.  Nynaeve's inexperience in the power and that she might not yet have reached her full potential at that point could also hamper her assessment of stengths in your example.  We might also keep in mind that when we get a character's POV, we can can only assume that character believes it, not that it is immutable fact.  RJ gives us pleanty of examples of characters reaching mistaken conclusions.

 

To echo Cybertrolloc somewhat, the idea of quantifying the strengths of various channelers seems to ignore that the in-world characters only compare relative strength, in essentially a qualitative way.  In the Delana/Siuan example cited above, Delana's languange implies to me that she and Suian were close in power with Suian being 'marginally' more powerful.  Now she is 'much more' powerful, which is consistent with Leane's assessment that her loss was more than half her strength.

 

I'd like to ask those of you who don't think she [Lanfear] got stilled why she had a problem fending off the Finns? Let's not forget the Tower of Ghenjei, so it isn't like she didn't have an escape route.

 

Let me also say that even if you don't think channeling near a ter'angreal would have stilled Lanfear, she was also using an angreal, which was clawed out of her hands when she fell through the gateway, while she was still using it. That type of abrupt cutting off from an angreal might have burned her out or stilled her.

 

I am not sure to whom you are referring, but I agree that Lanfear being stilled is a likely scenario, based on what RJ has written. However all we have are foreshadowing and hints as to what happened in A/E land.  We don't know that she even died there as opposed to under torture after a rescue by Team Shadow. For that matter, she could have died by falling through while having an active angreal clawed from her grasp, although her thought of being 'held' by the 'Finn seems to indicate otherwise.

 

Regardless, what I find interesting is that she doesn't seemed as dimished as Leane and Suian --- the point that led to the current somewhat-off-topic discussion.  This could mean that she wasn't stilled, that the reincarnation cancels out stilling, or that she was healed by a man.  If any of these turn out to be true, then we must seek a different explanation for her thoughts vis-a-vis Alivia at Shadar Logoth. 

 

I found three different possibilities that have appeared in various posts:

• she was healed (with the One Power?) by Moridin who tells Lews Therin in the original Prologue that his healing isn't the same as that of the Aes Sedai
  
• she is partially shielded, a fitting punishment for what she did to Asmodean
  
• the cour souvra

 

I'd be interested if anyone can think of others or would weigh in these three.  It's clear that those following this thread are very knowledgeable and very clever.  :)

[Cybertrolloc]

As long as your interested:

 

Lanfear's thoughts are she was stronger in the past than she was at the Cleansing. The ability loss seems to be real...unless she's resigned to it. Remember, she taunts Asmo for being unable to break the shield she put on him. I don't think we have an example of the female strength sense done while someone is shielded, that's in speculation territory.

 

For it to be the Cour Souvra, we'd see it with Moggy...though she hasn't had much in the way of PoV from her or a female channeler familiar with her.

 

Cyndane was brought back sometime before Moggy was mind trapped (mid to late ACoS), is that close enough to when Flynn healed the Aes Sedai? The True Power is useable by male or female, so maybe that could explain things (Moridin doing the healing--remember Aginor one power over-dosed but perhaps died before being cut off, Osangar was near Rand ACoS/PoD strength...if being cut off carries through being recycled and a few other things we know nothing about except the DO can do them somehow ;)).

 

Which probably puts us squarely in the realm of wouldn't it be cool if or guess how RJ would have it work :(

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

FACT: Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear.

 

FACT: Cyndane is Lanfear.

 

FACT: Cyndane is stronger than Graendal.

 

FACT: Siuan and Leane's strength was depleted when she was healed by a woman.

 

FACT: Same-gender healing cannot restore you to full strength.

 

 

 

QUESTION: Are channelers reduced in strength by a set amount when healed by a member of the same sex?

 

QUESTION: Are channelers reduced in strength by a set percentage when healed by a member of the same sex?

 

QUESTION: Are channelers reduced in strength by a random percentage/amount, or a set percentage/amount?

 

QUESTION: Did Lanfear die when attempting to escape from the Finns; or, if not, how did she die?

 

QUESTION: Were Lanfear, Siuan, and Leane weakened by the same percentage/amount?

 

QUESTION: When Siuan begged to be healed better, was she asking to be healed to half her original strength, or gain half of what she had lost?

 

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the healing someone who has been stilled?

 

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the necessity for cross-gender healing of severing to restore you to full strength?

 

QUESTION: Was Lanfear stilled, and if not, why is she weaker?

 

QUESTION: Who/what healed Lanfear, if she was stilled?

 

QUESTION: Would the transmigration process restore the ability to channel as if the person was being reborn?

 

QUESTION: How could the Dark One have found someone of a greater strength than Graendal, by chance, if strength in the One Power is related to the body?

 

QUESTION: If a member of the same sex cannot heal you to your full strength in the One Power, is there a way to infuse you with a greater strength?

[Okvoz al-Vrag]

... For it to be the Cour Souvra, we'd see it with Moggy...though she hasn't had much in the way of PoV from her or a female channeler familiar with her. ...

 

True, Moggy hasn't thought about being lessened in front of us, but she didn't relay on raw power to achieve her ends in the first place.  She also has had very humbling encounters that challenge the otherwise common attitude among the chosen that modern channelers aren't a match them. 

 

As for why Graendal might not have remarked on a loss in Moggy too, my impression is that Moggy wasn't considered by the other Chosen as one of their more signifcant rivals. Moggy tells the Wonder Girls that Lanfear's claim to rule The World of Dreams is a delusion because she is more powerful/experienced in that realm. Her other POV's mention how much she thinks they underestimate her. Graendal being just behind Lanfear in Strength might have led her to dismiss Moggy as inferior without much thought.

 

In the encounter, G. is  trying to puzzle out Cydane, especially after Moggy tells her that Cydane is leading the delegation. This same question is in the mind of the reader, and RJ's intention could have been to drop a clue that Cydane = Lanfear, not about the healing of stilling. G. is also probably distracted by the news Cyand moggy bring as it will force her to reconsider her schemes.

 

... remember Aginor one power over-dosed but perhaps died before being cut off, Osangar was near Rand ACoS/PoD strength...if being cut off carries through being recycled and a few other things we know nothing about except the DO can do them somehow ;)).

 

Regarding Aginor, Lewis Therin flamed out in spectacular fashion also and was reincarnated as Rand without anyone to heal the channeling ability into him.

 

Which probably puts us squarely in the realm of wouldn't it be cool if or guess how RJ would have it work :(

 

After the series in concluded, Maybe RJ will relent. (fingers crossed.)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Though it isn't exactly in the DO's best interest to weaken some of his top minions. Plus, they already have a very painful reminder of their failure, and I think enough has been done to rein them in.

 

Though in all fairness, if it was some side effect of the cour'souvra, or if it was an intended effect of the mind trap, it might be plausible that we didn't notice Moghedien being weaker, because she didn't die and get transmigrated, so we didn't have any Forsaken taking a close look at her strength to decide who she had been.

[Mr Ares]

... For it to be the Cour Souvra, we'd see it with Moggy...though she hasn't had much in the way of PoV from her or a female channeler familiar with her. ...

True, Moggy hasn't thought about being lessened in front of us, but she didn't relay on raw power to achieve her ends in the first place.  She also has had very humbling encounters that challenge the otherwise common attitude among the chosen that modern channelers aren't a match them. 

 

As for why Graendal might not have remarked on a loss in Moggy too, my impression is that Moggy wasn't considered by the other Chosen as one of their more signifcant rivals. Moggy tells the Wonder Girls that Lanfear's claim to rule The World of Dreams is a delusion because she is more powerful/experienced in that realm. Her other POV's mention how much she thinks they underestimate her. Graendal being just behind Lanfear in Strength might have led her to dismiss Moggy as inferior without much thought.

 

In the encounter, G. is  trying to puzzle out Cydane, especially after Moggy tells her that Cydane is leading the delegation. This same question is in the mind of the reader, and RJ's intention could have been to drop a clue that Cydane = Lanfear, not about the healing of stilling. G. is also probably distracted by the news Cyand moggy bring as it will force her to reconsider her schemes.

... remember Aginor one power over-dosed but perhaps died before being cut off, Osangar was near Rand ACoS/PoD strength...if being cut off carries through being recycled and a few other things we know nothing about except the DO can do them somehow ;)).

Regarding Aginor, Lewis Therin flamed out in spectacular fashion also and was reincarnated as Rand without anyone to heal the channeling ability into him.

But then, rebirth and transmigration are not quite the same thing. So one not needing Healing doesn't mean the other won't either.

 

Though it isn't exactly in the DO's best interest to weaken some of his top minions. Plus, they already have a very painful reminder of their failure, and I think enough has been done to rein them in.

 

Though in all fairness, if it was some side effect of the cour'souvra, or if it was an intended effect of the mind trap, it might be plausible that we didn't notice Moghedien being weaker, because she didn't die and get transmigrated, so we didn't have any Forsaken taking a close look at her strength to decide who she had been.

You are right to state that it wouldn't be in His best interest to weaken any of his minions. They are tools, and by impairing the effectiveness of His tools, He lessens (however slightly) His own chances of freedom. As for no-one noticing a lack of strength in Moggy, while they would likely not look for such a thing, is it really likely that that it would happen, but that Moggy would never comment on it, and no-one would notice about her being weaker? No-one notices at all? Also, Cynfear dates her weakening to "before the Finn held her" (paraphrased, obviously), not to before she was mindtrapped. So she was stronger before the Finn than after, so either they did it, or she was stilled and Healed to less than she was, and the stilling happenened before or during her time with the Finn. Stilling has the merit of requireing fewer assumptions - we know of only one way to reduce someones strength in the power, and that is severing and same gender Healing. We do not know enough about those effects, as in amount of strength lost, whether that is a percentage or fixed amount, or random, or what, to rule it out completely. Stilling is the most likely explanation.

[Jeff from MI]

I think a group class on statistics is in order.  With the exception of maybe 3 or 4 posters, near as I can figure, the rest of you learned about "bell curves" on Wikipedia!

 

I know Mr A's great-great-great grandson Luckers has a PHD in "logic", but he appreantly skipped his statistics class.

 

SPOILER ALERT: Unless you can somehow develope a sufficiantly large population with accurate strength ratings, it is impossible to determine where the 38.5 percentile lies with respect to relative strength.  I will say that it could be possible for a sufficiantly strong channeler to loose half or more of her strength and still fall above that line.  With out knowing the sigma, you can't say how wide the spread is. If you don't think so, you don't know enough about statistics. 

 

Of course this is kind of silly anyway since it is possible that RJ did not anticipate the statistical analysis of channelers relative strengths when he created his work.

 

Jeff from MI

[Luckers]

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the healing someone who has been stilled?

 

That ones a yes. Between the darkfriend grapevine in the Black Ajah, monitering Moghedian in order to bring her out of Salidar, Aran'gar and Moghedian herself, the Dark One knew.

 

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the necessity for cross-gender healing of severing to restore you to full strength?

 

Probably not. Even if he did, the male method had not been discovered at that stage, so its a bit of a moot point.

 

QUESTION: Who/what healed Lanfear, if she was stilled?

 

It would have to be a Black Sister sent from Salidar by gateway. Aran'gar uses saidin, and Moghedian has no ability with healing.

 

QUESTION: Would the transmigration process restore the ability to channel as if the person was being reborn?

 

No, Aran'gar prooves that the ability remains static during the transmigration process.

 

QUESTION: How could the Dark One have found someone of a greater strength than Graendal, by chance, if strength in the One Power is related to the body?

 

Since we know its not, its a moot question.

 

QUESTION: If a member of the same sex cannot heal you to your full strength in the One Power, is there a way to infuse you with a greater strength?

 

I believe RJ commented on this once, though i do not remember what he said about it.

[Trib4l]

This is where I always get confused.

 

I was under the impression from the scenes of Damer and Nynaeve healing the damage, that it's a physical connection in the body that gets cut. We know that strength and half are determined by the soul, and we know that the ability to learn or spark is genetic. What it appears we don't know is if stilling damages both body and soul?

 

If indeed it only damages the body, and Lanfear clearly died after her assumed stilling when passing through the doorway, it stands to reason that something else affected her ability. If it damages both body and soul, then I can agree that her soul would still have needed healing after transmigration into Cyndane.

 

So, is there an answer to this conundrum?

[Majsju]

[

QUESTION: Would the transmigration process restore the ability to channel as if the person was being reborn?

 

No, Aran'gar prooves that the ability remains static during the transmigration process.

 

 

You confuse two very different things here.

In Aran'gars case, what we see is simply that the soul determines if you channel Saidin or Saidar. That is all we learn from Aran'gar. (and that the soul also detetrmines strength, but we knew that already)

 

This is however irrelevant to healing stilling. From when Nynaeve heals Logain, Siuan and Leane we know that stilling is a physical thing, the something in the body that physically allows you to channel is severed.

 

Now, when Lanfear is put in her new body, it stands to reason that the DO would chose a body that has this ability intact, ie a body that has not been stilled while inhabited by its former owner.

 

If lanfear was stilled, that was only an issue for her own body, a body that is currently quite dead. When she gets put into her new body, she goes in with the strength determined by her soul. Since the connection in the new body is intact, the power-loss experienced by a channeler healed by someone of the same gender is not an issue.

 

Unless of course the person who inhabited Cyndanes body was stilled before the transmigration could take place, and then healed so that the connection can not work at 100%

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

How could the Dark One have found someone of a greater strength than Graendal, by chance, if strength in the One Power is related to the body?

 

That's mainly what I wanted to know. And I know you shared some ideas, but I still think that it is VERY unlikely.

 

Not only would we have to assume that there was a channeler that strong, we'd also have to assume that somehow the DO managed to get ahold of her.

 

Also, I do see your point about the saidin/saidar thing. That is quite clear, and I can understand you saying they are two different situations. But I do disagree.

 

Also, what are the chances that Rand was reincarnated into a body that had almost exactly the same strength as Lews Therin's body?

[lou]

the same question could pertain to ishmael as well....if ishmael and rand are the two strongest of the men, how likely would it be to find a man of calibur strength to transmigrate ish's soul to moridan?

i dont think the body itself has to have more than the ability, the strength comes from the soul itself. IMO

[Mik]

First off, I'd like to say I really like what you posted Luckers (the first post) and that I'm usually just lurking and reading all the interesting discussion and theories.

 

At the risk of side-tracking this discussion, I'd like to post this anyway, because every time someone brings it up, it irks me somehow;

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the healing someone who has been stilled?

 

That ones a yes. Between the darkfriend grapevine in the Black Ajah, monitering Moghedian in order to bring her out of Salidar, Aran'gar and Moghedian herself, the Dark One knew.

 

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the necessity for cross-gender healing of severing to restore you to full strength?

 

Probably not. Even if he did, the male method had not been discovered at that stage, so its a bit of a moot point.

The Great Lord of the Dark doesn't forget gained knowledge, I assume. It's a small assumption IMO, since he's as close to omnipotent as it gets.

 

So, considering the fact that the Wheel has been turning for a thousand times a thousand times*... and the fact that there are a quazillion* worlds out there that are all watched & touched (partly) by this being outside of time (in other words; is not affected by the wheels turnings whatsoever), I find it very hard to belief He doesn't know about how to 'heal' stilling the proper way.

 

We -as readers- look at just one small part of the Wheel turning when we read, but we must realise the Creator can look at the bigger picture. And -to a lesser extend-, so can the Dark One. (because he can only touch the Wheel partly & only at certain sections of it's turning)

Yet, the Dark One is around when the True Source is used (since the True Source gateway need to penetrate TAR for him to touch the world), so what is the chance of him not knowing about stilling & how to mutate it so it works fully again?

 

That chance is as close to zero as it gets..

Right?

 

 

---

"I have a thousand strings tied to you, Kinslayer, each one finer than silk and stronger than steel. Time has tied a thousand cords between us. The battle we two have fought-do you remember any part of that? Do you have any glimmering that we have fought before, battles without number back to the beginning of Time? I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin. Do you really think you can avoid it? You poor, shivering worm. You will serve me or die! And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death. The grave belongs to the Great Lord of the Dark. This time if you die, you will be destroyed utterly. This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold. Serve me! Serve Shai'tan, or be destroyed forever!"

 

Oh,...and while I'm here actually posting..I might as well add this too;

I see everyone posting "the Creator will not intervene/ take no part".

 

IT IS NOT HERE.

 

It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.

 

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. "Where?"

 

The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.

 

NOT HERE.

 

Then Him communicating with Rand at the end of TEotW is a pretty nasty paradox.

Saying "I will take no part" is in fact "taking a part".

And sharing intell about where and who should use a certain power source, is actually actively 'taking a part'...(a pretty big one at that)

 

For an omnipotent benevolent being, that's either;

a; a mistake

b; untrue

 

I just find it very odd.

Not just the fact that this actually happened, but also that people seem to derive from this self-contradictory statement, that the Creator doesn't intervene.

 

Anyway... love the discussions and the food for thought. Thanks @ all.

 

Mik

 

 

 

*= let's just say 'an awful lot'

 

 

[wvlr]

Luckers,

 

I personally think that RJ never expected us (His WoT) fans to scrutinize his story in such detail and so never paid enough attention to the detail of all the general comments when correlated and read together.  So he MIGHT have painted himself into a hole.

 

That said, I think that you have done some excellent work in keeping with what was actually said/written of finding a very reasonable and plausable "way out".    Excellent work as always.    But I still hate your "body swap" theory - even though I fear it will come true!

 

 

 

 

First off, I'd like to say I really like what you posted Luckers (the first post) and that I'm usually just lurking and reading all the interesting discussion and theories.

 

At the risk of side-tracking this discussion, I'd like to post this anyway, because every time someone brings it up, it irks me somehow;

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the healing someone who has been stilled?

 

That ones a yes. Between the darkfriend grapevine in the Black Ajah, monitering Moghedian in order to bring her out of Salidar, Aran'gar and Moghedian herself, the Dark One knew.

 

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the necessity for cross-gender healing of severing to restore you to full strength?

 

Probably not. Even if he did, the male method had not been discovered at that stage, so its a bit of a moot point.

The Great Lord of the Dark doesn't forget gained knowledge, I assume. It's a small assumption IMO, since he's as close to omnipotent as it gets.

 

So, considering the fact that the Wheel has been turning for a thousand times a thousand times*... and the fact that there are a quazillion* worlds out there that are all watched & touched (partly) by this being outside of time (in other words; is not affected by the wheels turnings whatsoever), I find it very hard to belief He doesn't know about how to 'heal' stilling the proper way.

 

We -as readers- look at just one small part of the Wheel turning when we read, but we must realise the Creator can look at the bigger picture. And -to a lesser extend-, so can the Dark One. (because he can only touch the Wheel partly & only at certain sections of it's turning)

Yet, the Dark One is around when the True Source is used (since the True Source gateway need to penetrate TAR for him to touch the world), so what is the chance of him not knowing about stilling & how to mutate it so it works fully again?

 

That chance is as close to zero as it gets..

Right?

 

 

---

"I have a thousand strings tied to you, Kinslayer, each one finer than silk and stronger than steel. Time has tied a thousand cords between us. The battle we two have fought-do you remember any part of that? Do you have any glimmering that we have fought before, battles without number back to the beginning of Time? I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin. Do you really think you can avoid it? You poor, shivering worm. You will serve me or die! And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death. The grave belongs to the Great Lord of the Dark. This time if you die, you will be destroyed utterly. This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold. Serve me! Serve Shai'tan, or be destroyed forever!"

 

Oh,...and while I'm here actually posting..I might as well add this too;

I see everyone posting "the Creator will not intervene/ take no part".

 

IT IS NOT HERE.

 

It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.

 

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

 

"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. "Where?"

 

The haze surrounding him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.

 

NOT HERE.

 

Then Him communicating with Rand at the end of TEotW is a pretty nasty paradox.

Saying "I will take no part" is in fact "taking a part".

And sharing intell about where and who should use a certain power source, is actually actively 'taking a part'...(a pretty big one at that)

 

For an omnipotent benevolent being, that's either;

a; a mistake

b; untrue

 

I just find it very odd.

Not just the fact that this actually happened, but also that people seem to derive from this self-contradictory statement, that the Creator doesn't intervene.

 

Anyway... love the discussions and the food for thought. Thanks @ all.

 

Mik

 

Thanks for bringing up that obvious contridiction.    I remember thinking about that a long time ago, but I had completely forgotten about it.    It was good to see it put in clear display as you did.

[lou]

First off, I'd like to say I really like what you posted Luckers (the first post) and that I'm usually just lurking and reading all the interesting discussion and theories.

 

At the risk of side-tracking this discussion, I'd like to post this anyway, because every time someone brings it up, it irks me somehow;

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the healing someone who has been stilled?

 

That ones a yes. Between the darkfriend grapevine in the Black Ajah, monitering Moghedian in order to bring her out of Salidar, Aran'gar and Moghedian herself, the Dark One knew.

 

QUESTION: Did the Dark One know about the necessity for cross-gender healing of severing to restore you to full strength?

 

Probably not. Even if he did, the male method had not been discovered at that stage, so its a bit of a moot point.

The Great Lord of the Dark doesn't forget gained knowledge, I assume. It's a small assumption IMO, since he's as close to omnipotent as it gets.

 

So, considering the fact that the Wheel has been turning for a thousand times a thousand times*... and the fact that there are a quazillion* worlds out there that are all watched & touched (partly) by this being outside of time (in other words; is not affected by the wheels turnings whatsoever), I find it very hard to belief He doesn't know about how to 'heal' stilling the proper way.

 

We -as readers- look at just one small part of the Wheel turning when we read, but we must realise the Creator can look at the bigger picture. And -to a lesser extend-, so can the Dark One. (because he can only touch the Wheel partly & only at certain sections of it's turning)

Yet, the Dark One is around when the True Source is used (since the True Source gateway need to penetrate TAR for him to touch the world), so what is the chance of him not knowing about stilling & how to mutate it so it works fully again?

 

That chance is as close to zero as it gets..

Right?

 

 

---

"I have a thousand strings tied to you, Kinslayer, each one finer than silk and stronger than steel. Time has tied a thousand cords between us. The battle we two have fought-do you remember any part of that? Do you have any glimmering that we have fought before, battles without number back to the beginning of Time? I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin. Do you really think you can avoid it? You poor, shivering worm. You will serve me or die! And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death. The grave belongs to the Great Lord of the Dark. This time if you die, you will be destroyed utterly. This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold. Serve me! Serve Shai'tan, or be destroyed forever!"

 

 

 

 

 

i think it was robert who once posted on another thread "ishmael is a lying liar who lies"

you might want to take what ishmael says with a grain of salt, he is the betrayer of hope.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

The Great Lord of the Dark doesn't forget gained knowledge, I assume. It's a small assumption IMO, since he's as close to omnipotent as it gets.

 

So, considering the fact that the Wheel has been turning for a thousand times a thousand times*... and the fact that there are a quazillion* worlds out there that are all watched & touched (partly) by this being outside of time (in other words; is not affected by the wheels turnings whatsoever), I find it very hard to belief He doesn't know about how to 'heal' stilling the proper way.

 

We -as readers- look at just one small part of the Wheel turning when we read, but we must realise the Creator can look at the bigger picture. And -to a lesser extend-, so can the Dark One. (because he can only touch the Wheel partly & only at certain sections of it's turning)

Yet, the Dark One is around when the True Source is used (since the True Source gateway need to penetrate TAR for him to touch the world), so what is the chance of him not knowing about stilling & how to mutate it so it works fully again?

 

That chance is as close to zero as it gets..

Right?

 

We don't actually know that the Wheel has turned countless times. For all we know, it's still on the second turning. Seriously. And with that, the DO might not actually have known that there is a way to heal stilling until not too long ago. Also, there is no evidence that there ever has been an age in which stilling has been healed.

 

The Wheel is supposed to be an upward-climbing spiral. And saying that, perhaps learning to heal stilling is one of the advances of this age.

 

Also, the DO is limited as to what he knows by two criteria: Proximity of occurence to Shayol Ghul.

How much his servants tell him.

 

Demandred remarks in Lord of Chaos that there were some things that the DO knew that he was surprised he knew, and other things he didn't know which were surprising. If he sees all things, then this doesn't really fit him, does it.

 

Also, one might assume that while his prison was sealed naturally he was unable to see anything.

 

And as for the bit about the Creator: While saying that he would take no part was taking a part, what he was saying could be interpreted as stating that he would take no part in the events to come. Since that might seem to make it less of an enigma and might reveal too much, RJ stuck with what he said without bothering to clarify.

 

 

[Mik]

i think it was robert who once posted on another thread "ishmael is a lying liar who lies"

you might want to take what ishmael says with a grain of salt, he is the betrayer of hope.

Errr..sorry, but 'wrong'. Yes, he's the Betrayer of Hope, but not because he's some liar, but because he truly understands how the Wheel works, how to manipulate it & works towards the real goal of the Dark.

Did you forget what he was before he turned to the Dark?

He's a genius and like most geniuses, that is interpreted as madness, because he's hard to understand. *shrugs*

 

And oh yes, if he can further his goals by lying, he will -and does just that-, but to discard all he says to be lying is folly and unfounded.

I'm pretty sure RAW would agree there.

 

Frankly, I think the only part he's lying about -or bending the truth- in the quoted section, are the last three lines. The rest is true.

 

We don't actually know that the Wheel has turned countless times. For all we know, it's still on the second turning. Seriously.

Seriously?

Oh yes we do know for sure the Wheel has turned for "battles without number back to the beginning of Time" (ishamael), "again & again" (hawkwing), "times beyond number" (hawkwing).

Then there's the fact that it would be pretty damned wierd to start a series about a world without beginning nor end..that just started turning!

Next to Ishamaels words

 

The Great Hunt - The grave is no bar to my Call;

 

"Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

../ /..

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself.

If you will not take it from the greatest philosopher there ever was, you might take it from hawkwing & the heroes who are tied to the Wheel.(I'm pretty sure a 'hero' wouldnt lie about it..or let it slide if Hawkwing was lying..)

 

And with that, the DO might not actually have known that there is a way to heal stilling until not too long ago. Also, there is no evidence that there ever has been an age in which stilling has been healed.

Well, your point about the Wheel having turned twice is wrong, so I disagree with you on this point.

And you're right about the whole Age thing; there is no proof. Not that that matters much..as legend fades to myth etc etc..

Think just a tad bigger here..as in 'Turnings' of the Wheel. Ages are just a small part of a turn. As in years compared to a millenium.

"There no proof a vulcano erupted the past few years, hence vulcanos cannot errupt"..?

Uhhh...

 

You give Nyn too much credit. Sure, she did something fantastic that hasn't been done in the known world for a few Ages...but to think it never happened in paralel worlds and/or other turnings.. shhh.

That's like saying Travelling is new to this Turning.

 

The Wheel is supposed to be an upward-climbing spiral. And saying that, perhaps learning to heal stilling is one of the advances of this age.

First off, what makes you say it's an 'upward-climbing spiral'? I'm not suggesting I'm disagreeing per se, but is there any proof?

Second, for the Dark One to be able to touch the Pattern, he needs 'help' from the other side of the fence. The 'bore' (just a cool name for a hole woven with saidar and saidin) is 'drilled' (read; woven) in every turning..and up untill now, it's been fixed every single time. That means there must have been people channeling the Power when he could touch the world..and that untill he was sealed again, there must have been people around to wield that same Power.

And to be able to weave both saidin & saidar into a gateway through time/space there must have been a fairly high level of knowledge every single turning for it to occur.

Ditto for the closing of the bore.

So, in every Age the Dark One is around, there's people wielding the Power the (w)hole time! (stupid pun... I know.. sue me)

 

And somewhere between the opening and the closing of the hole to the 'prison'(such a stupid word really..), in all those paralel worlds that are out there ..in all those turnings.. with all those people wielding the Power.. NOONE showed THE Great Lord of the Dark, the Essence of Evil, the Wicked Eye in the Sky (that almost won untill Mr Kinslayer put a huge Power-wrought sock in the hole) a weave that heals stilling.

 

I higly doubt that the Dark One never saw it... so why is Cyndane healed by a woman?

It's just...wieeerd.

 

Also, the DO is limited as to what he knows by two criteria: Proximity of occurence to Shayol Ghul.

How much his servants tell him.

Read the above section. Look at the bigger picture; countless paralel worlds.. during countless turnings..?

FYI, His influence isn't static you know. That's also straight from the books..and I'm sure we'll see just how UNstatic it really is, in AMoL (can't wait!  ;))

 

Demandred remarks in Lord of Chaos that there were some things that the DO knew that he was surprised he knew' date=' and other things he didn't know which were surprising. If he sees all things, then this doesn't really fit him, does it.[/quote']

You bend my words. You say "Sam didn't see the fire that burned last night, so he doesn't know how to make fire".

I'm saying "How on earth can you say someone with unlimited time and unlimited tries and unlimited worlds every try, did NOT see a fire?"

For someone to witness lightning, he doesn't need to see every thunderstorm out there.

 

Also' date=' one might assume that while his prison was sealed naturally he was unable to see anything.[/quote']I said that the first time around.

Still, countless quarters of an hour, is still a (near?) infinite amount of time... is it not? It's also safe to assume that the biggest part of the time of a Turning that He's sealed up, that Power usage is at it's lowest. Not that it's relevant..but meh.

 

And as for the bit about the Creator: While saying that he would take no part was taking a part' date=' what he was saying [b']could be interpreted [/b] as stating that he would take no part in the events to come. Since that might seem to make it less of an enigma and might reveal too much, RJ stuck with what he said without bothering to clarify.

RJ made a mistake by letting an omnipotent benevolent being be unclear & plain lying. :) *shrugs*

 

But my point was that it's not proof he will not intervene at some point.

Wich isn't me saying he will, I just find it annyoing lots of people seem to think he won't intervene based on that wierd passage.

 

[Despair]

So much about the Creator. RJ is he.  He can make Rand fly and shoot lightning out of his ass that only kills forsaken.  We have to wait and see.  So many dicrepancies exist over the 12 books that not even the Demi-Creator (named Editor) could address.  Not worth arguing.

[Lord_Naryb]

I know someone has discussed this on other threads, but doesn't it seem odd that if the DO knew stilling could be healed he didn't tell the rest of the Forsaken. Remember the Forsaken were shocked that stilling could be healed.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

i think it was robert who once posted on another thread "ishmael is a lying liar who lies"

you might want to take what ishmael says with a grain of salt, he is the betrayer of hope.

Errr..sorry, but 'wrong'.

Maybe you don't realize this, saying something like that really makes you come off as quite pompous and arrogant.

Yes, he's the Betrayer of Hope, but not because he's some liar, but because he truly understands how the Wheel works, how to manipulate it & works towards the real goal of the Dark.

Evidence to indicate that this is true? None. This is assumption. Just because what Ishy says makes sense, and might be true, doesn't mean it is.

Did you forget what he was before he turned to the Dark?

He's a genius and like most geniuses, that is interpreted as madness, because he's hard to understand. *shrugs*

Sounds like your talking from personal experience, here. Let's make the general, broad, overarching assumption that since this statement based on what we have seen from our experience, it must be true. Obviously, if that really worked, truth would have a million contradictions or everyone would come to the same conclusions.

 

And oh yes, if he can further his goals by lying, he will -and does just that-, but to discard all he says to be lying is folly and unfounded.

Did anyone say that all he said was a lie? No, no one did.

I'm pretty sure RAW would agree there.

 

Frankly, I think the only part he's lying about -or bending the truth- in the quoted section, are the last three lines. The rest is true.

 

Thats an opinion. As such, I respect it, but don't expect me to agree with you.

We don't actually know that the Wheel has turned countless times. For all we know, it's still on the second turning. Seriously.

Seriously?

Oh yes we do know for sure the Wheel has turned for "battles without number back to the beginning of Time" (ishamael), "again & again" (hawkwing), "times beyond number" (hawkwing).

Then there's the fact that it would be pretty damned wierd to start a series about a world without beginning nor end..that just started turning!

 

Next to Ishamaels words

 

The Great Hunt - The grave is no bar to my Call;

 

"Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh." He was looking at Rand.

../ /..

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself.

If you will not take it from the greatest philosopher there ever was, you might take it from hawkwing & the heroes who are tied to the Wheel.(I'm pretty sure a 'hero' wouldnt lie about it..or let it slide if Hawkwing was lying..)

Well. First, accepting that Ishy might have lied eliminated one source. Secondly, Hawkwing does say time and time again. So that disproves what I said.

 

However, logically, it isn't truly countless, or truly infinite, unless we want to believe that the Creator invented time as well.

 

It was created at one point, and moved from there.

And with that, the DO might not actually have known that there is a way to heal stilling until not too long ago. Also, there is no evidence that there ever has been an age in which stilling has been healed.

Well, your point about the Wheel having turned twice is wrong, so I disagree with you on this point.

And you're right about the whole Age thing; there is no proof. Not that that matters much..as legend fades to myth etc etc..

Think just a tad bigger here..as in 'Turnings' of the Wheel. Ages are just a small part of a turn. As in years compared to a millenium.

"There no proof a vulcano erupted the past few years, hence vulcanos cannot errupt"..?

Uhhh...

 

You give Nyn too much credit. Sure, she did something fantastic that hasn't been done in the known world for a few Ages...but to think it never happened in paralel worlds and/or other turnings.. shhh.

That's like saying Travelling is new to this Turning.

 

The Wheel is supposed to be an upward-climbing spiral. And saying that, perhaps learning to heal stilling is one of the advances of this age.

First off, what makes you say it's an 'upward-climbing spiral'? I'm not suggesting I'm disagreeing per se, but is there any proof?

Second, for the Dark One to be able to touch the Pattern, he needs 'help' from the other side of the fence. The 'bore' (just a cool name for a hole woven with saidar and saidin) is 'drilled' (read; woven) in every turning..and up untill now, it's been fixed every single time. That means there must have been people channeling the Power when he could touch the world..and that untill he was sealed again, there must have been people around to wield that same Power.

And to be able to weave both saidin & saidar into a gateway through time/space there must have been a fairly high level of knowledge every single turning for it to occur.

Ditto for the closing of the bore.

So, in every Age the Dark One is around, there's people wielding the Power the (w)hole time! (stupid pun... I know.. sue me)

Well, here is a mistake. To use your own words against you "There no proof a vulcano erupted the past few years, hence vulcanos cannot errupt"..?

 

Uhh.

 

Just because we haven't seen the bore fixed with something other than the OP doesn't mean it can't be done. The burden of proof is on you.

 

And somewhere between the opening and the closing of the hole to the 'prison'(such a stupid word really..)

Is it just me, or does this sound like arrogance as well? Everybody knows it isn't a prison. Everyone knows that it is called a prison because that is the easiest/only way to explain it in human terms, and that while it may not be completely fitting, it does fit, to an extent.

..., in all those paralel worlds that are out there ..in all those turnings.. with all those people wielding the Power.. NOONE showed THE Great Lord of the Dark, the Essence of Evil, the Wicked Eye in the Sky (that almost won untill Mr Kinslayer put a huge Power-wrought sock in the hole) a weave that heals stilling.

 

I higly doubt that the Dark One never saw it... so why is Cyndane healed by a woman?

It's just...wieeerd.

 

Hmm. So what solution do you propose...?

 

RJ has said that progress is possible in the Wheel, and was quoted as saying it was an upward trending spiral. Perhaps RAW can give me the link for this, because I can't seem to find it, but he is always good at that sort of thing.

 

Accepting that progress is possible makes it more likely that Nynaeve is the first.

 

Also, we know that the Wheel sometimes makes ages where channeling is impossible, and sometimes where some abilities can't be used...so why wouldn't be possible that healing the ability to channel couldn't be done before? Like, literally impossible because the Wheel patterned it so.

 

Let's not forget that nobody knew how to do it in the AoL, and that society was way more advanced and full of smarter people than Nynaeve, who had been channeling for 5-6 years at most (guesstimate). How is it possible that no one thought to try to use all five powers to heal before?

Also, the DO is limited as to what he knows by two criteria: Proximity of occurence to Shayol Ghul.

How much his servants tell him.

Read the above section. Look at the bigger picture; countless paralel worlds.. during countless turnings..?

FYI, His influence isn't static you know. That's also straight from the books..and I'm sure we'll see just how UNstatic it really is, in AMoL (can't wait!  ;))

"You know.." No sh*t, Sherlock. The larger he rips the bore upon, or the more damage is done to the seals, the more influence he has on the world.

Demandred remarks in Lord of Chaos that there were some things that the DO knew that he was surprised he knew' date=' and other things he didn't know which were surprising. If he sees all things, then this doesn't really fit him, does it.[/quote']

You bend my words. You say "Sam didn't see the fire that burned last night, so he doesn't know how to make fire".

I'm saying "How on earth can you say someone with unlimited time and unlimited tries and unlimited worlds every try, did NOT see a fire?"

The Wheel hasn't spun for forever. Thus, not countless turns. Upward trend again, so healing stilling could be a first. What's to say it isn't? After all, it wasn't done in the AoL, which, according to the upward trend rule, must have been one of the most sophisticated ages yet due to lack of the DO.

For someone to witness lightning, he doesn't need to see every thunderstorm out there.

 

Also' date=' one might assume that while his prison was sealed naturally he was unable to see anything.[/quote']I said that the first time around.

Still, countless quarters of an hour, is still a (near?) infinite amount of time... is it not? It's also safe to assume that the biggest part of the time of a Turning that He's sealed up, that Power usage is at it's lowest. Not that it's relevant..but meh.

 

And as for the bit about the Creator: While saying that he would take no part was taking a part' date=' what he was saying [b']could be interpreted [/b] as stating that he would take no part in the events to come. Since that might seem to make it less of an enigma and might reveal too much, RJ stuck with what he said without bothering to clarify.

RJ made a mistake by letting an omnipotent benevolent being be unclear & plain lying. :) *shrugs*

Well, what is the point of RJ lying to us. He is either lying to us, or the Creator is. Either that, or, of course, it was not meant to be seen as a contradiction.

 

But my point was that it's not proof he will not intervene at some point.

Wich isn't me saying he will, I just find it annyoing lots of people seem to think he won't intervene based on that wierd passage.

 

"Annoying..." "...wierd." Sorry that we haven't been enlightened. And I'm sorry it's one of your pet peeves. But don't expect me to watch what I say or tread on eggshells just because what I say might be one of some random person's pet peeves.

 

Let me restate that: Who really cares if you find it annoying?

 

[Trib4l]

I'd like to see other's thoughts on Majsju's and I's posts from the last page regarding stilling and new bodies.

[Darkness Incarnated]

I'd like to see other's thoughts on Majsju's and I's posts from the last page regarding stilling and new bodies.

 

That gets me stuck as well. If I remember Nynaeve's thoughts well, she remarks that there is something missing, or severed, some type of void. It seemed to me that that implied a physical connection, i.e. it's the body that suffers when you are stilled, not the soul. As far as I can remember, no humans can work directly with soul (if they even know what it is exactly), which would be what Nynaeve and Flinn did, if the soul is affected by stilling as well. The Dark One seems to be the only one able to work directly with souls.

In other words what Nynaeve and Flinn did would be healing the soul? ???

 

If Lanfear was stilled while in Finnland or even afterwards, then died, it stands to reason that her new body should have an intact connection. It was the connection to her former body that was broken, as Trib41 and Majsju point out.

 

[Luckers]

On the whole, im not going to get involved in this conversation again.

 

But, that being said, and in complete hypocrisy, what makes you think that the ethric cannot be severed? Nynaeve speaks of a sensation of severing... why is this intrinsically physical? If channeling is a function of the soul, and it is cut, would it not be severed?

 

We know the soul has defined nature. From the descriptions of Perrin by wolves when he is searching for Faile as being too strongly in TAR and the descriptions of Egwene's waking dreamwalking as only being very partially in TAR we know that part of the soul can reach out beyond the body, and we know to varying extents. This establishes definition, and destinction, and therefore allows for 'severing'.

 

So... yeah? What implies this physicality to the nature of what is severed.