S3E6 - The Shadow in the Night

[DigificWriter]

@Mailman is actually right here. Renna was still Egwene's Sul'Dahm after Egwene collared her, but she also simultaneously became Egwene's Damane.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:30 PM, Mailman said:

So once Egwene realised that Renna is simply uncollared Damane then that belief makes her no longer Sul'Damane by your own argument.

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Did Renna continually lecture Egwene about “uncollared damane”? Does Egwene even know what that is?

 

Or did Renna continually tell Egwene that she was subhuman because she wore the collar?

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:20 PM, Mirefox said:

if he just wants it bad enough, he can get right on out of it…

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Except that isn’t what happened. 

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:09 PM, fearbrog said:

Literally uses weapon against her master

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It’s not a weapon.

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:36 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Did Renna continually lecture Egwene about “uncollared damane”? Does Egwene even know what that is?

 

Or did Renna continually tell Egwene that she was subhuman because she wore the collar?

Except that isn’t what happened. 

 

It’s not a weapon.

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You said it was Egwene's belief that Renna was no longer Sul'Damane that allowed her to attack and not the bzzt of the collar. If that is true then the moment Egwene believes that, collar or not, she is not subject to the prohibition about attack.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:46 PM, Mailman said:

it was Egwene's belief that Renna was no longer Sul'Dam

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Sigh. No. It is Egwene’s belief that the collar is not a weapon that allowed her to collar Renna. 
 

Egwene’s belief that once made a damane, Renna is no longer a Sul’Dam that allows her to attack through the collar. 
 

2 steps: (1) collar not a weapon; (2) collared woman not human, therefore not Sul’Dam.  

[Skipp]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:54 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Sigh. No. It is Egwene’s belief that the collar is not a weapon that allowed her to collar Renna. 
 

Egwene’s belief that once made a damane, Renna is no longer a Sul’Dam that allows her to attack through the collar. 
 

2 steps: (1) collar not a weapon; (2) collared woman not human, therefore not Sul’Dam.  

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Not even certain she attacked her.  She lifted her up. lol

[fearbrog]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:36 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It’s not a weapon

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It's a thing that renders victims free will almost obsolete AND can hurt said victim. It's absolutely a weapon

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:54 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Sigh. No. It is Egwene’s belief that the collar is not a weapon that allowed her to collar Renna. 
 

Egwene’s belief that once made a damane, Renna is no longer a Sul’Dam that allows her to attack through the collar. 
 

2 steps: (1) collar not a weapon; (2) collared woman not human, therefore not Sul’Dam.  

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So the collar is not a weapon but then she can attack through the collar after it is on?

 

Are you reading what you are writing.

 

And this despite her clear intention to use it to kill Renna after it is on.

Edited April 12 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/12/2025 at 12:00 AM, Mailman said:

So the collar is not a weapon but then she can attack through the collar after it is on?

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Correct. The collar is not a weapon. Renna does not view it as such. It is only when Renna is collared that it becomes capable of being used as a weapon. And then only if the person collared can channel. 
 

It’s really not all that complicated. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/12/2025 at 12:31 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Correct. The collar is not a weapon. Renna does not view it as such. It is only when Renna is collared that it becomes capable of being used as a weapon. And then only if the person collared can channel. 
 

It’s really not all that complicated. 

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Those mental gymnastics are incredible.

Egwene does not consider the collar a weapon except when she uses it as a weapon.

 

You can choose to believe that if you want but that's batshit crazy talk IMO.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/12/2025 at 12:35 AM, Mailman said:

Egwene does not consider the collar a weapon except when she uses it as a weapon.

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The instant Renna is collared, the fact that it’s a weapon no longer matters. Renna is collared. She is not the Sul’Dam. She is damane.

 

Also, if you want to be technical, it’s the bracelet that’s the weapon - not the collar. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/12/2025 at 12:59 AM, Elder_Haman said:

The instant Renna is collared, the fact that it’s a weapon no longer matters. Renna is collared. She is not the Sul’Dam. She is damane.

 

Also, if you want to be technical, it’s the bracelet that’s the weapon - not the collar. 

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The pitcher is not an actual weapon as soon as Egwene intends to use it as one against her Sul'Damane/Renna she is no longer able to do so.

 

As soon as Egwene intends to use the collar as a weapon against her Sul'Damane/Renna she should not be able to do so.

 

Look as I said if you are determined to apply the mental gymnastics you have somewhat described in the above posts we are never going to agree but I am pretty sure very few people will agree with the mechanics you have described being legitimate.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/12/2025 at 1:23 AM, Mailman said:

but I am pretty sure very few people will agree with the mechanics you have described being legitimate.

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Don’t really care what you or anyone else thinks. 

[Sabio]

  On 4/12/2025 at 1:23 AM, Mailman said:

The pitcher is not an actual weapon as soon as Egwene intends to use it as one against her Sul'Damane/Renna she is no longer able to do so.

 

As soon as Egwene intends to use the collar as a weapon against her Sul'Damane/Renna she should not be able to do so.

 

Look as I said if you are determined to apply the mental gymnastics you have somewhat described in the above posts we are never going to agree but I am pretty sure very few people will agree with the mechanics you have described being legitimate.

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I just chalk it up to a really bad scene in a really bad episode where few things made sense.

[Figs and Mice]

Each to his own but you fellows do seem to be going round in circles on this. In the books , it was very clear the scene from S2E8 simply could not happen : in the show it was seemingly rather made clear (with a good deal of emphasis) that such action was likewise impossible :  until it wasn't...

 

No reason why the book resolution could not have been followed. Except that Show Egwene apparently has to have virtual super powers and get out of any predicament unaided. 

 

We can like this or hate it but that is the way the show is going so I see no point in trying to argue whether the events are technically possible or not . The rules are whatever the writers decide to make them and I don't think they expect their viewers to analyse every detail anyway so we might as well just accept it and move on , no  ?

[Turin Turambar]

I think it is pretty clear in the books that there are many aspects of magic in general that are based upon the beliefs of the wielders. Pretty much ALL OF T'AR IS WILL as evidenced by Perrin being able to nullify Egwene. All of the self restrictions created by channelers we see from needing hand gestures, or only being able to affect what they can see, or any other block created by wilders. To me it is entirely conceivable that Egwene could believe that putting the collar on Renna wasn't an act of violence, but only what was proper. I would have to watch it again,  but.im not sure Egwene actually actively used the collar against Renna. I thought that Renna tried to hit Egwens and she felt the response but that would be a passive effect. Then Egwene doesn't use the collar to choke Renna, she lifts her onto the thing and let's it go. Her own weight is doing the damage. This is all layering the issue,  but again it's all based upon belief and I think the books show how much the magic of this world relies on belief.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Like, how did Rand light the pipe? My take was he believed he could, so he could. Life is just a dream.

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think it is a shame that they did not keep more explicitly to the "spirit" of what an a'dam is. The point is that the a'dam knows your intention - you cannot pick up the water pitcher and then just straighten out your arm and oops! you hit your sul'dam. What a shame! It knows that you are thinking of using the water pitcher as a weapon so you cannot touch it for any reason until you have convinced yourself that you would never use it as a weapon. You cannot wriggle out of it with lawyer like legalese. 

 

For example, if Egwene was only hanging the a'dam up (being tidy), she would have to be completely convinced that she was not harming Renna. She cannot just ignore that aspect. Plausible deniability is not enough. You cannot just re-frame actions as not harmful in your mind, you have to really believe. And if she really believed she wasn't harming Renna, why would she do it? To be able to collar Renna as marathe'damane she would have to completely believe with her entire being it was the right thing to do. Not just pretend that she was not trying to escape and would kill Renna in the process.

 

I cannot really blame the show - the forums are full of people that think they know how to trick the a'dam, that they could lull it into a sense of false security and then kill/escape/commit suicide. They completely ignore that the a'dam is inside your head and your intentions, the dehumanization, the conditioning, the psychological damage of essentially unlimited torture by someone that has access to your deepest fears and phobias - to just say, oh, I'd get out of that easy.

 

The saving grace for the show is twofold, I would say. One, it was absolutely freaky to watch and was a fitting climax to the "Egwene is a beast" arc (which we have sadly seen very little of this season so far). Two, it appears to play on the Seanchan presumption that sul'dams cannot channel. I don't really think this is enough - the a'dam is not that specific - it is not programmed with set parameters and exceptions - resistance, rebellion, and disobedience would still be crushed whether the sul'dam could channel or not. The a'dam have no sense of marathe'damane. But given how common the idea is that the a'dams have a loophole in the fanbase it is difficult to hold the show too accountable for having the same feeling, even though I am totally against it.

[DigificWriter]

I can't go back and check for 100% confirmation right now, but my remembrance of the scene where Egwene collars Renna is that Madeline Madden's movements and facial expressions were meant to be an indicator that the act of picking up the collar, sticking it on Renna, and then hanging her up by the collar was causing Egwene pain but that her anger was driving her forward anyway.

Edited April 12 by DigificWriter

[Sabio]

They were trying to out pain one another until the other gave in.  Which should've been impossible, but this was thought up by the same people who invented lightsaber dagger,

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/12/2025 at 3:51 PM, Sabio said:

Which should've been impossible

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Why should it have been impossible?

 

And from whose perspective are you making that judgment?

[Sabio]

The book

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/12/2025 at 3:56 PM, Sabio said:

The book

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The books are not the show.

 

What, in the show, makes Egwene fighting through excrutiating pain to collar and torture Renna impossible?

[SinisterDeath]

Remind me, why exactly are ya'll derailing this topic, which is explicitly about the events of S3E6, to debate once again... how a'dam may or may not work in the show?

  On 4/3/2025 at 4:37 AM, SinisterDeath said:

Let's keep DM Tidy, and try to keep all discussions pertaining to S3E6: The Shadow in the Night to this topic for the next few weeks.

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[SinisterDeath]

Since it wasn't obvious enough, and y'all keep going on about it. 

 

Anymore posts about the a'dam bull crap will henceforth be removed from this topic.

[Mailman]

@SinisterDeath

I apologize for my post I quoted an earlier post and did not see you post at the end of the topic.

Edited April 13 by Mailman