S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:20 AM, Sabio said:

You could remove Loial and Siuan and would the book miss a beat?  After being deposed Siuan had some book time but did she really do anything important? To me Samm is another that really didn't do enough, that if it was taken out would've weakened the book.  Loial honestly could be removed entirely from the book.   I assume Allana is staying becuase of the bonding of Rand and they need someone to get stabbed in every episode.

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I mean at this rate the dark one himself could stand over Alanna in that final

scene, Nynave tell Alanna to end the bond and Alanna look at Nynaeve and say, “this is but a flesh wound, I have had much worse” 

 

(picturing the black knight from Monty python and the gold grail) 

[EmreY]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:31 PM, Scarloc99 said:

What, sorry statements like this make me wonder if people really understand the character arcs in the books. Siuan is the driving force behind Egwene’s ascension in the tower. No Siuan no making Egwene AS. No Siuan and the rebel Aes Sedai fold, no Siuan and all of that story thread. One of the key fav threads of most readers is gone. 

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Is there anything Siuan does that could not be done by someone else?  (I honestly don't remember.)

Edited April 19 by EmreY

[Scarloc99]

One thing that I think needed to be explained more is how Rand “knows” why Lewis Therin left her, we haven’t seen any indication that he has those memories or insights. 

[EmreY]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:38 PM, Scarloc99 said:

One thing that I think needed to be explained more is how Rand “knows” why Lewis Therin left her, we haven’t seen any indication that he has those memories or insights. 

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That knowledge is not indication?

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:34 PM, EmreY said:

Is there anything Siuan does that could not be done by someone else?  (I honestly don't remember.)

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So you create another character to take the part of a character who had that clear arc, that makes no sense. 
 

And no, who else understands the intricacies of tower politics and what it takes to rule all the ajahs? Siuan was unique. A former AS who is alive and able to mentor the new one. A situation that has never happened before. 
 

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:40 PM, Scarloc99 said:

who else understands the intricacies of tower politics and what it takes to rule all the ajahs?

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Leanne. 
Which, I suspect, is why we had several scenes of her attempting to advise Siuan only to be rebuffed. 

[EmreY]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:40 PM, Scarloc99 said:

So you create another character to take the part of a character who had that clear arc, that makes no sense. 
 

And no, who else understands the intricacies of tower politics and what it takes to rule all the ajahs? Siuan was unique. A former AS who is alive and able to mentor the new one. A situation that has never happened before. 
 

 

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I am afraid that this is where I have to disagree with you fundamentally.

 

First, regarding the politics of the White Tower, if I were interested in that, I would have entered politics, not picked up a fantasy book.  I must however confess that in my estimation, the politicking sections of the books are the most fantastic.  (By which I mean fantasy, not great.)

 

Second, there are any number of Aes Sedai already introduced who have been involved in Tower politics who could fulfill that role.  It would have been apt for Siuan to do so, but she gets sidelined in the books, and is IMHO not a necessary character.

 

Your comment also does not really answer the question: Is there anything Siuan did that someone else could not do?

Edited April 19 by EmreY

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:31 PM, Scarloc99 said:

One of the key fav threads of most readers is gone.

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What is it with people assuming that they speak for "most" of the fanbase. 

 

I thought the whole Salidar thing was a bit drawn out. While Suian is a master politician, she is also very young for an Aes Sedai in the books. Another Blue could be promoted, Leane could be revealed as Suian's campaign manager, Moiraine could advise her in the dream... Given the short screentime available it seems unlikely that this plot would be hugely developed. Plus the whole stilling story-line relies heavily on internal pov, how would you film what she was experiencing?

 

Having Suian die at the coup makes sense, when you have so much to prune. Whatever they do with things like Salidar, they cannot have the original cast of thousands for story lines that are only going to take up a few scenes. There will need to be a pro-Egwene faction and two opponents. Easy enough to find a mentor for her who can double up with another role (such as one of the informal council that was in charge as Suian could not be one of them as she was stilled). Also removing her removes the need to devote screen time to the relationship with Moiraine, or be criticised for not doing so. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

And also given the stature of the actress, it probably makes more sense to have Leane go forward as Suian/Leane if it is going to be a bit part, if they choose to do that, at least.

[EmreY]

If you will all permit me to indulge myself a little, I am going to try to create an analogy.  (Dangerous, I know.)

 

You got up this morning, did your usual morning things, brushed your teeth, turned on your PC to see this discussion, etc.  You did all this by yourself.

 

In the Wheel of Time, you would have a character to wake you up, another to serve you breakfast, another to brush your teeth, another to turn your PC on, and a gaggle of people would argue over what you should start typing.

 

 

All those characters are not necessary.

 

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:47 PM, EmreY said:

 

I am afraid that this is where I have to disagree with you fundamentally.

 

First, regarding the politics of the White Tower, if I were interested in that, I would have entered politics, not picked up a fantasy book.  I must however confess that in my estimation, the politicking sections of the books are the most fantastic.  (By which I mean fantasy, not great.)

 

Second, there are any number of Aes Sedai already introduced who have been involved in Tower politics who could fulfill that role.  It would have been apt for Siuan to do so, but she gets sidelined in the books, and is IMHO not a necessary character.

 

Your comment also does not really answer the question: Is there anything Siuan did that someone else could not do?

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The fact is in the books it’s Siuan’s arc, and there are many of us who think WOT is great because of the politics. I know for me if you took that out I would have probably ignored it and not bothered reading anymore. 
 

So RJ takes Siuan out and then creates a new character to do the same thing for egwene? That’s like saying does Rand have to be the dragon reborn, isn’t there another character who could end up fighting the last battle. RJ made certain characters to have certain roles in the story. I really see no point in the TV show in killing off a major character to then give her entire arc to another character? 

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:48 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

What is it with people assuming that they speak for "most" of the fanbase. 

 

I thought the whole Salidar thing was a bit drawn out. While Suian is a master politician, she is also very young for an Aes Sedai in the books. Another Blue could be promoted, Leane could be revealed as Suian's campaign manager, Moiraine could advise her in the dream... Given the short screentime available it seems unlikely that this plot would be hugely developed. Plus the whole stilling story-line relies heavily on internal pov, how would you film what she was experiencing?

 

Having Suian die at the coup makes sense, when you have so much to prune. Whatever they do with things like Salidar, they cannot have the original cast of thousands for story lines that are only going to take up a few scenes. There will need to be a pro-Egwene faction and two opponents. Easy enough to find a mentor for her who can double up with another role (such as one of the informal council that was in charge as Suian could not be one of them as she was stilled). Also removing her removes the need to devote screen time to the relationship with Moiraine, or be criticised for not doing so. 

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ok plenty of people like the political side. As many maybe as those who don’t. 
 

I am not sure the salidar story will be presented in anywhere near the same way. It seems clear the epic scene of an army of thousands pouring through the traveling gates to lay siege to Tar Valon won’t be coming. Maybe an “army” of 30 lol given the budget and seeming inability to film big battle moments. 
 

I think that’s my biggest issue with this show, a lack of ambition with budget and set piece battles. There is going to be no rings of power siege if Erigion, or got battle of the bastards. I gave them benefit of the doubt in season 1 because of covid. But I truly hoped the battle of the 2 rivers would be far grander and larger. Even if I am very happy to get a nighttime fight I could actually see on my tv 🙂 

Edited April 19 by Scarloc99

[Mailman]

Siuan I would say in the show is in no way a master politician.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

No one is talking about giving the entire arc to anyone else - we were specifically talking about someone being a mentor Egwene so that she isn't just natively the most astute politician for a thousand years (and indeed, do we even need to assume they would not just do that?). The show will not have any time to do any more than thumbnail sketch the political situation - probably something of two Aes Sedai being at loggerheads so both support Egwene to spite the other. There is no need to have the whole arc of Suian in there just to make that seem more believable. Heck, is Elayne not there for part of it? A bit of exposition in dialogue between the Wonder Girls, Nynaeve insults the Aes Sedai, Elayne gives some political advice, Egwene says "I'll never give in!", job done. And that is just one possibility.

 

You appear to be attaching an awful lot of import to what you would like to see, rather than accepting the show, even if perfectly done, cannot keep the level of detail that you seem to expect. Not with the screentime available. However much many people might hate losing Suian at this point, I don't understand how people cannot accept that it is a reasonable solution to triming down the narrative going forward, even if you don't agree with it.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/19/2025 at 1:20 PM, Scarloc99 said:

ok plenty of people like the political side. As many maybe as those who don’t. 

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But there isn't any point making claims on other people's behalf. There is not need to state your opinion - whether positive or negative - and then present this as the majority view in lieu of actual reasoning. If it is a popular view, we'll see it come from more than one person, repeatedly. 

 

I could be mistaken, but in series 2, did you not say that you knew a large number of non-readers who were greatly enjoying the show? How is this group of 60 odd people finding the third series? Or am I misremembering?

[wotfan4472]

  On 4/18/2025 at 8:00 PM, Sabio said:

As we have seen with Mats dagger from season 1 to the second season, the show easily could have made a mistake with the name.  Or they could easily just dump the snakes all together and anyone who hadn't read the books would be none the wiser, I mean with Mat and his questions, there is already going to be big changes that will need to occur.

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There is really only one change, and it is the last one. Instead of yelling at him to go to Rhuidean, they are going to yell go to The Fields Of Merrilor instead, or wherever the show is going to plop the Last Battle fight at.

 

With the same result, that Mat is going to be Mat and fight and scrape every which way NOT to do that, but end up doing it anyway.

 

I suspect the reason Mat has not done that yet, is because they do not know quite yet where the Last Battle will be fought in the show.

[DigificWriter]

I didn't really want to talk about this earli

[baalsmistress]

  On 4/19/2025 at 3:20 AM, VooDooNut said:

Well articulated. Just speaking to the emotion I'm feeling from your words, I'm also sad it's not the show I was hoping it would be. There are still moments that I get to enjoy though. I've definitely transitioned to not expecting as much from it, and that has helped me. And ultimately, the books are perfection, even in their imperfect form.

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From the very beginning, what I have done is picture the show as a different turning of the wheel to the books.

 

The overarching story is the same. The destination and most of the major players are the same. There are many common waypoints on the journey, but the details vary somewhat.

 

The one thing I have never been able to abide with TV adaptations has been fans of the source material seeking the cancellation of a show. I get that for any adaptation, there will be disappointment from some, many or even most fans of the original. But seeking cancellation has resulted in almost every adaptation of a major fantasy series ending before the story is told.

 

I pray that WoT doesn't suffer the same fate.

[DigificWriter]

I didn't really want to talk about this earlier, but the show did give us a "Ned Stark moment", just with a character that nobody was expecting.

[king of nowhere]

  On 4/19/2025 at 1:14 PM, Scarloc99 said:

The fact is in the books it’s Siuan’s arc, and there are many of us who think WOT is great because of the politics. I know for me if you took that out I would have probably ignored it and not bothered reading anymore. 
 

So RJ takes Siuan out and then creates a new character to do the same thing for egwene?

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why would egwene need a mentor to teach her politics?

egwene will be inexplicably good at politics from the first day she's thrown into the role. just like she's been inexplicably good at everything else.

i don't blame the script for this. it always happens in movies, and in most books. the only one who really worked hard for his skill is lan

Edited April 19 by king of nowhere

[DreadLord31]

  On 4/19/2025 at 9:35 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

I don't really see how Sammael should be kept.

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Because they set him up to be Asmodean. Why do multiple scenes on “I’m sending Rand a gift.” “He’ll be a crappy teacher…” ect? Only to kill him a few scenes later? 

 

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:27 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Alanna has the key moment at the end of the book series. Bonding Rand and then her death being the threat to force Rand to end the world. 

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Sure. But does anybody watching WotTv believe Alanna can die? Girls got more lives than a cat. 🐈 

 

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:31 PM, Scarloc99 said:

What, sorry statements like this make me wonder if people really understand the character arcs in the books. Siuan is the driving force behind Egwene’s ascension in the tower.

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Precisely; and you didn’t even mention that Siuan is also pivotal in Nyn’s development (healing stilling). And Elayne’s ascension (via Gareth Byrne). 

Edited April 20 by DreadLord31

[DreadLord31]

  On 4/19/2025 at 10:49 PM, DigificWriter said:

I didn't really want to talk about this earlier, but the show did give us a "Ned Stark moment", just with a character that nobody was expecting.

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Yeeeah; but because of all the fake-out deaths (Alanna, Liandrin, ect…) and then NOT following through on the deaths you set-up all season long (Mo & Lanfear). 
 

I really could care less that they killed Siuan and Loial & I’m pretty annoyed they didn’t kill Moiraine and Lanfear. 
 

But one could argue that’s very WoT of them; Jordan didn’t kill his main characters… Sanderson did … in a blaze of glorious fury! 

Edited April 20 by DreadLord31

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/20/2025 at 1:38 AM, DreadLord31 said:

because of all the fake-out deaths (Alanna, Liandrin, ect…

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Putting characters in mortal danger and then quickly resolving that danger does not equal 'fakeout death'.

 

Was it fair to pull back on Moiraine's death after 'Chechov's Gun'-ning it all season? That's debatable, but it did allow them to swerve us all with Siuan's death.

[DaddyFinn]

  On 4/20/2025 at 1:34 AM, DreadLord31 said:

Because they set him up to be Asmodean. Why do multiple scenes on “I’m sending Rand a gift.” “He’ll be a crappy teacher…” ect? Only to kill him a few scenes later? 

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Plans changed after Rand rejected Lanfear.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/19/2025 at 1:14 PM, Scarloc99 said:

The fact is in the books it’s Siuan’s arc, and there are many of us who think WOT is great because of the politics. I know for me if you took that out I would have probably ignored it and not bothered reading anymore. 
 

So RJ takes Siuan out and then creates a new character to do the same thing for egwene? That’s like saying does Rand have to be the dragon reborn, isn’t there another character who could end up fighting the last battle. RJ made certain characters to have certain roles in the story. I really see no point in the TV show in killing off a major character to then give her entire arc to another character? 

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I second that the politics is important; it shows that even in the face of armaggeddon, people will not align as a single force for good. People - good and evil - will still politic for personal advantage, and it's way harder to overcome that any old Dark One.  It's fundamental to the story to show all these conflicts, because it's fundamental to being a human being (which ties into the free will discussion in AMOL)

 

Now, does it have to be Siuan? Nah...Leanne can fill part of the role after she's stilled, and Verin can fill the counselor role, which will have another big advantage later on. Or Leanne can do both. Or Sheriam's still around, I think.