Wheel of Time Season 3 - Full Season Discussion

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:27 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Why would I need a source? It's a logical conclusion based on the fact that the only time we see her use it, she is in her room in the Tower, and she left it where it was - on the wall - whilst she used it.

 

 

That is actually not an issue for anyone other than you.

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So it's just you making a total guess and nothing more. Fair enough you might be right who knows.

 

If you are right the item on the wall never left TV and there must be a device in the FFH that allows her to return to TV. If the item actually transports with her it becomes even more valuable as it allows travel to anywhere and back. I am assuming they did not actually find a Ter'angreal that was specifically attuned to Siuan's childhood home so they must have targeted it.

 

These are all legitimate questions.

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:36 PM by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:34 PM, Mailman said:

I am assuming they did not actually find a Ter'angreal that was specifically attuned to Siuan's childhood home.

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The "FFH" is not Siuan's childhood hut. It's a new structure that was constructed at some point in the 20 years that followed Gitara's vision of the Dragon Reborn's rebirth.

 

I won't dispute that the questions that can be asked about the "Love Shack" Ter'angreal have legitimacy, but my contention is that said questions are extraneous to the story itself.

 

Also, my point wasn't even about the Ter'angreal themselves; it was about my annoyance at the refusal by some people to accept settled questions about Siuan and Moiraine's clandestine Nocturnal meeting and the location thereof as actually being settled.

 

[Mailman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 1:46 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

The "FFH" is not Siuan's childhood hut. It's a new structure that was constructed at some point in the 20 years that followed Gitara's vision of the Dragon Reborn's rebirth.

 

I won't dispute that the questions that can be asked about the "Love Shack" Ter'angreal have legitimacy, but my contention is that said questions are extraneous to the story itself.

 

Also, my point wasn't even about the Ter'angreal themselves; it was about my annoyance at the refusal by some people to accept settled questions about Siuan and Moiraine's clandestine Nocturnal meeting and the location thereof as actually being settled.

 

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Only extraneous if you choose to forget the show deliberately put it in, and you brought it up so you have clearly thought about it. I am simply questioning why it does not have a better use for such an amazing device.

 

And I'm sorry but as for your vent the knowledge seems to have never been confirmed in show but in an outside interview. Being irritated that people are unaware of an interview outside the show is not fair.

Edited Tuesday at 01:53 PM by Mailman

[DreadLord31]

  On 3/17/2025 at 8:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Moggy disclosed that the consequence of breaking your Oaths to the Dark is a 'true death', which I take to mean being eradicated from the pattern as opposed to being Reborn during another Turning. 

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She did? Can you find/quote that cause I completely missed it. And if she really did say that, that's another - pretty egregiously bad case of writing. Because then Ishy's entire motivation has been erased and makes no sense. He would have wanted a "true death" and then should have just broken his oath. But in Ishy's dialogue he says that he is the only Chosen who "really believes in the Dark" and implies that what the Dark One wants is for everyone to have a "true death". Right? Or am I missing something/misunderstanding something? 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/18/2025 at 8:35 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Can you find/quote that cause I completely missed it.

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It's in the last scene of E1. 

 

  On 3/18/2025 at 8:35 PM, DreadLord31 said:

Ishy's entire motivation has been erased and makes no sense. He would have wanted a "true death" and then should have just broken his oath.

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Maybe. Of course, that's assuming (a) that Moggy is correct and (b) that Ishy's oaths are easily broken. After all, the Forsaken are likely tied by far more binding oaths than your average Darkfriend. And -- as the scene also illustrates -- your average Darkfriend doesn't realize this is a loophole that can be exploited.

 

  On 3/18/2025 at 8:35 PM, DreadLord31 said:

But in Ishy's dialogue he says that he is the only Chosen who "really believes in the Dark" and implies that what the Dark One wants is for everyone to have a "true death".

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He did say that he is the only Chosen who truly believes in the Dark. But I think he said the Dark One's motivation is to break the Wheel. IIRC, it was Ishy's own interpretation (or motivation) to 'end suffering'. The DO doesn't care about suffering.

 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/18/2025 at 8:56 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Maybe. Of course, that's assuming (a) that Moggy is correct and (b) that Ishy's oaths are easily broken. After all, the Forsaken are likely tied by far more binding oaths than your average Darkfriend. And -- as the scene also illustrates -- your average Darkfriend doesn't realize this is a loophole that can be exploited.

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Or... Everyone's taking what she says about "True Death" far too literally. 😉 

Oh my gosh... a Dark Friend... lies?

[Agitel]

I think we're reading too much metaphysics into what the show means by "true death". I don't think it need be any different than the books (at this point).

[Mailman]

@DigificWriter

I am fairly sure this is going to make you mad.

 

The FFH is a clear and unambiguous example of bad writing. It is classic style over substance.

 

The showrunners wanted so badly for the lovers to have a sex scene in a fishing hut that they decided they were going to invent an item to physically transport them to it no matter the consequence of said item to the world they were building. They introduced an item that allows targeted travel across the world simply to facilitate that scene.

 

Since part of the item is located in the tower there is not even any need for them to leave the tower to have a secret hookup as shown by Verins ability to make holes in the wall, with this ability the lovers could secretly meet up in the tower almost at will.

Edited Wednesday at 04:31 AM by Mailman

[Mailman]

The weave that Siuan channeled into the Box in her study to protect it would that not have to be a tied off weave which I thought was not possible for show Aes Sedai.

[LTL]

  On 3/19/2025 at 5:23 AM, Mailman said:

The weave that Siuan channeled into the Box in her study to protect it would that not have to be a tied off weave which I thought was not possible for show Aes Sedai.

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No, it wouldn't have to be. For example, it may just be a complex locking mechanism. She channels to lock it, no physical key could open it and it could be very difficult for another channeller to unlock without knowing the mechanism. I salute your dedication to finding flaws with every scene in the show though.

[Mailman]

  On 3/19/2025 at 8:47 AM, LTL said:

No, it wouldn't have to be. For example, it may just be a complex locking mechanism. She channels to lock it, no physical key could open it and it could be very difficult for another channeller to unlock without knowing the mechanism. I salute your dedication to finding flaws with every scene in the show though.

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That could be right, the only thing I would add is that the flows looked to be fire not the best thing for manipulating a locking mechanism. I am assuming we will find out later this season or early next. If I was guessing though I think we will see the contents get turned to ash.

 

If you had to guess do you think we will get a complicated lock and the contents exposed or a flash of fire?

 

The other option would be that the chest is a Ter'angreal and the weaves lock it and when not correctly opened the contents are destroyed. See i do try and come up with things that support show desicions.

Edited Wednesday at 09:14 AM by Mailman

[LTL]

  On 3/19/2025 at 9:09 AM, Mailman said:

That could be right, the only thing I would add is that the flows looked to be fire not the best thing for manipulating a locking mechanism. I am assuming we will find out later this season or early next. If I was guessing though I think we will see the contents get turned to ash.

 

If you had to guess do you think we will get a complicated lock and the contents exposed or a flash of fire?

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I'm not sure, I haven't given that scene much thought. I could be wrong but doesn't someone, maybe even Siuan, have a box like this in the books that she does something to with the power to keep it safe before tying off weaves is a thing?

[Mailman]

  On 3/19/2025 at 9:14 AM, LTL said:

I'm not sure, I haven't given that scene much thought. I could be wrong but doesn't someone, maybe even Siuan, have a box like this in the books that she does something to with the power to keep it safe before tying off weaves is a thing?

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Yes but in the books they could always tie off weaves in the show only the forsaken have that ability at the moment.

 

Eladia or Alviarin attempt to open Siuan box in the books and the contents are destroyed.

Edited Wednesday at 09:18 AM by Mailman

[LTL]

  On 3/19/2025 at 9:15 AM, Mailman said:

Yes but in the books they could always tie off weaves in the show only the forsaken have that ability at the moment.

 

Eladia or Alviarin attempt to open Siuan box in the books and the contents are destroyed.

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I see. I don't know what will happen in the show with the box but I don't think it's worth worrying over the possibility that they "might" do something that doesn't make sense, so far the box is fine. Even if the contents do go up in flames, it feels easy enough to create an explanation for it that it should be a non-issue too.

 

One example would be Siuan being able to tie off some very basic weaves as a secret ability. Many Aes Sedai have something they worked out and haven't shared in the books and Siuan is one of the most powerful Aes Sedai of her time. Another possibility would be that the locking mechanism is such that forcing it open will create a spark, and there could be something in the box that will shoot up in flames if there is a spark. I'm sure you could creatively come up with some other options. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/19/2025 at 9:39 AM, LTL said:

I see. I don't know what will happen in the show with the box but I don't think it's worth worrying over the possibility that they "might" do something that doesn't make sense, so far the box is fine. Even if the contents do go up in flames, it feels easy enough to create an explanation for it that it should be a non-issue too.

 

One example would be Siuan being able to tie off some very basic weaves as a secret ability. Many Aes Sedai have something they worked out and haven't shared in the books and Siuan is one of the most powerful Aes Sedai of her time. Another possibility would be that the locking mechanism is such that forcing it open will create a spark, and there could be something in the box that will shoot up in flames if there is a spark. I'm sure you could creatively come up with some other options. 

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I did suggest it could be a ter'angreal in an edit to one of my earlier posts. 

[Pandemonium]

this show has the spirit of matt cauthon correct, but i think they need to do a better job at some of the things they are saying.  matt would never boast about having other man's memories.  Matt was an inherently untrusting person, even more so after he touched the dagger.  Matt wouldn't boast of being the horn-blower, having special abilities, or even tell Aes Sedai to help heal him.  He wouldn't even let Moiraine try to help him with this 'headaches' at Rhuidean.  What they are doing is funny, but it also comes at the cost of a few of Matt's key personality traits.  there are other ways to show that he is a rogue and a gambler.

 

Matt didn't need to brag to girls about being the horn blower because he already had dozens of lifetimes encoded in his head. He could already woo women with his charm and all his dances. 

 

Plus, I'm sure they are holding off on his lucky, but they haven't really delved into his special gambling abilities yet.  

[Samt]

  On 3/19/2025 at 4:17 AM, Mailman said:

@DigificWriter

I am fairly sure this is going to make you mad.

 

The FFH is a clear and unambiguous example of bad writing. It is classic style over substance.

 

The showrunners wanted so badly for the lovers to have a sex scene in a fishing hut that they decided they were going to invent an item to physically transport them to it no matter the consequence of said item to the world they were building. They introduced an item that allows targeted travel across the world simply to facilitate that scene.

 

Since part of the item is located in the tower there is not even any need for them to leave the tower to have a secret hookup as shown by Verins ability to make holes in the wall, with this ability the lovers could secretly meet up in the tower almost at will.

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I had assumed that the meetup was in the tower and that the item used was simply a connection between two rooms. In that case, it can easily be a terangreal that only works for those rooms and only the Amyrlin knows about it and she shared it with Moiraine.  Mostly, I assumed that because, as you point out, the implications of the meetup being in a random hut in Tear are actually rather significant.  Not only does it raise questions of why they are using this technology for sexual liaisons rather than finding the dragon, it also raises the question of what this hut in Tear actually is.  Who maintains it?  Why does no one explore it from the Outside?  Siuan wouldn’t be wandering around Tear alone for reasons of her station and the relationship between the white tower and Tear.
 

Worldbuilding is a foundational part of the WoT story telling.  The writers don’t get to declare by fiat that something doesn’t matter to the story and thus won’t be explained when it breaks the worldbuilding.

[DigificWriter]

A compulsive need to pick apart any one element of a story is, to me, an indicator that some distance needs to be put between the person who is feeling said need and the story itself, as exemplified by a response that Robert Jordan gave to Dragonmount's current CEO years ago at a book signing and that I've loosely paraphrased or otherwise referred to previously, 

 

One could very easily go down a rabbit hole picking apart the FFH and the Ter'angreal that are used to travel to/access it, but such obsessive analysis is, IMO, both extraneous to the actual story of the Wheel of Time TV adaptation and not conducive to responding to and interacting with it as a piece of media.

 

Arguing against or refusing to accept the established nature of the FFH itself - which is what prompted me to go off on this tangent in the first place - is also not conducive, IMO, to responding to and interacting with the WoT TV adaptation as a piece of media.

 

Moving on to other things that are both related and unrelated to the point I just made, I just  learned within the past day that one of my own personal fan theories about the TV adaptation - Liandrin Guirale being the Aes Sedai to whom Moiraine refers when she's in the Blight with Rand in The Eye of the World - was debunked by Rafe himself, and it's forcing me to completely reorient my thinking about the show and the storylines that it is currently exploring in Season 3 and is,something that I have to struggle to not obsess over lest it completely derail my ability to enjoy the season and the story it is telling.

[Mailman]

  On 3/19/2025 at 5:31 PM, DigificWriter said:

A compulsive need to pick apart any one element of a story is, to me, an indicator that some distance needs to be put between the person who is feeling said need and the story itself, as exemplified by a response that Robert Jordan gave to Dragonmount's current CEO years ago at a book signing and that I've loosely paraphrased or otherwise referred to previously, 

 

One could very easily go down a rabbit hole picking apart the FFH and the Ter'angreal that are used to travel to/access it, but such obsessive analysis is, IMO, both extraneous to the actual story of the Wheel of Time TV adaptation and not conducive to responding to and interacting with it as a piece of media.

 

Arguing against or refusing to accept the established nature of the FFH itself - which is what prompted me to go off on this tangent in the first place - is also not conducive, IMO, to responding to and interacting with the WoT TV adaptation as a piece of media.

 

Moving on to other things that are both related and unrelated to the point I just made, I just  learned within the past day that one of my own personal fan theories about the TV adaptation - Liandrin Guirale being the Aes Sedai to whom Moiraine refers when she's in the Blight with Rand in The Eye of the World - was debunked by Rafe himself, and it's forcing me to completely reorient my thinking about the show and the storylines that it is currently exploring in Season 3 and is,something that I have to struggle to not obsess over lest it completely derail my ability to enjoy the season and the story it is telling.

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And again you resort to attacking me. People pick apart the show and the books constantly I have seen people claiming that the choice of Liandrin to wear a red dress with black streaks was her proudly declaring her allegiance to the black ajah in the Hall. There was a multiple page conversation on the 3 oaths after the end of season 2. Fantasy and sci fi and renowned for exactly these types of discussion.

 

It is not a very deep rabbit hole when you are using a Ter'angreal to travel across the entire world instantly in a world where travel is limited to horseback or ships at it's fastest. It damages the characters who have devoted their entire lives to finding the Dragon Reborn to use such an amazing device solely for their own gratification.

 

And again as to your rant at people not accepting the established nature of the FFH the show has never actually confirmed the knowledge in the show it is entirely unfair to blame people for not having seen the showrunner in an external interview give that knowledge. How is it not conductive it is part of the show.

 

I agreed with your guess that the Aes Sedai was Liandrin but in no way at the moment does that theory damage the story as much as the FFH manages to do for such a poor reason as to allow a sex scene to take place. Assuming that it was not just a throwaway line from Moiraine then my next guesses in order would have to be Elaidia or Cadsuane.

Edited Wednesday at 11:24 PM by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/19/2025 at 10:42 PM, Mailman said:

And again you resort to attacking me

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Nothing about what I said was an attack on you.

 

  On 3/19/2025 at 10:42 PM, Mailman said:

as to your rant at people not accepting the established nature of the FFH the show has never actually confirmed the knowledge in the show it is entirely unfair to blame people for not having seen the showrunner in an external interview give that knowledge

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In narrative fiction, there exists the concept of "Word of God, which carries as much weight as - or sometimes more weight than - what is conveyed on either the page or the screen.

 

A good example of " Word of God" story detail from another IP is the last name of the Slayer Faith (Eliza Dushku) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and ANGEL. She was never referred to by anything other than her first name onscreen, and yet if you check any official or unofficial information sources about those shows and their interrelated media, you will see her last name listed as Lehane because that is the name that Joss Whedon provided when asked to contribute information for an RPG reference book.

 

Examples of "Word of God" information for the Wheel of Time TV series include the already-repeatedly-mentioned status of the FFH as an actual physical location, the degendered nature of Reincarnation as it pertains to the TV adaptation, the clarification that Moiraine did in fact sleep with a dog named Jenny - an Irish Wolfhound - during her Novice years (there had been speculation that Alanna was speaking metaphorically or 'in code' about Moiraine's relationship with Siuan), and the specific identification - via Instagram - of Elaida as the Aes Sedai who beat Moiraine with the One Power (which, as I noted, has debunked my personal headcanon and thusly completely upended the way that I have viewed both Liandrin and Moiraine's characterizations through the first two seasons).

[Mailman]

  On 3/19/2025 at 11:51 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Nothing about what I said was an attack on you.

 

 

In narrative fiction, there exists the concept of "Word of God, which carries as much weight as - or sometimes more weight than - what is conveyed on either the page or the screen.

 

A good example of " Word of God" story detail from another IP is the last name of the Slayer Faith (Eliza Dushku) from Buffy the Vampire Slayer and ANGEL. She was never referred to by anything other than her first name onscreen, and yet if you check any official or unofficial information sources about those shows and their interrelated media, you will see her last name listed as Lehane because that is the name that Joss Whedon provided when asked to contribute information for an RPG reference book.

 

Examples of "Word of God" information for the Wheel of Time TV series include the already-repeatedly-mentioned status of the FFH as an actual physical location, the degendered nature of Reincarnation as it pertains to the TV adaptation, the clarification that Moiraine did in fact sleep with a dog named Jenny - an Irish Wolfhound - during her Novice years (there had been speculation that Alanna was speaking metaphorically or 'in code' about Moiraine's relationship with Siuan), and the specific identification - via Instagram - of Elaida as the Aes Sedai who beat Moiraine with the One Power (which, as I noted, has debunked my personal headcanon and thusly completely upended the way that I have viewed both Liandrin and Moiraine's characterizations through the first two seasons).

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A compulsive need to pick apart any one element of a story is, to me, an indicator that some distance needs to be put between the person who is feeling said need and the story itself

 

Hardly complementary and about me and not the content.

 

Word of God is still not content based information. Expecting people to have such information from an external source is not fair.

 

As for your example I watched the entire Buffy and Angel runs and had no idea till you just mentioned it that Faith had a second name. It is also a poor comparison as Faith's second name has no world altering effects on the actual content.

 

Using external sources to fill in story holes is terrible writing and TV practice.

[expat]

  On 3/19/2025 at 10:42 PM, Mailman said:

It is not a very deep rabbit hole when you are using a Ter'angreal to travel across the entire world instantly in a world where travel is limited to horseback or ships at it's fastest. It damages the characters who have devoted their entire lives to finding the Dragon Reborn to use such an amazing device solely for their own gratification.

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Why is the idea of traveling through a Ter"angreal so surprising?  Such book Ter'angreals exist because the twisted redstone doorframes allow "travel" between Randland and the Eelfinn and Aelfinn worlds.  If the idea of using existing book concepts in the show bothers you so much, others can justify the scene by reference to the redstone doorways and imagining constraints on the show Ter'angreals that prevent them from being used for general purpose travel*.  I know that you disagree with this approach, but if I can come up with a (barely) plausible explanation for something the series does, I accept it and move on without overthinking it.

 

*One possible set of constraints:

1. Someone must make a weave at both TV Ter'angreal

2. That person must go to the location they want to "travel' to and make another weave

3. Traveling must be initiated by using both the TV Ter'angreals within a short period of time

4. Traveling back to TV Ter'angreals is limited to a few hours (the return weave disappears within 8 hours)

5. The TV Ter'angreals can only be linked to one location, to go to another location, then the process must begin again with step 1.

 

With these constraints, most of your problems go away since you must still physically go to the location at least once and return to TV and even then it only allows you to travel to the linked location for a few hours which isn't likely to be enough time to do anything except a specific task such as a FFH. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/20/2025 at 1:14 AM, expat said:

Why is the idea of traveling through a Ter"angreal so surprising?  Such book Ter'angreals exist because the twisted redstone doorframes allow "travel" between Randland and the Eelfinn and Aelfinn worlds.  If the idea of using existing book concepts in the show bothers you so much, others can justify the scene by reference to the redstone doorways and imagining constraints on the show Ter'angreals that prevent them from being used for general purpose travel*.  I know that you disagree with this approach, but if I can come up with a (barely) plausible explanation for something the series does, I accept it and move on without overthinking it.

 

*One possible set of constraints:

1. Someone must make a weave at both TV Ter'angreal

2. That person must go to the location they want to "travel' to and make another weave

3. Traveling must be initiated by using both the TV Ter'angreals within a short period of time

4. Traveling back to TV Ter'angreals is limited to a few hours (the return weave disappears within 8 hours)

5. The TV Ter'angreals can only be linked to one location, to go to another location, then the process must begin again with step 1.

 

With these constraints, most of your problems go away since you must still physically go to the location at least once and return to TV and even then it only allows you to travel to the linked location for a few hours which isn't likely to be enough time to do anything except a specific task such as a FFH. 

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Some of those limiters maybe valid. At the moment however the only information we have is that they can physically transport to the FFH and it must have been targeted to that location.

 

1 Seems unlikely having 2 separate entry portals and they require channeling at both at the same time seems very niche. If you had the ability to make a ter'angreal that functions as this one does why would you limit it in this manner?

2 Having an anchor point for the destination is entirely possible even likely I think. This however does not address the problem that they are using it for a selfish reason rather than to further their goals of saving the world.

3 See 1

4 If the gateway as such works without time limitations from TV it feels a strange rule that the other end functions differently.

5 See 2.

 

This did not have to be an issue if the meeting was in the dream world it would have solved so many of the problems, but I believe the showrunners wanted so desperately to be able to say the sex actually occurred in the flesh they compromised the worldbuilding to achieve it.

 

I genuinely enjoy having discussions like these examining the inner workings of a world I care deeply for is interesting and fun. No one wishes more than me that I was finding enjoyment from this show rather than fault.  The level of excitement when I found out my favourite books where going to be on the screen was off the charts.

Edited Thursday at 01:44 AM by Mailman

[Mailman]

  On 3/20/2025 at 1:14 AM, expat said:

Why is the idea of traveling through a Ter"angreal so surprising?  Such book Ter'angreals exist because the twisted redstone doorframes allow "travel" between Randland and the Eelfinn and Aelfinn worlds. 

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I don't find the idea of a ter'angreal that could facilitate travel incredibly surprising. It's the consequences of said item that are the issue. If you have access to such an item it alters the world as it's value is immense.

[expat]

  On 3/20/2025 at 1:42 AM, Mailman said:

Some of those limiters maybe valid. At the moment however the only information we have is that they can physically transport to the FFH and it must have been targeted to that location.

 

1 Seems unlikely having 2 separate entry portals and they require channeling at both at the same time seems very niche. If you had the ability to make a ter'angreal that functions as this one does why would you limit it in this manner?

2 Having an anchor point for the destination is entirely possible even likely I think. This however does not address the problem that they are using it for a selfish reason rather than to further their goals of saving the world.

3 See 1

4 If the gateway as such works without time limitations from TV it feels a strange rule that the other end functions differently.

5 See 2.

 

This did not have to be an issue if the meeting was in the dream world it would have solved so many of the problems, but I believe the showrunners wanted so desperately to be able to say the sex actually occurred in the flesh they compromised the worldbuilding to achieve it.

 

I genuinely enjoy having discussions like these examining the inner workings of a world I care deeply for is interesting and fun. No one wishes more than me that I was finding enjoyment from this show rather than fault.  The level of excitement when I found out my favourite books where going to be on the screen was off the charts.

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You have to demonstrate that they compromised the worldbuilding with this scene.  The books had Ter'angreals which had similar physical effects, so that part was in line with the established book worldbuilding.  You then introduced a slippery slope argument that this Ter'angreal could lead to unrestricted traveling.  I pulled some limitations out of my ass to show that there could be a somewhat plausible explanation that the slippery slope argument doesn't hold water which is enough for me not to get too worked up about the logic of the concept. 

 

I agree with you that the showrunners didn't give the mechanics of the scene deep thought.  They wanted something cool and theatrical.  However, that doesn't mean that the scene is inherently wrong or worldview breaking.

 

When I watch a TV series, it's because I want to like it.  To achieve this, I'm usually willing to give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt and take the most generous plausible interpretation of their logic. Under these circumstances, I don't think this scene compromises the book's worldbuilding.