Your opinions.

[DragonSpawn]

    In my opinion I have found Ishamael, alias Elan Morin Tedronai, to be the most interesting of the characters in the WoT series, even though we rarely see anything of him. However he interests me deeply. Since apparently it is him that will lead the forces of the Dark One. Elan Morin Tedronai was originally a philosopher and theologian during the Age of Legends. He was in the prime of maturity: good looking with fine cut clothes and dark, penetrating eyes and a commanding presence; his voice had the air of both reason and command. He was often too esoteric for popular appeal. He wrote many books including "Analysis of Perceived Meaning," "Reality and the Absence of Meaning" and "Disassembly of Reason". When the hole was made in the Dark One's prison, he looked at events critically, rather than despairingly. Being a theoretician, he came to believe that the struggle between the Creator and the Dark One was not new to this world; it had, in fact, existed since the dawn of time in a cycle, using human pawns as champions.

    He was one of the most intelligent men of his time. Also as RJ states in the series, he was an unrivaled master at the complex chess-like game of sha'rah, which required one to think many steps ahead. r

    Why would a man like this, probably the philosopher and theologian of his age be the first to swear fealty to the DO and become the leader of the "Chosen?" What did he read in his prophecies, what did his genius mind deduct, what did he find that convinced him that it was best for the world, his world, for the DO to win?

  Also one notices a sheer difference in personality between Elan Morin Tedronai and the other "Chosen." He seems less bent on dominating nations and power, then the others. He seems to actually be following another tact all-together than the other "Chosen (albeit since we are unsure of Demandred this is more of an educated guess)."

 

    Also the name he chose for himself. Ishamael. What is RJ trying to tell us with this name? Ishmael was the first-born son of Abraham and eldest child of Abraham. However Ishmael was an illegitimate son that Abraham had with a handmaid. Judaism has generally viewed Ishmael as wicked though repentant. Judaism maintains that Isaac (the father of the Jewish people) rather than Ishmael was the true heir of Abraham.

 

One day Sarah was angered by seeing Ishmael mocking or playing with Isaac (the Hebrew word is ambiguous), and she asked Abraham to expel him and his mother, saying: "Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac."Ishmael was very dear to Abraham and he initially refused to do as Sarah asked. He finally gave in to his wife's request when God told him that He would take care of Ishmael, since he was a descendant of Abraham. Abraham provided Hagar and her child with bread and a bottle of water and sent her into the desert. Hagar, with her son, wandered in the wilderness and ran out of water. When they were reduced to great distress, an angel appeared and showed Hagar a spring of water saying "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation."

Judaism has generally viewed Ishmael as wicked though repentant. According to the Haggadah Ishmael was as an idolater and a "brother-hater, who becomes ill from Sarah's evil eye." Ishmael later repents and comes to revere his brother Isaac.

 

    So I assume Ishmael is the lost son. The wicked one. However his exile turns him into greatness. Is RJ trying to pull a partial correlation between Ishmael and Ishamael? That both became the lost sons of their generation (albeit under different circumstances)? That both turned to become wicked and perhaps both will repent before the end? If there is a correlation between Ishmael and Ishamael. Would this imply that perhaps Ishamael will repent before TG?

    As Moridin is more and more fusing with Rand or perhaps Lews Therin Telamon. Difficult to say with two men in the same brain to which Moridin is building the stronger connection. Will this in a way trigger him to repent, to realize something in his philosphical mind that he might have been in error? To revere Lews Therin,.....or perhaps even farmboy Rand?

 

 

 

     

 

    Or am I reading too deeply into what is just a very similar name?

     

[Child of Lir]

I agree - Ishamael is one of the most interesting characters. Both he and Lanfear have always been my favourite Forsaken because of their intellect, although of course their abilities and interests are different.

 

He was certainly correct in his deduction about the eternal struggle of the Light and Dark, but correct me if I'm wrong - did not the prophecies only come into existence after the War of Power? In any case, his philosophical understanding lead him to make a choice, and that choice was the Dark. As you say, the interesting question is why? Perhaps he saw that the Dark needed a champion and he took that role upon himself - after all he was, and is, insane to some degree, so we cannot be sure that the choice was made in full sanity.

 

We do know that he is proud, certain of his superiority over the other Chosen, a controller and machinator - possibly even truly a megalomaniac. A person like that would certainly want to be top dog. He also enjoys the Dark acts, evil deeds, terror and domination, so what better role to choose than the DO's champion? It gives him power, and the freedom to indulge his evil whims. So, I don't think he saw anything in the DO's cause that made him think the DO would win; there were two champion jobs on offer, and the Dark one suited him because it allowed him to be as bad a boy as he wanted.

 

He shows psychopathic tendancies - intellectual interests combined with a lack of empathy and a desire to hurt. I don't think someone like that could choose anything but the Dark and be truly happy. Discovering the DO must have been a dream come true for him - his fantasies could become reality. And he could leave home and escape from his dominating mother!  ;)

 

Seriously though, on the link with Ishmael, RJ must have chosen that name for a reason. Therefore, I suspect there must be some connection to the Biblical story, although I find it hard to see Moridin repenting. I think he would only do that if it gave him a chance to win and become even more powerful. If the Light is set to win, he wouldn't want to be on the losing side. Perhaps the link is merely the reference to the two sons - one of Light, one of Dark - who contest against each other? It's very hard to say, but an interesting question indeed.

[Guest Fire Lord]

I like Ishamael as well, he is the most interesting FS in my view. For someone that complex, it's rather hard to know why he joined the Shadow, but I guess it suited his nature.

 

I would agree that he is not exactly your power-hungry FS, I never got the impression that his active efforts to convert Rand were geared to making him Na'eblis. He is the strongest in the Power, and throw in that he is quite insane, the others would understandbly fear him.

I think he truly believes in whatever the Dark One is after, and he has thrown in his lot without any regards to his own plans. He is the only one, so far as I can see, who died for the Dark One, not his personal ambitions.

 

This maybe a tangent, but it is related to him. I'm not sure what the Dark One wants, but if it's to remake the Wheel in his own way, doesn't this mean that human beings will be wiped out of the earth? Somehow I don't think the Forsaken's dreams of ruling the world will come to be, they are just tools. And as intelligent as he is, I think Ishamael has figured this out, yet he continues to champion the Shadow without any [obvious] thoughts to his personal plans.

 

You can't ask for a better champion.

 

As to his name, it sounds suspiciously like that of the biblical character, but I have a hard time seeing Ishamael coming to his senses and joining the Light. He has embraced the Shadow too much for him to completely reverse his thinking.

 

Strangely, I think he is the one Forsaken who is not afraid of his master, as compared to his fellows.

[Mr Ares]

Look at it this way - the war between Light and Shadow is eternal, as the Light cannot permanently destroy Shai'tan. Shai'tan, however, is entirely capable of ending the war - by destroying the Wheel - but he needs to be free in order to do this. That's what Ishy is trying to do. He is trying to decisively end the war. What a nice chap he is, as all the others seek to prolong the war, or make personal gains from it.

[DragonSpawn]

I agree - Ishamael is one of the most interesting characters. Both he and Lanfear have always been my favourite Forsaken because of their intellect, although of course their abilities and interests are different.

 

He was certainly correct in his deduction about the eternal struggle of the Light and Dark, but correct me if I'm wrong - did not the prophecies only come into existence after the War of Power? In any case, his philosophical understanding lead him to make a choice, and that choice was the Dark. As you say, the interesting question is why? Perhaps he saw that the Dark needed a champion and he took that role upon himself - after all he was, and is, insane to some degree, so we cannot be sure that the choice was made in full sanity.

 

We do know that he is proud, certain of his superiority over the other Chosen, a controller and machinator - possibly even truly a megalomaniac. A person like that would certainly want to be top dog. He also enjoys the Dark acts, evil deeds, terror and domination, so what better role to choose than the DO's champion? It gives him power, and the freedom to indulge his evil whims. So, I don't think he saw anything in the DO's cause that made him think the DO would win; there were two champion jobs on offer, and the Dark one suited him because it allowed him to be as bad a boy as he wanted.

 

He shows psychopathic tendancies - intellectual interests combined with a lack of empathy and a desire to hurt. I don't think someone like that could choose anything but the Dark and be truly happy. Discovering the DO must have been a dream come true for him - his fantasies could become reality. And he could leave home and escape from his dominating mother!  ;)

 

Seriously though, on the link with Ishmael, RJ must have chosen that name for a reason. Therefore, I suspect there must be some connection to the Biblical story, although I find it hard to see Moridin repenting. I think he would only do that if it gave him a chance to win and become even more powerful. If the Light is set to win, he wouldn't want to be on the losing side. Perhaps the link is merely the reference to the two sons - one of Light, one of Dark - who contest against each other? It's very hard to say, but an interesting question indeed.

 

    Well I am not sure if he was insane yet when he decided to go to the Dark One. His books were too esoteric and complex for the majority,..not too far distant from reality and written by a madman. He was described as thinking it with all his logic and with every rational discourse when the Bore was found. Then he came to the conclusion that the DO needed to win. Perhaps something in his prophecies he interpreted or found from the past, after all he was a theologian and philosopher.

    He seemed pretty sane in all times except with Rand's duel with him. When he confronted a mad LTT in the prologue he seemed as normal as any. Also when described as the advisor of Artur Hawkwing he was not described as eccentric.

 

    Also one has to wonder is he really insane? The only time we saw him act a bit off his rocker was with his duel with Rand. However even now as Moridin he seems cold and calculating again. So the question is was that one event at Falme an act to try and intimidate or move Rand? Or was that his true face?

 

      Yes I also think he differs a lot from all other Forsaken. That is probably one of the reasons he is treated with a differential respect, they fear him since they cannot understand him. Unlike them, they probably ask themselves why did he swear fealty to the DO? He didn't do it for the power, he didn't do it for the riches, he didn't do it for the respect, he didn't do it so he could live out sadistic tendencies, he didn't do it so he get back at someone in petty revenge. Unlike Graendal, all the others know she joined the DO, so she could spoil herself with riches, power and slaves.

    However all they know is that Ishamael was the first with the DO, following him before they came. But they cannot decipher his reasons. He can't be a pawn. Since he was one of the most respected and most intelligent men of his age, not the profile of a mindless lackey.

    Also it is repeated again and again, especially recently, his proficiency and mastery in the strategic game sha'rah. 

 

  Out of interest where does he show a desire to hurt? He seems to lack empathy as you say, and doesn't mind doing what is necessary to reach what he perceives the end goal. However he doesn't seem to indulge in excess or just for the sake of brutality, which others like Semirhage made their name with.

 

    But yes it would be a bit of a turn to see Moridin repent.

[Cybertrolloc]

Also one has to wonder is he really insane? The only time we saw him act a bit off his rocker was with his duel with Rand. However even now as Moridin he seems cold and calculating again. So the question is was that one event at Falme an act to try and intimidate or move Rand? Or was that his true face?

The PoVs in PoD: the chess scene and him watching the girls leave Ebou Dar--he's pretty far off his rocker in those, but he seemed a lot less bipolar in ACoS (Moggy, watcher at Shaido camp, wanderer at Shadar Logoth). Interactions with other Forsaken: they think that he's still insane, but he handles himself fairly normally...I think grabbing at the Mindtraps in the KoD meeting was the worst we saw in those (and probably will be a big mistake--i.e. if Semi noticed it).

 

I guess Ishy as nihilist bringing about the end of the Pattern is a pretty easy explanation...I think it's more subtle than that though (more so than him being wrong about an ages old saga where he and the Dragon fight that's happened many times before). I definitely don't find him totally sane for sure.

[Cadsuane]

Well, being an intelligent thinker and philosopher, he may simply have come to the conclusion that existence (and therefore resistance ^_^) is futile, which would explain his joining the DO to destroy the pattern. I mean, what is the logical reason for existance? What is the purpose? If he found no purpose to work toward, then it might have felt most reassuring to decide to end everything instead of floating along knowing the futility of life and thinking there is nothing to be done.

 

It might also explain why he went a bit batty as Ba'alzamon (though he seems more on top of his game as Moridin). I imagine that believing such a thing could drive a person insane quite easily.

[Majsju]

A friend borrowed my BWB, so I can't check it, but I'm fairly sure Ishys "discovery" was that it was inevitable that the DO would eventually win, not that the DO Had to win. And thus fighting the good fight would at best postpone the coming downfall. And in his eyes, better evil and alive than good and somewhat less alive.

 

I don't think he was really insane before getting hooked on TP, though the word psychopath does spring to mind.

[Vemynal]

Dragonspawn, another idea is to look at this from a Muslim point of view. I just took a comparative religion's class a year ago and i distinctly remember a discussion about how Christianity, Judism and the Muslim religion are all related.

 

If I remember correctly the Muslim religion claims Ishmael started their religion and reject the idea of him "repenting and revering his brother Issac". I forget exactly what it said but I'm left with the impression that they believe it didn't happen.

 

So could it be seen as both brother's were the champions of their respective religion? Both trying to claim true worship of God? For all we know Ishamael could view the Dark One as the creator who has trapped himself outside of time and reality and wants back in. Ishamael would then see himself as a champion of a good cause, if doing a job that requires whatever necessary means to be used.

 

At least this point of view would clarify the issue of how he likely will never repent. Also, does Judism believe that Allah=God? I think that was the general idea with Muslim religion. But if Judism were to see it as not another name for their own god then they might view it as a evil god. Or even better if I'm wrong and Muslim's view Allah as a separate god then each son could be the patron of their own god.

 

Though i doubt RJ takes such black and white siding to this issue it can be pulled out of context and used for such a manor in an interesting way.

[maayanbar]

Hi, I'm new to these board,. though not to message boards in general :-). I'm also quite a new WOT fan but read all main 11 books.

Vemynal wote:

does Judism believe that Allah=God? I think that was the general idea with Muslim religion. But if Judism were to see it as not another name for their own god then they might view it as a evil god.

Well, being jewish, though agnostic, judism as a monotheistic religion believes there is only one god, be its name whatever it is. Even the satan is only a kind of an angel. I think this hierarchy might apply to WOT world as well concerning the creator and shai'tan, though I'm not as knowledgeable as any of you.

 

[Child of Lir]

Regarding Ishamael's insanity, yes we don't know when that began, but "insanity" is a very loose term that can cover a variety of mental illnesses. I think we are mostly all agreed that he shows psychopathic tendancies, and many would view psychopathy as insanity. Also, just because a person might have a mental illness or disorder, it does not make them incapable of rational, intellectual or philosophical thought. Take the autistic spectrum as an example - this is a mental "disorder", yet autistic people are capable of great intellectual achievements.

 

However, we don't have enough facts about him or his early life to determine when this "insanity" began, or what form(s) it takes, so it's a bit of a moot point really. I was just asking the question could his state of mind / mental processes have contributed towards his decision to join the DO?

 

Responding to DragonSpawn, I think his capacity to hurt is clearly shown by his deeds during the War of Power, his later machinations resulting in the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing's war, his use of mindtraps... Although he doesn't enjoy torture, for example, these things he has had a hand in have all been unpleasant to say the least. He moves in a much wider spectrum than the other Forsaken, concerned with hurting nations, not just individuals. He might not enjoy pulling the legs off spiders, but he does seem to be enjoying his plans to destroy the world.

 

Responding to Vemynal and Ishmael's role in founding Islam - yes, I was thinking of that when I said two sons of the same father.

[cloglord]

I have given this some thought as well, and I think I can see why a philosopher would go over to the DO.

 

I agree that a nhilistic Ishamel is a very good explaination of Ishy's motives, but another thought struck me as well, maybe Ishy is in rebellion against the pre-destined nature of the wheel.  Maybe he resents the restrictions on his free-will, and has come to the conclusion that the only way to break free from the pattern is to assist in its destruction.  I think that an esoteric and fervent philosopher could easily reach either of these conclusions.

 

This would explain why Ishy is the DO's favorite, he is the only one who really realizes that the DO has no intention of re-creating anything, that the DO's triumph will actually mean the destruction of everything, including his followers.  As the only forsaken to truly comprehend his master's plan, he is the ony one fully trusted to help carry it out.

 

just my $.02

[Child of Lir]

Interesting thought cloglord. Although I'm sure Ishamael would be hoping deep down that, if the DO does destroy everything, he'll let him live on as his sidekick! Unless, of course, he is hell bent on his own destruction....

 

A very interesting character indeed. Anyone out there who's a psychologist and can give us some insight into his particular disorder(s)?

[DragonSpawn]

    Out of interest, how do we know that if the Wheel is destroyed all of creation is destroyed? To me it seems comparable to if the bucket is destroyed, the stones in it won't necessarily be destroyed.

 

    Ishamael seems to be a philosopher and theologian. So he must have noticed, especially with the hoards of information available to him, that history keeps repeating itself. The wheel always turns and turns. The same souls continue being reborn. Each age comes to pass, eventually repeating itself.

      Also we know the DO will destroy the Wheel, or has the power to do such. However I do not logically see where it states that wheel = no more, the whole creation = no more.

      Couldn't it be. That with the wheel destroyed, souls are simply no longer recycled? Instead of being recycled these souls then either go to some other place or disappear altogether. But they cannot be rewoven into the pattern. Once gone from the pattern they are forever gone. As esoteric and intelligent as Ishamael is, he surely realized as long as history keeps repeating itself humanity cannot evolve or advance. Since it keeps stumbling across the same blocks. History keeps repeating itself ad infinitum. That the wheel is perhaps more of a curse than a blessing for humanity. So the hopes of advancement and to finally break free of the devil's circle of endless repeats lies in the destruction of the wheel which imprisons them?

      This would explain why someone of Ishamael's standing would support the DO. He sees it as beneficial. Also why he stood before the whole hall, and told everyone of his intentions to free the DO and  called on all to support him in front of an awed/shocked audience.

    Perhaps with the DO freed, the wheel destroyed, history will stop repeating itself ad infinitum. Threads that have long happened will no longer be re-introduced into the pattern. And life will simply evolve instead of living in a constant loop.

[Majsju]

It seems logical that breaking the Wheel would result in linear time, ie a world where change is possible. As long as time is circular, as it currently is, any greater change is not possible, since all major events are bound to be repeated.

 

So if the DO wants to remake the world in his own image, he must start by destroying the Wheel. Of course this might backfire, since if he breaks the Wheel, change can effect him as well, so it is very possible he could be destroyed.

 

As for reincarnation, that is quite possible in a world with linear time as well, it would just work a bit different for those souls with special missions, like the heroes of the horn, the dragon etc.

 

Obviously I do not share the belief that the DOs agenda is to destroy the world. Rather remake it in his own image, a world with constant chaos. Which would mean that Ishy is far from suicidal.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I agree with most of everything that his been said, and I'd like to restate some of that and interject some thoughts of my own as well...

 

1)  The wheel repeats itself. Ishamael resented that. He resented the knowledge lost in the turnings of the wheel, knowledge that he felt was rightfully his (see EotW prologue)

 

2) He believed that as long as the wheel turned, progress would be impossible

 

3) Ishamael realized that the nature of the struggle is this: The light fights to keep the wheel intact, not to destroy the Dark One, but the Dark One fights to destroy the wheel.

 

4) He then realized that as long as the Light fought and won, the wheel would keep turning.

 

5) If the Wheel turned on into forever, the Shadow would have to win eventually, and the Shadow only had to win 1 time.

 

6)Therefore, with the Shadow's victory inevitable, why not hasten the end?

 

Also, I think, even though he was viewed as a nihilist, he probably actually believes that the Dark One wants to break the Wheel to create linear time. I think he has always been the first of the chosen because he has been the only one to know the real goal of Shai'tan (Mother's milk in a cup(!), I felt the DO's gaze fall on me as soon as I said that!). I think the DO actually told Ishamael what he plans to do, and since Ishamael still followed, he made him Nae'blis. As a side note, I believe it was always his plan to make Moridin/Ishy nae'blis, but he dangled the title in front of the others to increase their motivation.

 

I have a theory that the Wheel actually is the Dark One's prison, and that by breaking it, he is set free...

[Mr Ares]

It seems logical that breaking the Wheel would result in linear time, ie a world where change is possible. As long as time is circular, as it currently is, any greater change is not possible, since all major events are bound to be repeated.

 

So if the DO wants to remake the world in his own image, he must start by destroying the Wheel. Of course this might backfire, since if he breaks the Wheel, change can effect him as well, so it is very possible he could be destroyed.

 

As for reincarnation, that is quite possible in a world with linear time as well, it would just work a bit different for those souls with special missions, like the heroes of the horn, the dragon etc.

 

Obviously I do not share the belief that the DOs agenda is to destroy the world. Rather remake it in his own image, a world with constant chaos. Which would mean that Ishy is far from suicidal.

So a being described (by RJ) as the ur-control freak is constant chaos? I tend to see things a bit like this. If the wheel is destroyed, then time stops. It doesn't go linear, because the wheel itself is responsible for driving time. RJ has said that humanity can change and evolve, and Luckers has referred to the concept as a kalpass, an upward trending spiral. If the wheel is broken I see no reason that time should suddenly change and become linear, and I see no reason to subscribe unhinted at benevolence to Ishy's motivation. He wants time to end. And Shai'tan is outside the Pattern, and so would remain unaffected by changes within it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

So a being described (by RJ) as the ur-control freak is constant chaos?

 

Actually, Mr. Ares, thats exactly it.

 

Among the many traits ascribed to the Dark One is an overwhelming tendency toward paradox.  This is cited by Verin most explicitly (and since Verin, of all the Aes Sedai, seems to have the best philosophical grasp of the Wheel, etc, I'll take her word for it).  That is one reason that both extended use of the True Power and exposure to the Taint cause madness, among other symptoms.

 

The Dark One desires complete control, but can only obtain it by turning everything to chaos, since as long as any will exists other than his own, he does not have complete control.

 

Isn't the concept of paradox fun?

[Thorum]

and since Verin, of all the Aes Sedai, seems to have the best philosophical grasp of the Wheel, etc, I'll take her word for it

 

Verin's brown. So she probably gets it all from books, not from philosophy.

 

Though I must admit she seems to know most about the Wheel, the Ages turning, etc.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Verin's brown. So she probably gets it all from books, not from philosophy.

 

I'm sorry ... and please don't be upset, but that made me laugh.

 

Philosophy can be recorded in books, you know ...

[Majsju]

When the DO attempts to break free, both in the AOL and now, stability and order are tossed out the window as chaos spreads through the lands. I am quite convinced that this is not onl something radiating from the DO, but also something he orders his minions to do, go out and spread chaos (Let the Lord of Chaos rule, remember;))

 

Chaos weakens the DOs prisons, and strengthens the DO.

 

In many myths, Creation comes when chaos is turned into order. Creation equals Order, and thus the Creator equals Order, the DO being the Creator antithesis equals Chaos.

 

And with the Wheel broken, time changed into linear, there is no hope of the Whels controlling functions to kick in and attempt to undo the DOs actions, no hope of the good ol' Ages to return.

 

And Ishy probably knows most of this, or at least strongly suspects it. And even though if he originally turned evil because he believed the Light was screwed, now he must be tempted by what linear time means, nothing has to get lost, at least not for someone who has been granted eternal life.

[Thorum]

I'm not upset. It was just a little oddity in your answer.  :D

 

And yes, I know philosophy can be recorded in books, but you always have to think a lot about what it reads, and what your own opinion of it is. You can't get that from books.

 

[Mr Ares]

When the DO attempts to break free, both in the AOL and now, stability and order are tossed out the window as chaos spreads through the lands. I am quite convinced that this is not onl something radiating from the DO, but also something he orders his minions to do, go out and spread chaos (Let the Lord of Chaos rule, remember;))

 

Chaos weakens the DOs prisons, and strengthens the DO.

 

In many myths, Creation comes when chaos is turned into order. Creation equals Order, and thus the Creator equals Order, the DO being the Creator antithesis equals Chaos.

 

And with the Wheel broken, time changed into linear, there is no hope of the Whels controlling functions to kick in and attempt to undo the DOs actions, no hope of the good ol' Ages to return.

 

And Ishy probably knows most of this, or at least strongly suspects it. And even though if he originally turned evil because he believed the Light was screwed, now he must be tempted by what linear time means, nothing has to get lost, at least not for someone who has been granted eternal life.

I would say that things are not as simple as Creator=order, Shai'tan=chaos. The Creator created order, but not absolute order - there remains free will. A balance between order and chaos, and the absoloute victory of either would be bad. Shai'tan wishes to use chaos as a means to an end - he wishes to destroy all order, and reduce the world to chaos in order to reestablish his own (absolute) order, devoid of free will. I see no reason that he would attempt to establish linear time, or any time at all, unless that time was as slaved to his will as everything else. I fIshy does believe that linear time will be established, then is that necessarily a good thing - for example, linear time does not prevent knowledge being lost (a lot of people believe we have linear time in the real world, but knowledge of the past has still been lost), but it does mean that the knowledge will not necessarily be recovered, as it probably would be in a world with cyclical time. Even eternal life wouldn't stop knowledge being lost, unless he has  an everlasting memory, or a very good filing system. And now I need to go and make sure my books are still written by Robert Jordan, and not Michael Moorcock.

 

and since Verin, of all the Aes Sedai, seems to have the best philosophical grasp of the Wheel, etc, I'll take her word for it

 

Verin's brown. So she probably gets it all from books, not from philosophy.

 

Though I must admit she seems to know most about the Wheel, the Ages turning, etc.

Just because a sister is member of one Ajah, it does not mean she is limited exclusively to her Ajah's duties: Cadsuane (a green) has captured more men than any red, and Vandene was a green as well, but spent most of her time in search of knowledge with her brown sister, at least when we first met her. There is no reason why Verin shouldn't engage her mind in philosophical debate even though she is a brown.

 

Isn't the concept of paradox fun?

Absolutely

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I see no reason that he would attempt to establish linear time, or any time at all, unless that time was as slaved to his will as everything else. If Ishy does believe that linear time will be established, then is that necessarily a good thing - for example, linear time does not prevent knowledge being lost (a lot of people believe we have linear time in the real world, but knowledge of the past has still been lost), but it does mean that the knowledge will not necessarily be recovered, as it probably would be in a world with cyclical time. Even eternal life wouldn't stop knowledge being lost, unless he has  an everlasting memory, or a very good filing system. And now I need to go and make sure my books are still written by Robert Jordan, and not Michael Moorcock.

 

Well, we know from the books that Ishy resented the mechanisms of the wheel that kept him from knowing what had happened in past turnings, that kept him from knowledge of his past lives...

 

I don't really see how the Wheel could be viewed as an upward spiral, since if the Wheel turns from here to infinity, the chances that sooner or later it will all come back to the beginning are certain.

 

Well, I guess the question is what the DO's true goals are, and what it means to break the wheel. I would assume that breaking the wheel would mean it would never repeat, but if the Wheel actually is time itself, breaking it would mean stopping time altogether.

 

I think the Wheel is actually the DO's prison, and that is why he wants to break it...

 

True enough, even if we lived forever we would still forget things, but we're not talking about everyday things that are filtered out because they are no longer important, we're talking about being able to truly progress, instead of having to start over with a clean slate after every rebirth.

[Mr Ares]

I see no reason that he would attempt to establish linear time, or any time at all, unless that time was as slaved to his will as everything else. If Ishy does believe that linear time will be established, then is that necessarily a good thing - for example, linear time does not prevent knowledge being lost (a lot of people believe we have linear time in the real world, but knowledge of the past has still been lost), but it does mean that the knowledge will not necessarily be recovered, as it probably would be in a world with cyclical time. Even eternal life wouldn't stop knowledge being lost, unless he has  an everlasting memory, or a very good filing system. And now I need to go and make sure my books are still written by Robert Jordan, and not Michael Moorcock.

 

Well, we know from the books that Ishy resented the mechanisms of the wheel that kept him from knowing what had happened in past turnings, that kept him from knowledge of his past lives...

 

I don't really see how the Wheel could be viewed as an upward spiral, since if the Wheel turns from here to infinity, the chances that sooner or later it will all come back to the beginning are certain.

 

Well, I guess the question is what the DO's true goals are, and what it means to break the wheel. I would assume that breaking the wheel would mean it would never repeat, but if the Wheel actually is time itself, breaking it would mean stopping time altogether.

 

I think the Wheel is actually the DO's prison, and that is why he wants to break it...

 

True enough, even if we lived forever we would still forget things, but we're not talking about everyday things that are filtered out because they are no longer important, we're talking about being able to truly progress, instead of having to start over with a clean slate after every rebirth.

Ishy may have resented the mechanisms of the Wheel that prevented him knowing of his past lives, but that doesn't mean that destroying the Wheel will give him the knowledge he seeks.

 

The Wheel could be viewed as an upward trending spiral because all that repeats are big events and general trends, rather than all the specific details. Therefore, the possibility constantly exists for humanity to better itself for the next turning. Therefore, when the Third Age next comes around, people could be better of by the time of Tarmon Gai'don than they are now, although the possibility exits for them to be worse off. The Wheel provides a framework, and when things drift too far from that the Wheel has correcting mechanisms, but that doesn't mean that there is no possibility for progress, in fact RJ has said quite the reverse. So, to give an example, the next TG would likely be at a time when powers like Min's and Perrin's are returning to the world, but the people with those powers will not be Min and Perrin. At the next turning of the Wheel, the Aes Sedai could be less arrogant than they are in this turning, etc. There is massive scope for improvement in each Age, so as long as it sticks to the same basic framework it can continue to do so unchecked.

 

Shai'tan's goals have already been described in this thread. RJ has described him as the ur-control freak. He wants total control. He will use chaos as a means to an end, to establish that control. Whatever time exists, linear, cyclical, or anything else, then it will exist solely as an extension of His will, and only so long as he desires it. He wants less freedom for humanity, not more. If the Wheel broke time would certainly cease to repeat, but I think everything would cease rather than suddenly everyone has access to linear time (which would make sod all difference to al but a tiny fraction of the population). Remember in the Eye of the World, His plans were described as "blind the Eye of the the World, and slay the Great Serpent, kill time". Even if the Wheel is his prison there is no reason to believe that a jailbreak is good news for anyone.

 

And if we did live forever, we could still forget even the big important things, while the memory is clogged up with trivia. And as Ishy will be one of only a handful with eternal life (provided Shai'tan delivers on his promise of course), then only the Chosen will be able to progress, as the rest of humanity will still have the slate wiped clean. But as I have already stated, any progress made will be the progress Shai'tan desires, at the speed he desires. His release will result in less  freedomt than the Wheel allows for, not more. We are given no reason to suspect or believe that Shai'tan would give greater ability to progress to his followers, or anyone, as it goes compleely against what we have been told of his nature, both by characters in the books and RJ himself.