WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, DreadLord31 said:

I mean, seriously think about that as an adaptation choice … Liandrin has more backstory & probably equal screen-time through the first two seasons with Mat, Perrin, and Rand. And has definitely outshined all three in acting out what she has been given. Even if Liandrin is replacing Alviarian … think about that. Seriously. If you are a lover of the books & unquestioning defender of the show. Think about that. 

There’s something to be said for not knowing what to expect. The show keeps me guessing. I like that. 

[DreadLord31]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

There’s something to be said for not knowing what to expect. The show keeps me guessing. I like that. 

I don’t disagree. I enjoy it a lot more if I can (as Daniel G has said) “Flip the old rusty, hard to move, book switch off in my brain”. But I was more saying that in defense of the post right above it - that clearly the writers do think they can improve on RJ and BS & in certain ways don’t want to be tethered to their writing (and when they’re not - they actually do write pretty well) … but that makes me sad… 

[king of nowhere]

14 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

You know, actually my problem with the writing is that it’s so inconsistent in its quality … 

 

yes, it is.

but better a show of inconsistent quality than a consistently bad show.

 

though i suppose if it was consistently bad we would all hate it and would not need to have discussions here...

[Elder_Haman]

5 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I don’t disagree. I enjoy it a lot more if I can (as Daniel G has said) “Flip the old rusty, hard to move, book switch off in my brain”. But I was more saying that in defense of the post right above it - that clearly the writers do think they can improve on RJ and BS & in certain ways don’t want to be tethered to their writing (and when they’re not - they actually do write pretty well) … but that makes me sad… 

I don’t think the thought process is “we can improve the source material” as much as “we can do this thing which will make for good tv and help flesh out this character.” 

[DreadLord31]

1 minute ago, king of nowhere said:

yes, it is.

but better a show of inconsistent quality than a consistently bad show.

 

though i suppose if it was consistently bad we would all hate it and would not need to have discussions here...

And you know, if I’m being super fair to Rafe … everybody I know that are fans of WoT have certain characters and arcs they like & certain characters and arcs they just want to “get through” to “get to the good stuff”. So obviously that would be true of writers & Rafe & Sarah N too. 
 

And if I were (with that in mind) guessing from the show at the characters/arcs that Rafe likes most I’d say it’s: Egwene, the WT politics/black Ajah hunt. Nynaeve & her power/block/and internal struggles. And Moiraine as a newer more interesting lesbian female Gandalf. And Lanfear/Ishy/the Forsaken’s motivations. 
 

I think he also really does love Mat, but Barney leaving really screwed up his plans. 
 

Perrin is hard to adapt. 
 

I just don’t think Rafe likes Rand…

But - to be honest, the first time I read the books I didn’t like Nynaeve. So - to each their own. 
 

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t think the thought process is “we can improve the source material” as much as “we can do this thing which will make for good tv and help flesh out this character.” 

 

Sure. But they still chose to flesh out Liandrin - over Mat and Perrin and Rand. To flesh out Anavere… 

And that’s my point. 

[DreadLord31]

I mean they fleshed out Alanna and her Warders whilst having Lan pee on a tree… 

 

Somebody wrote that scene & Rafe approved it. 

 

So anybody who argues they need more time - nah - they are literally pissing away time with central characters so they can develop tertiary or made up characters. 
 

So again - at least think about the fact - if you’ve read and loved the books for a long time - regardless of if you like the show (I mostly DID like S2 - I thought it was good Tv) - that they’ve chosen to develop Liandrin more than Rand, Perrin, or Mat - through their first two seasons. And then tell me what you think that means … 

[Mirefox]

The title sequence appeared again in this episode.  I think it is technically done well but what is the point of it?  What do you suppose someone who knows nothing about WoT would think the story is about if they only saw the title sequence?

[Irvyne]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

The title sequence appeared again in this episode.  I think it is technically done well but what is the point of it?  What do you suppose someone who knows nothing about WoT would think the story is about if they only saw the title sequence?

I decided about halfway through Season 1 that I really don't like the title sequence. I was glad to see it (almost) gone from Season 2.

 

While I think the "weaving" motif is cool, I don't like the music, and I don't like that it only focuses on showing Aes Sedai, as if to say, these are the main characters in this story. It's only a story about all the different Ajahs of the White Tower.

 

The gold standard for title sequences has got to be Game of Thrones. Brilliant, iconic earworm theme song, and a chance to show different locations of the world and how they all connect to each other.

 

I can remember years ago, imagining Wheel of Time as a TV show, I would use the opening theme to Chrono Cross to picture what I thought it might look like. During the opening moments, there would obviously be narration: "The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, etc. etc." Then when the rhythm kicks in, there would be sweeping shots of all the major locations. The Two Rivers. Dragonmount. The Aiel Waste. The Mountains of Mist. It would immerse the viewer in the world itself, then would zoom in towards wherever the story is starting, and the episode would begin from there.

[Mirefox]

10 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

There’s something to be said for not knowing what to expect. The show keeps me guessing. I like that. 

That’s what made Game of Thrones Season 8 so much better than Game of Thrones Season 1….

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

That’s what made Game of Thrones Season 8 so much better than Game of Thrones Season 1….

 

The main reason GoT became such a phenomenon was because non readers never knew what to expect, and readers loved watching them react to the shocks (Ned, Red Wedding, Mountain duel). 

 

WoT could never have that. There aren't really any "shocks" in the whole series. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

That’s what made Game of Thrones Season 8 so much better than Game of Thrones Season 1….

Fortunately, unlike D&D, Rafe has a finished product to adapt so he doesn't have to try to come up with an ending to a massive saga all by himself. 

 

I think the thing that really gets my dander up about the book purists is they act like I need their permission to enjoy the show. 

[Mirefox]

17 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Fortunately, unlike D&D, Rafe has a finished product to adapt so he doesn't have to try to come up with an ending to a massive saga all by himself. 

 

I think the thing that really gets my dander up about the book purists is they act like I need their permission to enjoy the show. 

Who ever said you need our permission to enjoy it?  We all have our guilty pleasures.  Some of us demand better than D-List crew creating a D-Level product.  If you said “yeah, it’s not great but I enjoy it anyways,” not a single person would object to that.

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 Some of us demand better than D-List crew creating a D-Level product.

This attitude. This show is miles ahead of any other fantasy property on TV. But y’all book purists try to act like it’s the same as wanting to watch Real Housewives or something. 

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This attitude. This show is miles ahead of any other fantasy property on TV. But y’all book purists try to act like it’s the same as wanting to watch Real Housewives or something. 

Nobody in the world cares about whether you enjoy the show or not.  It’s your vehement defense of objective mediocrity that causes half of the arguments on this board.  Is this in the best fantasy available right now that’s because Rings of Power managed to be even worse and that’s about it for the high fantasy competition.  Winning a 2-man race only proves you’re not as bad as the one other guy.

[Elder_Haman]

15 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

It’s your vehement defense of objective mediocrity that causes half of the arguments on this board.

Oh please. I’m sure it’s me saying, “actually this wasn’t that bad” that starts the arguments as opposed to:

 

OMIGOSH RAFE IS A MISANDRIST WHO HATES ROBERT JORDAN AND SPITS ON HIS LEGACY! THIS SHOW IS HOT GARBAGE! 
 

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[Elder_Haman]

15 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

objective mediocrity

You are not the sole arbiter of what is good, bad, or mediocre. Art is subjective.

[fra85uk]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

Fortunately, unlike D&D, Rafe has a finished product to adapt so he doesn't have to try to come up with an ending to a massive saga all by himself. 

 

I think the thing that really gets my dander up about the book purists is they act like I need their permission to enjoy the show. 

 

If you like something, of course you don't need approval from anyone else.

By the way, Mirefox is not wrong either...let us say that sometimes  your justifications of some of the weaker points of the show are quite far-fetched...if next season, Rafe comes up with (i am just kidding Rafe, do not take notes) Callandor being a LightSaber, I can come to this forum or WoTShow and find thousands of justifications for that 🤣

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, fra85uk said:

let us say that sometimes  your justifications of some of the weaker points of the show are quite far-fetched

I get that people don't care for my explanation of Egwene and the collar. (Which I have repeatedly conceded could have been handled better). Is there another example of one of my far-fetched justifications? 

[fra85uk]

38 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I get that people don't care for my explanation of Egwene and the collar. (Which I have repeatedly conceded could have been handled better). Is there another example of one of my far-fetched justifications? 

They have been argued so many times: I respect you and don't want to start other arguments.

Let us just state what we agree on at this point: S2 better than S1 as a TVshow: no doubt about it

 

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

They have been argued so many times: I respect you and don't want to start other arguments.

Let us just state what we agree on at this point: S2 better than S1 as a TVshow: no doubt about it.

Agreed. 

[DreadLord31]

I’m not a “book purist”. And I don’t agree with the Tv haters. S2 was better than S1. And both seasons had many moments that showed a lot of promise. 
 

I watch quite a bit of Tv, and there’s not a lot of stuff out there attempting what WoTTv is and excelling. For example: I watched S1 & S2 of the Witcher - season 3, didn’t finish it - didn’t think it was very good. I watched S1 of Shadow & Bone. Didn’t finish S2 - not that good. 
Rings of Power - watched them all, won’t watch S2 - it was that bad. 

Now - One Piece - is actually pretty good. But other than that, S2 of WoT was as good or better than any fantasy shows currently out there. 
 

Even so - I think that: A) the acting is great; B) the costuming/sets are very good; C) the CGI is much improved; and D) the writing is inconsistent - sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s ok, sometimes it’s terrible. 

[DreadLord31]

Let me give some examples: 

 

Great writing = TvThom “They call us gleeman because it’s a silly name that makes us less scary. There’s nothing more dangerous than a man who knows the past.” 🔥

 

Or Lanfear: “He thinks I’ll betray you.” 
Ishy: “Will you?” 
Lanfear: “Of course.” 🔥

Pretty much all the stuff with Lanfear/Ishy/Liandrin has been very good. 

 

Ok writing: 

Anavere “You got none of his goodness. You’re all mom.” 
Moiraine: Tear runs down her cheek. 
The whole Moiraine family story-line. 
Verin and the scooby-doo browns. 
 

Bad writing: 

Lan pees on a tree. 
Lots of “fake out deaths”. 
Siuan shows up briefly & acts completely out of character for - drama? 
SL dagger does whatever you need it to - melt locks - open the horn - instant kill - or not instant kill. 
Breaking your own show lore. 
Random archer from cliff fires one arrow. Lan catches it. Archer fires no more arrows? 
Ishy stands and does nothing while Rand gets healed. He then just lets Rand stab him with a flame sword (that has a heron & then the sword breaks). Heron marks mean what exactly to non-readers? 
Not completing story arcs & not setting up pay-offs & somehow dropping characters. Like - what happened to Min? Where’d Loial go? 
Pretty much all of Perrin’s lines. 
 

[notpropaganda73]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:31 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I don’t think the thought process is “we can improve the source material” as much as “we can do this thing which will make for good tv and help flesh out this character.” 

 

I think most of the arguments about the show come from this to be honest. The motivation behind changes for the show will generally dictate whether you hate it (and Rafe) or whether you're just critical of it. Some people seem to insist that Rafe and the other writers are arrogant and the only thing they like about WoT is the world RJ created, but they can improve everything else. Whereas the reality (to my mind), is that they are screenwriters. They are trying to tell the story as best they can via the TV medium. 

 

Screenwriting and novel writing are so far apart from one another in terms of the skills it takes for both. 

 

THIS IS NOT A DEFENCE OF ALL WRITING OF THE SHOW before someone comes for me on that

 

[notpropaganda73]

Also can I just push back on the idea that "if they had just listened to Brandon everything would be better". Brandon suggested that for the end of S1, Lan would abandon Moiraine and go save Nynaeve. His description of it sounded incredibly cheesy to me. Nevermind the idea that Lan would abandon his duty. 

 

The S1 finale was a mess obviously but I'd have hated a scene like that, which came direct from Brandon. 

[Windigo]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:46 PM, DreadLord31 said:

I mean they fleshed out Alanna and her Warders whilst having Lan pee on a tree… 

 

Somebody wrote that scene & Rafe approved it. 

 

So anybody who argues they need more time - nah - they are literally pissing away time with central characters so they can develop tertiary or made up characters. 
 

What is a very quick way to show that they are so concerned they are watching Lan every moment so that he does not do what Steppin did?  
 

23 hours ago, Ralph said:

 

The main reason GoT became such a phenomenon was because non readers never knew what to expect, and readers loved watching them react to the shocks (Ned, Red Wedding, Mountain duel). 

 

WoT could never have that. There aren't really any "shocks" in the whole series. 

GoT relied on familiarity historic royalty castles and intrigue, utilized the grimdark from the novels for familiar horror movie shock and awe.  
 

21 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Who ever said you need our permission to enjoy it?  We all have our guilty pleasures.  Some of us demand better than D-List crew creating a D-Level product.  If you said “yeah, it’s not great but I enjoy it anyways,” not a single person would object to that.

I have not seen one D-list actor yet.  Just because they are not known US actors does not mean they are D-list. 

 

9 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

Let me give some examples: 

 

Great writing = TvThom “They call us gleeman because it’s a silly name that makes us less scary. There’s nothing more dangerous than a man who knows the past.” 🔥

 

Or Lanfear: “He thinks I’ll betray you.” 
Ishy: “Will you?” 
Lanfear: “Of course.” 🔥

Pretty much all the stuff with Lanfear/Ishy/Liandrin has been very good. 

 

Ok writing: 

Anavere “You got none of his goodness. You’re all mom.” 
Moiraine: Tear runs down her cheek. 
The whole Moiraine family story-line. 
Verin and the scooby-doo browns. 
 

Bad writing: 

Lan pees on a tree. 
Lots of “fake out deaths”. 
Siuan shows up briefly & acts completely out of character for - drama? 
SL dagger does whatever you need it to - melt locks - open the horn - instant kill - or not instant kill. 
Breaking your own show lore. 
Random archer from cliff fires one arrow. Lan catches it. Archer fires no more arrows? 
Ishy stands and does nothing while Rand gets healed. He then just lets Rand stab him with a flame sword (that has a heron & then the sword breaks). Heron marks mean what exactly to non-readers? 
Not completing story arcs & not setting up pay-offs & somehow dropping characters. Like - what happened to Min? Where’d Loial go? 
Pretty much all of Perrin’s lines. 
 

I agree with some of this, but not all. 

I found The whole Moiraine family story-line to be great writing, for me the writers did a great job at showing the awkwardness of seeing estranged family again and how siblings know how to hurt each other the most. 
 

Quote

Lan pees on a tree. 

Or what is the fastest way we can show they are never leaving him alone, and are worried. 
 

Quote

Siuan shows up briefly & acts completely out of character .. 

I think she was completely in character, 
She is doubting Moiraine since did not tell her everything, the threat to Lan, her supposed failure with Rand, how Moiraine did not trust her with something like the "stilling".  
She is hurt personally by the lack of communication, and possible doubts she is having.  I saw her running off after Leane gave her the news as acting more like a betrayed lover, and she is still the Amyrlin Seat with years of getting what she wants. 
 

Quote

Ishy stands and does nothing while Rand gets healed. He then just lets Rand stab him with a flame sword (that has a heron & then the sword breaks).

I have lot's of theories and speculation on this. 
Ishy pretty much was ready to just end things and wait another turning because his plans were falling apart, so it was not all that surprising.  But this one I doo agree could have been done much better, unless it was all part of one of the Father of lies schemes. 
 

Quote

Heron marks mean what exactly to non-readers? 

I have watch some of the show-only watches and reviews, many picked up on this. Others are wondering and trying to guess what it means.