S3E5 - Tel’aran’rhiod

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 12:19 PM, Irvyne said:

Can you imagine the absolute outrage that would have reverberated across the planet if Peter Jackson had made the same level of changes in his adaptation of Lord of the Rings?

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Yes. There was a significant amount of outrage. No Tom Bombadil. Faramir was a completely different character. No scouring of the Shire. Saruman’s death at Orthanc. 
 

The Peter Jackson trilogy is substantially different from the books. 

[SinisterDeath]

Can we try to keep the absolutist, divisive rhetoric, words, and language like "Only my viewpoint is the correct one", and "this viewpoint is ignorant", or "The show apologists..." to a minimum please? 

 

Here's a few tips:

Take a breath, go watch/read/do something else before your fingers start furiously typing away on the keyboard.

 

If you can't say/type anything nice, don't type it at all.

 

And I know it's hard, but you don't actually have to respond to everyone post you see. It is actually possible to just... move along and let people vent their frustrations or adoration for the show without riling each other up in the process.

[Mailman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:49 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Because they come across that way to others.

 

 

This viewpoint comes across as very ignorant because it is absolutely and inherently impossible for an adaptor to not infuse the thing they are adapting with their own personal interests, beliefs, interpretation of social Mores, and the constraints and mechanics of the medium they are working with.

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Again excusing them as nitpicks (which a lot of them are more severe than IMO) does not make them not true. The better the writing the fewer the nitpicks.

 

You really almost have that paragraph on auto fill.

 

It is of course not possible to for an adapter to not change some things as then it is not an adaption but a copy. And of course the life experiences of the writer is going to play a role on the material they produce.

 

However claiming that they have the same freedoms as the original author is simply not true. If they are adapting a work they must work within the world the original author has created or it is no longer an adaption but a new world.

 

My analysis is based on how effective they are in this endeavour.

 

The quality of the world building, keeping the characters true to their counterparts in the books, how the magical system is used and its rules in comparison to the books, characters competence being tied to the character and not the story requirements. I base my analysis on all these things and others, I provide clear examples for them.

 

This is not ignorance.

[Elder_Haman]

I’m close to locking this thread down. Enough with the personal attacks. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 3:49 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Storytelling is not objectively good or bad in and of itself because those terms are not in and of themselves objective.

 

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Storytelling has accepted metrics that can be judged and they can be good or bad.

[Skipp]

  On 3/28/2025 at 4:03 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. There was a significant amount of outrage. No Tom Bombadil. Faramir was a completely different character. No scouring of the Shire. Saruman’s death at Orthanc. 
 

The Peter Jackson trilogy is substantially different from the books. 

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Aragorn is very different from the books.  The Aragorn-Arwen romance is brought to the forfront.  It trashes the lore because it wasn't a barrow-wight dagger that hurt the Witch King etc...I saw so so so many of the same complaints WoT is receiving now back in 2000.  It just wasn't nearly as wide spread because the internet was young.  Had "Woke" been a word then Peter Jackson would have had that thrown in his face for increasing Arwen's plot relevance and cutting Glorfindel.

[DigificWriter]

I'll unequivocally apologize for characterizing some posters' tone and tenor as ignorant. I am sorry for that word choice.

Edited Friday at 04:17 PM by DigificWriter

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 6:59 AM, Mailman said:

play with a kid which when viewed through the lens of the fact he is going to destroy most of the entire Aiel nation is tonally deaf.

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I think you are underestimating what is being set up by that scene. You're overlooking one of the most impactful story beats of the entire series.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 5:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

I think you are underestimating what is being set up by that scene. You're overlooking one of the most impactful story beats of the entire series.

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It’s good set up.  That said, when he growls at her and chases her I’m surprised she took is as playing.  It was a sweet moment, but when you think about it, he’s a stranger, admits to fulfilling a prophecy, then goes “grrrrrr.”  Part of me thought the kid was going to freak out, lol.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/28/2025 at 5:41 PM, Mirefox said:

but when you think about it, he’s a stranger, admits to fulfilling a prophecy, then goes “grrrrrr.”  Part of me thought the kid was going to freak out, lol.

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Sure, but he was also introduced by her Grand Daddy Rhuarc. 

His facial expressions were clearly playful, not frightening. 

And, let's not forget, that if that wasn't a playful growl, Grand Daddy Rhuarc was literally 10 steps away and he's a certifiable bad ass and why would she fear that wet lander, when she knows her Grand Daddy Rhuarc could wipe the floor with him?

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 5:46 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Sure, but he was also introduced by her Grand Daddy Rhuarc. 

His facial expressions were clearly playful, not frightening. 

And, let's not forget, that if that wasn't a playful growl, Grand Daddy Rhuarc was literally 10 steps away and he's a certifiable bad ass and why would she fear that wet lander, when she knows her Grand Daddy Rhuarc could wipe the floor with him?

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And he is unveiled. 

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 5:48 PM, Elder_Haman said:

And he is unveiled. 

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True to both of those.  Maybe I’m just having some memories of messing with a tiny nephew who wasn’t so sure about me 🤪

[SinisterDeath]

Now here's a question for ya'll.

 

Book Rand, is he Left or Right handed?

 

Prior episodes, we see him using his Right hand to Drink Ale with. He's using it to hold his sword with.

This episode he's using his left hand to eat with. Aviendha "instructs" him to eat with his right hand. (IYKYK)

 

Wonder how many people caught that possible foreshadowing?

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 5:58 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Now here's a question for ya'll.

 

Book Rand, is he Left or Right handed?

 

Prior episodes, we see him using his Right hand to Drink Ale with. He's using it to hold his sword with.

This episode he's using his left hand to eat with. Aviendha "instructs" him to eat with his right hand. (IYKYK)

 

Wonder how many people caught that possible foreshadowing?

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In S1-2 he carried Tam’s sword over his right shoulder and I remember noting that he shot his bow right-handed.  I honestly didn’t pay attention to his hands when he was training with Lan this season.

 

I did note Avi’s comment but more as an Easter egg than the continuation of 2.5 seasons of them paying attention to what hands he’s using.

Edited Friday at 06:12 PM by Mirefox

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/28/2025 at 6:11 PM, Mirefox said:

In S1-2 he carried Tam’s sword over his right shoulder and I remember noting that he shot his bow right-handed.  I honestly didn’t pay attention to his hands when he was training with Lan this season.

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I know Book Rand lost his Left Hand, but I don't recall if he was a South Paw, or if he was Ambidextrous. 

Him eating with his left hand in that episode, could just be him using that hand, not because it was his primary hand, but because it was just a good "snack eating" hand at the time. (And it lets him keep his right hand free to fend off Aviendha... lol)

 

Culturally, the nod to Rand's ignorance of eating with his Left Hand, and getting chastised for it is like... Well, it's pretty much a Bollywood Trope when it comes to "Westerners visit the East".

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 6:17 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I know Book Rand lost his Left Hand, but I don't recall if he was a South Paw, or if he was Ambidextrous. 

Him eating with his left hand in that episode, could just be him using that hand, not because it was his primary hand, but because it was just a good "snack eating" hand at the time. (And it lets him keep his right hand free to fend off Aviendha... lol)

 

Culturally, the nod to Rand's ignorance of eating with his Left Hand, and getting chastised for it is, is like.. Well, it's pretty much a Bollywood Trope when it comes to "Westerners go to the East".

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I don’t remember if he was ambidextrous in the books, but I do know that after 

  Reveal hidden contents

he loses his hand, he continually struggles to do the things he had previously done.  That at least heavily implies he was a lefty.

 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/28/2025 at 6:19 PM, Mirefox said:

  Reveal hidden contents

he loses his hand, he continually struggles to do the things he had previously done.  That at least heavily implies he was a lefty.

 

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It's worth remembering that RJ was a Vietnam Vet, so he undoubtedly knew Vets who have lost hands/arms. So it's likely that he would have had close 2nd hand knowledge from these people he served with, just how much losing a non-dominant (or dominant) hand/arm would impact their life, in ways you wouldn't expect.

 

In Rand's case... His sword was meant to be wielded with Two Hands. So he was definitely always going to have a harder time with that.

 

The aforementioned Thing about always eating your Food with one Hand, is generally tied with cleaning yourself with the opposite hand. So having to do everything with the same hand, is going to require relearning.

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/28/2025 at 1:27 PM, DigificWriter said:

Which shows your ignorance (IMO) and also demonstrates an unwillingness to accept that the decisions that have been made were made in good faith.

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Honestly, I'm liking the show (for the most part) in this season. But @DigificWriter haven't you said that you haven't read the books? You're a show-only person? Maybe I'm remembering wrong ... but I don't see how your opinions are even remotely valid when it comes to all these people who LOVE the books feeling that the show is complete garbage due to it's unfaithfulness to the books (when you have no idea how good the books are or just how much the show has diverged from them). Seems like a fish yelling at a bird that it's flying wrong. But I apologize immediately if I've miss-remembered and you ARE actually a book-lover/expert. 

 

Personally, I've read the whole series twice (the first time being almost 20 years ago now) and I'm about 1/3 way through a third time. AND also - I just love fantasy TV (and there's very little good fantasy tv out there at all anymore)! 

 

So I end up - much like how Lauren at "Unraveling the Pattern" describes his Tv show watching experience - being super hyped for the show, seeing it and being a little disappointed (because of things I had hoped to see but didn't) - but then rewatching and giving grace - and also, for the most part liking it and seeing that they made changes that they have made are for a purpose. 

 

If you watch Rafe's most recent interview on the Dusty Wheel with Matt Hatch - you see that he IS actually very thoughtful about how to Adapt the Whole Story in the time restraints given. So I do believe over against say @Mailman or @Sabio that they are making changes with the intention of trying to be faithful to the overall story - and telling it for TV when you have very limited time. 

 

That being said ... here are a number of complaints (that IMO are legit) that are just bad writing/bad Tv/and also VERY unfaithful to the books (source material):

#1) Fake-out deaths. Lowers the stakes for when a character is attacked. Makes me not believe you/trust you. And in 3 seasons, every-single-main character has died (by my count, 2 or more times, by book standards). Now ... to be fair ... there were a couple "fake-outs" in the books (but not many!)

#2) Inconsistent metaphysics. Does anybody have any idea in the show what the Shadar Logoth dagger can do or where it is? The Horn? One Power levels with vs. without a Sa'Angreal? Power levels between different Aes Sedai? Dreamers strengths/weaknesses? Jordan was a master of metaphysics. 

#3) Cultural depth. Jordan was a master of creating entire cultures with different customs, ways of seeing the world, values, ect... and he was meticulous in depicting them and being consistent with them. In the show, every culture is apparently a mix of all the other cultures. Why say, "Rand stands out as an Aielman" because he has red hair...if the Aiel are all mixed and every other culture is all mixed too? At this point, half-way through Season 3, do you as a Tv viewer feel that you really know what makes Aiel an Aiel (I mean they don't even consistently veil to kill even when it has an immediate payoff within an episode!)? Do you know how the different cultures feel about nudity/sexuality and why (or is polyamory ok everywhere in TvRandLand?) Can you see, understand, or even agree with the Seanchan's worldview on woman who can channel (or are they just those awful bad guys?)? What do you know about the Sea-Folk? The Andorans? The Game of Houses? The Tua'athan? Ect...  Now to be fair to the show, they don't have much time, and they have tried - in certain clever ways - to lean into this. I would give them - like a 5/10  on attempting to depict different cultural values. Because of time constraints maybe would up it to 6/10.

 

But to @DigificWriter's credit ... over against the hard-core book fans... we book readers should easily be able to admit that there are aspects of Jordan's writing that were NOT that good, that the Tv writers can improve and in some cases have improved! 

For example:

1) The Forsaken were 2D, unbelievably incompetent, and not relatable or fleshed-out hardly at all in the books. This is the shows strongest change/improvement (and I haven't seen people complain about that!). The shows Forsaken scenes are GOLD. And making Lanfear a main character is an amazing change. Ishy was more believable. Moggy is scarier. And in just a few scenes with Rahvin, you know he's gonna reak havoc. 

2) Jordan really sucked at writing romance. The relationships in the books were kiddish/not exciting/not something you wanted to be part of yourself or admired. And actually, at points, really kind-of gross (read Matt/Tylin or Elayne/Thom or Faile/Perrin). The show has tried to make the relational drama more relatable and real. To me it comes across as a bit CW'ish, but it's still probably better than the books romances. 

3) In the books there were massive sections that were boring as hell and didn't seem to have pay-off or a major point. Come on book readers, be honest ... we all had to endure the slog ... we all had multiple parts where we thought, "how long is this White Tower plot or Shaido/Faile plot or the whole CoT book ... going to go on"??? The show can't have that. You can't have an entire episode even where nothing happens and there wasn't an arc of an inciting event, tension, struggle, and resolution. Each episode has to be a story that is interesting in it's own right. And, for the most part, they are doing this. 

 

So. I give this episode. A 6 out of 10. I'd bump it up to at 8 out of 10 if it wasn't so dark and I could actually see what happened though! 

 

Edited Friday at 07:51 PM by DreadLord31

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:41 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Honestly, I'm liking the show (for the most part) in this season. But @DigificWriter haven't you said that you haven't read the books? You're a show-only person? Maybe I'm remembering wrong ... but I don't see how your opinions are even remotely valid when it comes to all these people who LOVE the books feeling that the show is complete garbage due to it's unfaithfulness to the books (when you have no idea how good the books are or just how much the show has diverged from them). Seems like a fish yelling at a bird that it's flying wrong. But I apologize immediately if I've miss-remembered and you ARE actually a book-lover/expert. 

 

Personally, I've read the whole series twice (the first time being almost 20 years ago now) and I'm about 1/3 way through a third time. AND also - I just love fantasy TV (and there's very little good fantasy tv out there at all anymore)! 

 

So I end up - much like how Lauren at "Unraveling the Pattern" describes his Tv show watching experience - being super hyped for the show, seeing it and being a little disappointed (because of things I had hoped to see but didn't) - but then rewatching and giving grace - and also, for the most part liking it and seeing that they made changes that they have made are for a purpose. 

 

If you watch Rafe's most recent interview on the Dusty Wheel with Matt Hatch - you see that he IS actually very thoughtful about how to Adapt the Whole Story in the time restraints given. So I do believe over against say @Mailman or @Sabio that they are making changes with the intention of trying to be faithful to the overall story - and telling it for TV when you have very limited time. 

 

That being said ... here are a number of complaints (that IMO are legit) that are just bad writing/bad Tv/and also VERY unfaithful to the books (source material):

#1) Fake-out deaths. Lowers the stakes for when a character is attacked. Makes me not believe you/trust you. And in 3 seasons, every-single-main character has died (by my count, 2 or more times, by book standards). Now ... to be fair ... there were a couple "fake-outs" in the books (but not many!)

#2) Inconsistent metaphysics. Does anybody have any idea in the show what the Shadar Logoth dagger can do or where it is? The Horn? One Power levels with vs. without a Sa'Angreal? Power levels between different Aes Sedai? Dreamers strengths/weaknesses? Jordan was a master of metaphysics. 

#3) Cultural depth. Jordan was a master of creating entire cultures with different customs, ways of seeing the world, values, ect... and he was meticulous in depicting them and being consistent with them. In the show, every culture is apparently a mix of all the other cultures. Why say, "Rand stands out as an Aielman" because he has red hair...if the Aiel are all mixed and every other culture is all mixed too? At this point, half-way through Season 3, do you as a Tv viewer feel that you really know what makes Aiel an Aiel? Do you know how the different cultures feel about nudity/sexuality and why (or is polyamory ok everywhere in TvRandLand?) Can you see, understand, or even agree with the Seanchan's worldview on woman who can channel (or are they just those awful bad guys?)? What do you know about the Sea-Folk? The Andorans? The Game of Houses? The Tua'athan? Ect...  Now to be fair to the show, they don't have much time, and they have tried - in certain clever ways - to lean into this. I would give them - like a 5/10  on attempting to depict different cultural values. Because of time constraints maybe would up it to 6/10.

 

But to @DigificWriter's credit ... over against the hard-core book fans... we book readers should easily be able to admit that there are aspects of Jordan's writing that were NOT that good, that the Tv writers can improve and in some cases have improved! 

For example:

1) The Forsaken were 2D, unbelievably incompetent, and not relatable or fleshed-out hardly at all in the books. This is the shows strongest change/improvement (and I haven't seen people complain about that!). The shows Forsaken scenes are GOLD. And making Lanfear a main character is an amazing change. Ishy was more believable. Moggy is scarier. And in just a few scenes with Rahvin, you know he's gonna reak havoc. 

2) Jordan really sucked at writing romance. The relationships in the books were kiddish/not exciting/not something you wanted to be part of yourself or admired. And actually, at points, really kind-of gross (read Matt/Tylin or Elayne/Thom or Faile/Perrin). The show has tried to make the relational drama more relatable and real. To me it comes across as a bit CW'ish, but it's still probably better than the books romances. 

3) In the books there were massive sections that were boring as hell and didn't seem to have pay-off or a major point. Come on book readers, be honest ... we all had to endure the slog ... we all had multiple parts where we thought, "how long is this White Tower plot or Shaido/Faile plot or the whole CoT book ... going to go on"??? The show can't have that. You can't have an entire episode even where nothing happens and there wasn't an arc of an inciting event, tension, struggle, and resolution. Each episode has to be a story that is interesting in it's own right. And, for the most part, they are doing this. 

 

So. I give this episode. A 6 out of 10. I'd bump it up to at 8 out of 10 if it wasn't so dark and I could actually see what happened though! 

 

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I agree with your points about Jordan‘s shortcomings.  I think the forsaken are more interesting in the show so far but I also think they did Ishy dirty because that was an incredibly weak death.

 

As for the romance, I love how Jordan covered for it, especially with the boys,  by running joke that each thought the other two were better with the ladies than himself.  I think part of the issue I and others had by starting the series off with Rand sleeping with eggy, Perrin, Perrin being married, and Mat seemingly having relationships with the ladies is that we miss out on that charm and awkwardness of the boys growing up, learning about the world, but also assuming they’re not doing it as well as the others.  

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:50 PM, Mirefox said:

As for the romance, I love how Jordan covered for it, especially with the boys,  by running joke that each thought the other two were better with the ladies than himself.  I think part of the issue I and others had by starting the series off with Rand sleeping with eggy, Perrin, Perrin being married, and Mat seemingly having relationships with the ladies is that we miss out on that charm and awkwardness of the boys growing up, learning about the world, but also assuming they’re not doing it as well as the others.

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Yes - I think most of us didn't like those relational choices in the show (especially fridging Layla right away) - but if you have really limited time and want to tell the Faile/Perrin arc and really dig into Perrin's struggle with violence and peace - one can understand the change, right? I did like the running joke between the boys and they were younger in the books. But still - you wouldn't agree that romance wasn't Jordan's strong suit?

 

Rand's relationships - I mean - if you are trying to being an apologist that a polygamous relationship could be alright - I can see that. But from everything I've ever heard and read about actual polygamous marriages in history and our world -- they're not as "nice" as Jordan wrote them (For example I've been to Kenya multiple times and seen what happens to widows who were the second wife! I have Mormon friends - and it's all horror stories). Or if you read the Bible, there are lots of examples of polygamous marriages - that are all disasters. But anyways ... 

[Mirefox]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:57 PM, DreadLord31 said:

 

Yes - I think most of us didn't like those relational choices in the show (especially fridging Layla right away) - but if you have really limited time and want to tell the Faile/Perrin arc and really dig into Perrin's struggle with violence and peace - one can understand the change, right? I did like the running joke between the boys and they were younger in the books. But still - you wouldn't agree that romance wasn't Jordan's strong suit?

 

Rand's relationships - I mean - if you are trying to being an apologist that a polygamous relationship could be alright - I can see that. But from everything I've ever heard and read about actual polygamous marriages in history and our world -- they're not as "nice" as Jordan wrote them (For example I've been to Kenya multiple times and seen what happens to widows who were the second wife! I have Mormon friends - and it's all horror stories). Or if you read the Bible, there are lots of examples of polygamous marriages - that are all disasters. But anyways ... 

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I agree with all that except for Perrin.  I think they could have easily shown his struggles with violence by killing a Whitecloak.  No need for the fridging (or wife).

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/28/2025 at 7:41 PM, DreadLord31 said:

#3) Cultural depth. Jordan was a master of creating entire cultures with different customs, ways of seeing the world, values, ect... and he was meticulous in depicting them and being consistent with them. In the show, every culture is apparently a mix of all the other cultures. Why say, "Rand stands out as an Aielman" because he has red hair...if the Aiel are all mixed and every other culture is all mixed too? At this point, half-way through Season 3, do you as a Tv viewer feel that you really know what makes Aiel an Aiel (I mean they don't even consistently veil to kill even when it has an immediate payoff within an episode!)? Do you know how the different cultures feel about nudity/sexuality and why (or is polyamory ok everywhere in TvRandLand?) Can you see, understand, or even agree with the Seanchan's worldview on woman who can channel (or are they just those awful bad guys?)? What do you know about the Sea-Folk? The Andorans? The Game of Houses? The Tua'athan? Ect...  Now to be fair to the show, they don't have much time, and they have tried - in certain clever ways - to lean into this. I would give them - like a 5/10  on attempting to depict different cultural values. Because of time constraints maybe would up it to 6/10.

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I can speak on this. Book to Show, this it's actually simple.

Look at their Clothes, and Hairstyle. You can show culture through clothing and hair style rather than race and ethnicity.
 

How does an Aiel dress compared to someone from Malkier (Lan), or someone from Andor (Elayne), or someone from the Two Rivers (Nynaeve). Then you have the absolute fashion show going on in the hall of the sitters in the White Tower, where everyone is wearing something completely different?

 

Trying to cast only red headed gingers, that average 6.5 feet tall to play Aiel, was going to be about as easy as trying to cast 2-2.5 Meter Tall, extremely skinny (Anorexic skinny) to play Belters in the Expanse.

 

At the end of the day, from a casting perspective, there's some avenues that it's just easier to pick your battles. The Wheel of Time TV Show has an excellent Wardrobe and Hairstyle department. The Casting department is great when it comes to picking talented actors, but maybe not so much when it comes to picking people who look the part of the cultures in the books.

 

As for the Seafolk? At least the Primary Seafolk on that ship matched my expectations. The random deckhands? Not so much.

 

One criticism the Fanbase of the Show has long ignored is the Colorism bias.

E.g. Casting wise, they chose to cast Ishy (Fares Fares), who is a Lebanese/Syrian actor as the Bad Guy. They chose to Cast black actors to play Padan Fain and Valda.

In season 3, they didn't have to have Leane (Asian Woman), brutally beat a Black Woman to death with her Staff in the Hall of the sitters...

 

Hell they even decided to keep the "Bald = Evil" trope alive and well in the Black Ajah. 

Even though the show is "inclusive" and is "progressive" by actually having actors and characters from all across the world, of various ethnicities and sexual identities and preferences, it still fails in other areas that various people from other communities pointed out all the way back in Season 1 as issues they hoped would be addressed in future seasons.... and may not have actually been addressed... and it's definitely a hard thing to address.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:02 PM, Mirefox said:

 

I agree with all that except for Perrin.  I think they could have easily shown his struggles with violence by killing a Whitecloak.  No need for the fridging (or wife).

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I liked Sanderson's idea of having him kill Master Luhan.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:21 PM, SinisterDeath said:

As for the Seafolk? At least the Primary Seafolk on that ship matched my expectations.

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Negative. They were not topless. That's a deal breaker.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/28/2025 at 8:23 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Negative. They were not topless. That's a deal breaker.

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