Verin and her 70 year project

[Darth_Andrea]

I think Verin is like a Siuan/Moiraine who just has more info than they. Perhaps Corianin wrote down her dreams as well. Well, I think Cadsuane knew about Rand from Tamra early on, but Verin perhaps got hold of the notes, and she could expect some things to happen. If she has been at it alone all this time, the only way for her to have escaped notice is to be very careful indeed. And she has vast notes, though all in flowerish. If Verin suspected Rand to be born, Siuan and Moiraine and other happenings at News Spring would have easily caught her attention. Though Verin had gotten herself close to those to with the sweetcakes too.

 

I think Verin is good, but thinks about the Last Battle and not whatever it is the folks are doing, so she is just very careful and trusts the Pattern. Doesn't give Egwene notes which might mean she does learn in some other way or the like. But that's just what I think.

 

It's possiable that in Corianin's notes that there was a dreaming about a merging of the Wise one's and the tower, because of Egwene's training with them, Egwene has links to so many things that could bolster the tower in so many ways that I think alot of what is in those notes pretain to her.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

 

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

It is possible, if the merger truly happens. It will have to be a very significant thing for Corianin to have a dream about, though, so I don't know.

 

One thing that occurs to me is that Corianin, being a Dreamer, could very well have come across Aiel Dreamwalkers. Not to know them, but perhaps mentioned them. In Great Hunt, Verin was excited when she learned from Urien that Wise Ones can channel, which is something to be excited about perhaps, even though most Aes Sedai would only mutter 'wilders,' but perhaps Verin could put three and three together and decide that Aiel Wise Ones could dreamwalk, some of them. After that exchange, Verin began muttering about new things being brought into the Pattern, which possibly meant the Aiel or something else, but it is possible that this was also one reason for her to keep the Beginners Guide to Tel'aran'rhiod by Corianin Nedeal from Egwene. By Giving it Verin would be again drawing attention to herself, and assuming Corianin had mentioned the Aiel in her notes, she had every possibility to reason out the Aiel Dreamwalkers might enter the stage with the People of the Dragon. Well, this is somewhat speculation, but that is what it think at the moment.  ;D

[Guest cwestervelt]

The Aiel Wise Ones knew about Corianin.  I can't look it up right now, but they were rather scornful of her abilities.  They gave the impression that Corianin never did more than scratch the surface.

 

I expect Corianin just tried to figure things out on her own and never had a teacher.  There was no one in the Tower who could have taught her, she would have been a full Aes Sedai before ever being able to go and study elsewhere.  Considering Aes Sedai attitudes, she certainly wouldn't have consented to study from Wilders.

 

The only reason Egwene was able to go to them was because she was out of the Tower as an Accepted.  The only reason Egwene knew where to go is she was wishing for a teacher and got dropped in front of Amys.  Amys then tracked her down and told her to come to the Waste.

[Graendals favourite]

Good, then Corianin knew about the Wise Ones. Since she made notes, it is even likely Verin knew of a connection between Aiel 'dreamers' and the world of dreams. Her hearing of an organised society of Wise Ones who can channel should ring a bell.

 

On the other, it would be as I thought, though it requires an assumption on Verin's person, that she put trust in the Pattern: the Aiel were coming, so it was possible Egwene might find help there if the Wheel willed it. The Pattern in action. The scene in tGH supports this, though nothing conclusive. It's a possibility.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Sorry Luckers, but you are assuming far too much from what I said.

 

The Wise One's knew about Corianin.  Nothing says Corianin knew about the Wise Ones.  It is likely, given the Wise One's attitude toward her abilities, that Corianin did not know there were other Dreamers.

[Majsju]

Sorry Luckers, but you are assuming far too much from what I said.

 

The Wise One's knew about Corianin.  Nothing says Corianin knew about the Wise Ones.  It is likely, given the Wise One's attitude toward her abilities, that Corianin did not know there were other Dreamers.

 

Indeed, and given the Wise Ones attitude towards Aes sedai in general, I doubt they would allow Corianin to discover them.

[Auld Manriva]

Exactly! Corianin would never have known they were there and watching her muddle her way through Dreamland adventures. Exposing Aes Sedai, in general,  for the stumblebums they had become, and have proven themselves to be since, and not the all knowing geniuses they liked to portray themselves as.

 

As an aside. What is the .... attraction, for lack of a better word people have to try and dissect and find meaning in a not yet completed story? Wait a book and you'll find out. If not; Then try and answer the great unanswered questions humanity will strive to learn for decades about a simple story. This ain't The Bible, thank the light.

 

It's a simple story, godawful long and drawn out as it is. With commentaries about the nature of real happenings that become distorted; through telling over time and distance to become legend and in some cases religion. And the nature of Prophecy, which is specious conjecture to begin with, being interpreted differently by every single reader or listener to something of their own choosing.

 

Thats what this is. And it's not finished yet.

[Luckers]

Sorry Luckers, but you are assuming far too much from what I said.

 

What? The only thing I've addressed of yours in this thread was Verin's comment in reguards to her seventy years of planning... and all i did was supply a quote. Or were you addressing Graendal's Favourite?

 

Incidently I agree with your position. And if the Wise Ones did not want to be discovered, I imagine someone as untrained and weak in the dreaming as Corianin would not have been able to find them.

[GrandpaG]

Exactly! Corianin would never have known they were there and watching her muddle her way through Dreamland adventures. Exposing Aes Sedai, in general,  for the stumblebums they had become, and have proven themselves to be since, and not the all knowing geniuses they liked to portray themselves as.

 

As an aside. What is the .... attraction, for lack of a better word people have to try and dissect and find meaning in a not yet completed story? Wait a book and you'll find out. If not; Then try and answer the great unanswered questions humanity will strive to learn for decades about a simple story. This ain't The Bible, thank the light.

 

It's a simple story, godawful long and drawn out as it is. With commentaries about the nature of real happenings that become distorted; through telling over time and distance to become legend and in some cases religion. And the nature of Prophecy, which is specious conjecture to begin with, being interpreted differently by every single reader or listener to something of their own choosing.

 

Thats what this is. And it's not finished yet.

 

Entertainment.

Enjoyment.

Excitement.

Envolvement.

Environment.

Excrament.

Element.

Enstrement.

Efferment.

Ebarnacralament.

 

(Sorry...couldn't resist)

(I really did enjoy reading your post)

(It's just getting late and nobody wants to play in Fiddlesticks)

(Plus, if I spam over here, I get another post credit point!)  ;D

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, I got a little carried away by the theorising. Fun though, but yea, I can't see the Wise Ones changing their avoiding Aes Sedai at that point.

[Despair]

Wow, some huge theories on this one.  I think many are reading way to deep into this one.  I think it was about book 7 or so, but I started to think she was a darkfriend.  After reading every book at least 4 times, except for Knife O D, she has always been in the right place, right time, and very good at it.  There is no obvious benefit to her being close to the T'averen 3, but there she is, trying to manipulate events.  I think we will find out in the last book that she is evil.  Maybe just me.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Sorry Luckers, but you are assuming far too much from what I said.

 

What? The only thing I've addressed of yours in this thread was Verin's comment in reguards to her seventy years of planning... and all i did was supply a quote. Or were you addressing Graendal's Favourite?

 

Incidently I agree with your position. And if the Wise Ones did not want to be discovered, I imagine someone as untrained and weak in the dreaming as Corianin would not have been able to find them.

 

My mistake.  It was Graendal's Favorite.  Misread who posted. :-[

[The Lost One]

Does anyone know what Verin was instructing the sisters to do that she used compulsion on?  I am assuming this went along with whatever her project is. 

[Charlz Guybon]

Does anyone know what Verin was instructing the sisters to do that she used compulsion on?  I am assuming this went along with whatever her project is. 

 

To swear fealty to Rand.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Compulsion is such a nasty, vile word.  How dare you consider Verin guilty of such a heinous crime. >:(

 

Seriously though, Verin didn't use Compulsion although she admits to herself the Tower would regard what she did do as much the same thing.  She did not force anyone to swear fealty to Rand, she just implanted a strong desire to do so.  The other Aes Sedai still needed their own reasons to actually swear.

[Charlz Guybon]

Compulsion is such a nasty, vile word.  How dare you consider Verin guilty of such a heinous crime. >:(

 

Seriously though, Verin didn't use Compulsion although she admits to herself the Tower would regard what she did do as much the same thing.  She did not force anyone to swear fealty to Rand, she just implanted a strong desire to do so.  The other Aes Sedai still needed their own reasons to actually swear.

 

I think it still counts. IIRC Graendal thinks to herself that that kind of compulsion is the best kind.

[Luckers]

Charlz makes a good point, as can be seen through Elza. The self rationalized obedience to the compulsion seems to be much stronger than the complete suplementation of will like Rhavin did to Morgase.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Stronger if it works because the person wouldn't always have the sense of something being wrong.

 

I actually see it as more like happens because of Rand being Ta'veren.  It needs to be something the subject would have had a chance of doing however unlikely it might have seen.

[Luckers]

The sisters in the tents turned to Rand because of Rand's ta'verenism? Thats seems a bit extreme... I mean we have Verin compelling them, and the distance between them and Rand must have limited the effect of his ta'verenism, especially with him travelling around.

 

Or am I misunderstanding you completely? Were you saying that Verin's compulsion works akin to the ta'verenism, that it requires some underlying wish to do as they are compelled for it to work. If so, than i dont see the contention... thats exactly how Verin's method works, and that exactly why its stronger... because the subject isn't fighting the compulsion--and that in turn is exactly why both Graendal and Moghedian have cited that method as the more powerful form of compulsion.

[Charlz Guybon]

The sisters in the tents turned to Rand because of Rand's ta'verenism? Thats seems a bit extreme... I mean we have Verin compelling them, and the distance between them and Rand must have limited the effect of his ta'verenism, especially with him travelling around.

 

Or am I misunderstanding you completely? Were you saying that Verin's compulsion works akin to the ta'verenism, that it requires some underlying wish to do as they are compelled for it to work. If so, than i dont see the contention... thats exactly how Verin's method works, and that exactly why its stronger... because the subject isn't fighting the compulsion--and that in turn is exactly why both Graendal and Moghedian have cited that method as the more powerful form of compulsion.

 

He means that as with a ta'varen there must be an underlying chance for something to happen, in order for it to happen. A ta'varen can make you do something even if there was only a one in 100,000 chance you would have done it, but they can't make you do something that there was no chance you would have done it. Verin's compulsion works the same way. It forces a person to come up with a reason to justify the suggestion. If they do the compulsion is virtually impossible to break, but if they can't come up with a reason, then the compulsion won't work.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The sisters in the tents turned to Rand because of Rand's ta'verenism? Thats seems a bit extreme... I mean we have Verin compelling them, and the distance between them and Rand must have limited the effect of his ta'verenism, especially with him travelling around.

 

Or am I misunderstanding you completely? Were you saying that Verin's compulsion works akin to the ta'verenism, that it requires some underlying wish to do as they are compelled for it to work. If so, than i dont see the contention... thats exactly how Verin's method works, and that exactly why its stronger... because the subject isn't fighting the compulsion--and that in turn is exactly why both Graendal and Moghedian have cited that method as the more powerful form of compulsion.

 

He means that as with a ta'varen there must be an underlying chance for something to happen, in order for it to happen. A ta'varen can make you do something even if there was only a one in 100,000 chance you would have done it, but they can't make you do something that there was no chance you would have done it. Verin's compulsion works the same way. It forces a person to come up with a reason to justify the suggestion. If they do the compulsion is virtually impossible to break, but if they can't come up with a reason, then the compulsion won't work.

 

Charlz hit the nail on the head.

[Luckers]

In which case what is your position on my response to that? In the second paragraph.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think he was agreeing with you, in principle ....

[Luckers]

Ah ok... i was just confused... i mean... that was always the position and yet it was offered in a way that seemed contentious.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I'm splitting a hair and trying to skirt around other things I don't want to think about...

 

Compulsion, by it's very name meens to force someone to do an act contrary to their will.  The target has no choice unless they themselves are very strong willed.  Technically, Verin didn't make anyone do anything, so she wasn't using Compulsion.  In fact, she wasn't making them do something they wouldn't conceivably have done on their own.  She just shifted chance a little.

 

And yes, I agree that, because what Verin did required the subject to have their own reasons, it is much more powerful.  If it works.  There is also a much better chance of the subject just not doing anything.

 

In ways, excepting Verin's actions as Compulsion forces me to look at Rand and see some justification for Egwene's anger.  Rand's very presense can cause people to act in the same way as Verin's weave.  Rand knows this and has used that deliberately.