S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:00 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Next season Rand takes tear and fights the dark one potentially, 

 

Or if we are lucky next season Rand takes tear and then we get a season building to the last battle. 
 

I really don’t see how we have time to do the Rand live stories with all 3 women and save moraine and cleanse the source and everything else that needs to happen, including Egwenes story which is clearly now going to be her teaching herself how to politic to the Amyrilian Seat with no help. 

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We'll be lucky if we even get Nynaeve healing stilling.

Hell, she may straight up resurrect Siuan, since they really focused in on how you can't bring back the dead this season. (Which also means we're likely getting a new Sammy in the future, cause... lord of the grave and all)

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:00 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Next season Rand takes tear and fights the dark one potentially, 

 

Or if we are lucky next season Rand takes tear and then we get a season building to the last battle. 
 

I really don’t see how we have time to do the Rand live stories with all 3 women and save moraine and cleanse the source and everything else that needs to happen, including Egwenes story which is clearly now going to be her teaching herself how to politic to the Amyrilian Seat with no help. 
 

 

 

 

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I’m also not convinced that Moiraine means enough to Rand that we should spend story “killing” her and retrieving her.  They tried to clean that up in this episode with the talk that Rand had with her, but I thought it was sketchy reasoning at best.  I think I’m more in the camp that Moiraine would become Caddy, who is part protagonist, part mentor.

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/18/2025 at 3:28 PM, Mirefox said:

I’ve tried to never attack anyone’s feeling about the show.  I’ve never said anyone can’t like it, or shouldn’t.  I would love to have straight objective discussions but from my background I could probably write a treatise on literary and rational missteps this show has taken from the opening scenes and when I bring them up I am summarily dismissed by a handful who don’t differentiate between opinion and concern about rational, logical story structuring.  Wanting the show to demonstrate a level of craftsmanship that I would hope for with such a compelling source should be a desire absolutely everyone here has but some are as unwilling  to check their positive feelings at the door as those who have a vehement dislike.

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So I was def the former in the first 2 seasons, I have stated for a long time that books 1-3 are repetitive, probably would have been so so different had RJ known from day 1 he had as many books as he needed and they needed to be seriously truncated for TV. 
 

But, season 3, while by far the strongest season so far, has for me just dropped the ball that was the strongest book. I don’t think this is all Rafes fault, I would love to see a Wheel of Time with Rings of Power budget, it seems we are relegated to “battles” consisting of tens of warriors fighting in them instead of thousands. I would have loved to see Amazon commit up front to how many season there would be. Ironically It feels that Rafe has the same issue RJ had, not knowing if the next season/book would be his last. 
 

there have been some things that have hit the mark, watching with a non book reader some of the scenes have hit her hard, but my own good will is slowly sapping away. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:59 PM, DigificWriter said:

I'll concede the possibility that Elaida met both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn but that Alviaren only namechecked the Aelfinn, but then you have to answer the question of why Mat also didn't meet both species.

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Much respect, but you're kind of muddled on this issue.

(1) There's no reason to think Elaida met the Aelfinn at all. She came back with gifts - one of those may be that she become the Amyrlin Seat. The Eelfinn give gifts.

(2) There's no reason to think that Alviarin knew exactly what Elaida did there. She namedropped both types of Finn because both exist, and sisters are known to have encountered both types.

(3) Mat only met the Eelfinn on his first trip through the doorway as well. This is not a question that needs to be answered at all.

(4) Magic portals are ... magic. They don't have to always lead to the same place. In the realm of the Finn things shift and change. The same portal could lead to different places depending on what rules are established.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:00 PM, Scarloc99 said:

Next season Rand takes tear and fights the dark one potentially, 

 

Or if we are lucky next season Rand takes tear and then we get a season building to the last battle. 
 

I really don’t see how we have time to do the Rand live stories with all 3 women and save moraine and cleanse the source and everything else that needs to happen, including Egwenes story which is clearly now going to be her teaching herself how to politic to the Amyrilian Seat with no help. 
 

 

 

 

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I think it's impossible to finish in 4. The lowest number Rafe has given is 6. I think you could do it in 5. Something like this:

 

Season 4:

• Rand takes the Stone -- Rand is Caged -- Dumai's Wells.
• Salidar -- Egwene Captured -- Seanchan Attack.
• Andor Succession -- Mo to the Finn -- Faile rescues Perrin

Season 5:

• Cleansing -- Veins of Gold -- Last Battle
• Egwene Heals the Tower -- Last Battle 
• Matt Rescues Mo -- Last Battle

But even that is going to skip a ton and probably have to be written in a pretty herky/jerky, last 2 seasons of GoT jumble.

[Yamezt]

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:06 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Hell, she may straight up resurrect Siuan, since they really focused in on how you can't bring back the dead this season

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Oh dear, if they are going down this path, then it would probably be Moiraine that gets resurrected since she has to die for Rand to win (though they could have her die very much closer to the last battle)

[DreadLord31]

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:42 PM, Yamezt said:

Oh dear, if they are going down this path, then it would probably be Moiraine that gets resurrected since she has to die for Rand to win (though they could have her die very much closer to the last battle)

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Let me add this to the list of plot holes they better clean up if they get another season! lol

 

They massively telegraphed and established this season that Mo has to die fighting Lanfear or Rand loses the Last Battle only to NOT kill Mo or Lanfear in the season finale. Sigh. 
 

[Sabio]

As we have seen with Mats dagger from season 1 to the second season, the show easily could have made a mistake with the name.  Or they could easily just dump the snakes all together and anyone who hadn't read the books would be none the wiser, I mean with Mat and his questions, there is already going to be big changes that will need to occur.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:53 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Let me add this to the list of plot holes they better clean up if they get another season! lol

 

They massively telegraphed and established this season that Mo has to die fighting Lanfear or Rand loses the Last Battle only to NOT kill Mo or Lanfear in the season finale. Sigh. 
 

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Wheel of Time: Chekhov’s Armory

 

Remember the Azor Ahai prophecy in Game of Thrones?  If you do, well goo on you, because the showrunners certainly didn’t.

 

If this show continues, and if it does so under a time crunch, I expect many things to go unresolved or changed to fit the narrative.

Edited April 18 by Mirefox

[DreadLord31]

So characters they (we think) killed this season are: 

1) Loial

2) Siuan [this Rafe specially said, “shows the stakes”. Really? Just wait till I get to the fake-out death tally to show how it doesn’t!] 

3) Melindra

4) Almost all the BA sisters who left the tower (except Liandrin & Chesmal?) 

5) Ihvon 

6) Valda

7) Sammael 

 

Am I forgetting someone?

 

Fake-Out Deaths this season:

1) Alanna x3

2) Egwene x2 

3) Nynaeve x2 

4) Moiraine 

5) Elaida 

6) Perrin 

7) Dain 

8.) Bain & Chiad 

9) Liandrin 

10) Sammael 

11) Maksim 

12) Lanfear

13) Thom? 

 

*Im counting it as a “fake-out” death if someone is impaled, stabbed, hung, crushed, or drown in a way that would have killed them in the books or real life but in the show is somehow insta-healed! 😉 

Edited April 18 by DreadLord31

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 8:08 PM, DreadLord31 said:

So characters they (we think) killed this season are: 

1) Loial

2) Siuan [this Rafe specially said, “shows the stakes”. Really? Just wait till I get to the fake-out death tally to show how it doesn’t!] 

3) Melindra

4) Almost all the BA sisters who left the tower (except Liandrin & Chesmal?) 

5) Ihvon 

6) Valda

7) Sammael 

 

Am I forgetting someone?

 

Fake-Out Deaths this season:

1) Alanna x3

2) Egwene x2 

3) Nynaeve x2 

4) Moiraine 

5) Elaida 

6) Perrin 

7) Dain 

8.) Bain & Chiad 

9) Liandrin 

10) Sammael 

11) Maksim 

12) Matt 

13) Thom 

 

*Im counting it as a “fake-out” death if someone is impaled, stabbed, hung, crushed, or drown in a way that would have killed them in the books or real life but in the show is somehow insta-healed! 😉 

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Lanfear was gushing from the jugular, so

I’d add that to the list of fake outs, even though it it obvious she didn’t die.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/18/2025 at 6:48 PM, Scarloc99 said:

This may also be the case, end of the day it doesn’t really matter because he dies mins later. Wondering if there is a scene somewhere on a cutting room floor, 

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um. based on what Moggy did to Sammael, in this case the cutting room floor was in the episode.

[DreadLord31]

  On 4/18/2025 at 8:13 PM, Mirefox said:

Lanfear was gushing from the jugular, so

I’d add that to the list of fake outs, even though it it obvious she didn’t die.

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Yes, I just added that and took off Matt since the hanging was just how it happened in the books with Min as Rands stand-in rescuer; and I remembered that in Ep1 the Grayman and cards didn’t do anything to him for some reason. 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 8:15 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Yes, I just added that and took off Matt since the hanging was just how it happened in the books with Min as Rands stand-in rescuer; and I remembered that in Ep1 the Grayman and cards didn’t do anything to him for some reason. 

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They distracted him…for some reason?  Especially odd considering the cards were from Lanfear and the gray man from Moggy but they played as linked in the episode and the spell over Mat seemed to disparate when the gray man was killed.  But anything for a few style points, huh?

[Mirefox]

I’m sorry, but I still can’t get over Thom yelling “Hey!” before throwing his dagger at the black sister.  /facepalm

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:14 PM, Elder_Haman said:

(1) There's no reason to think Elaida met the Aelfinn at all. She came back with gifts - one of those may be that she become the Amyrlin Seat. The Eelfinn give gifts.

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They gave her knowledge, that she'd be Amyrlin. That's not a gift they can give.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 8:54 PM, SinisterDeath said:

They gave her knowledge, that she'd be Amyrlin. That's not a gift they can give.

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They could have given her the Amyrlin seat, no?

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/18/2025 at 9:07 PM, Elder_Haman said:

They could have given her the Amyrlin seat, no?

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They gave her knowledge. 

You'll be Amyrlin.

They didn't give her the seat, that's not within their power, that's pulling on way too many strings of fate.

 

She assumed in the hall that she would be Amyrlin when Siuan was voted in. It was not her time yet. 

Fast forward 10 years later...

 

Now, whether they've just gone and merged giving gifts, and giving the gift of knowledge...

 

But then, Mat asks the fox a question, and that one explicitly did not do the "done" when it answered his question. It could have given him that knowledge as part of the gift he asked.

[VooDooNut]

I'll try my best to phrase these few questions/comments with the knowledge the books provide as well as the changes the show introduces, but everything is so mixed up now it's hard to know:

- Is it possible Elaida's headaches and foresight talent were provided by her trip through the red doorway? Is it related to the bracelet she wears?
- When Matt mentions the screams while inside the doorway, it made me think the voices in his head are actually caused by his interactions with the dagger. Which would align with the memory loss he experiences in the books when he is fully healed from the effects of the dagger.
- Was Lanfear not able to heal the cut Lan gives her? It kind of looked like that but I could have just blinked and missed it.

Edit:
- Oh and I was wondering about why Nynaeve was just waiting outside with the collar. That must have been her compulsion at work. A fly caught in a web. 

Edited April 18 by VooDooNut

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 9:24 PM, SinisterDeath said:

They didn't give her the seat, that's not within their power

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I see your point. 

But then again, they give Mat intangible things that assist him (i.e. memories) in obtaining his goal. So the gift could be something less tangible that nonetheless allowed her to obtain the Amyrlin Seat?

[Mirefox]

  On 4/18/2025 at 9:34 PM, VooDooNut said:

I'll try my best to phrase these few questions/comments with the knowledge the books provide as well as the changes the show introduces, but everything is so mixed up now it's hard to know:

- Is it possible Elaida's headaches and foresight talent were provided by her trip through the red doorway? Is it related to the bracelet she wears?
- When Matt mentions the screams while inside the doorway, it made me think the voices in his head are actually caused by his interactions with the dagger. Which would align with the memory loss he experiences in the books when he is fully healed from the effects of the dagger.
- Was Lanfear not able to heal the cut Lan gives her? It kind of looked like that but I could have just blinked and missed it.

Edit:
- Oh and I was wondering about why Nynaeve was just waiting outside with the collar. That must have been her compulsion at work. A fly caught in a web. 

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I never considered compulsion, which would be plausible except didn’t Moggy kind of wipe that at the end of their talk?

 

But otherwise, her just standing there was monumentally stupid.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/18/2025 at 7:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think it's impossible to finish in 4. The lowest number Rafe has given is 6. I think you could do it in 5. Something like this:

 

Season 4:

• Rand takes the Stone -- Rand is Caged -- Dumai's Wells.
• Salidar -- Egwene Captured -- Seanchan Attack.
• Andor Succession -- Mo to the Finn -- Faile rescues Perrin

Season 5:

• Cleansing -- Veins of Gold -- Last Battle
• Egwene Heals the Tower -- Last Battle 
• Matt Rescues Mo -- Last Battle

But even that is going to skip a ton and probably have to be written in a pretty herky/jerky, last 2 seasons of GoT jumble.

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What about Taim/Black Tower/Asha man. Need that before Dumai’s wells

[Mailman]

  On 4/18/2025 at 1:37 PM, SinisterDeath said:

It's connected in the sense that the DO can manipulate the world as the seals weaken, but after Rand is Wounded, manipulating the land becomes a whole lot easier, and we start to see a lot more bubbles of evil start popping up now that the DO's power is both growing from more seals getting broken, and it's ability to directly affect the land is easier since it's got that direct conduit.

 

Let me put it this way.

Rand's wound was described as "hot to the touch", and the lands sweltered.

 

What happened to the weather, after Rand became Zen?

 

 

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I'm sorry that is extremely circumstantial at the best.

 

The DO power increased across the entire series because the seals weakened. The wound was hot to the touch because that is what happens with an infection that is not under control linking it to the weather conditions without proof is drawing an extremely long bow.

 

The weather conditions do not change after Fain alters the nature of the wound or after Damer locks the wounds inside with each other and away from Rand.

 

Rand becoming zen does not change the wound it does not heal it the wound remains. The weather overall to the best of my knowledge does not change after Rand becomes Zen he affects a small area around himself (which contains the wound) which pushes back the decaying power of the DO.

 

Unless you can provide some direct proof this feels very much like an unproven theory with very little support.

[VooDooNut]

  On 4/18/2025 at 9:58 PM, Mirefox said:

I never considered compulsion, which would be plausible except didn’t Moggy kind of wipe that at the end of their talk?

 

But otherwise, her just standing there was monumentally stupid.

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I'd have to go back and watch the compulsion scene again, but I thought Moggy implied something like "Serve me in perpetuity." and then undid the hypnosis part of the compulsion, leaving the deeper need to obey.

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

What was the deal with the voting scene?  Why did so many of the sitters stand for Suian only after they asked who stood for Elaidia? 

Edited April 18 by The_Watcher_And_Wanderer