WoT Season 2 Episode 7: Daes Dae'Mar

[Scarloc99]

11 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Is this not what Lanfear claimed, that Moiraine had set Logain up so Rand could reach him in her home city. But Moiraine (who cannot lie) said that she had moved Logain to keep him away from Rand who she thought would be at the Tower. 

 

Or am I misremembering? Or do people just want to believe Lanfear for some reason, as if her smoldering sexual energy is actually a sign of sincerity?

Rand asked Moiraine if she sent Logain to Cairhien because He was there, or he might have suggested she suggested Rand go thee because Logain was there, any basically Moiraine said that she ensured that Logain would not be in the white tower so Rand could easily gain access to and learn from him. 

[Scarloc99]

11 minutes ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

Too early to jump to conclusions on this. Mat's flicker flicker moment in the books was very similar as he came out of it pleading with Rand to believe him that he wouldn't betray him.

And how many times does it have to be said...stop superimposing book 3 and beyond Mat with book 1&2 Mat. Mat was easily the least likable of the main characters in the first 2 books and kind of a dick to boot.

 

The finale and next season will be where we truly see where they're going with him, JUST LIKE THE BOOKS.

People really seem to forget that Matt in books 1 and 2, following on from RJ's "influence and homage to LOTR" was basically his Gollum character, I do wonder if somewhere in the ether there is a version of the story where Matt becomes Mordeth who then has to work with Rand to defeat the dark lord because Rand needs his "opposite evil", in that version it would be great if the at the last battle they kill the dark lord, only for Rand to relaise he now has an empty prison he has to put his best friend in to keep the world safe and he will one day become the new dark lord in the next turning. I felt that while writing the end of book 2 RJ was figuring out who Matt would become. 

 

[ilovezam]

17 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I am feeling very uncertain now, did any of this actually happen? Have I been drinking too much of the apple brandy while watching?

I found the exact exchange from Episode 6:

 

Rand:

"You moved him to Cairhien, didn't you? So that I'd come here."

Moiraine:
"Yes, of course. Away from the White Tower, where you'd never be able to see him, where he'd never be able teach you."

After the Eye of the World, Rand made Moiraine promise him to "tell them I died", and then he just left on his own in the Season 1 finale.

Rand being at Tar Valon is definitely the last thing Moiraine wanted, and she was willing to FUBAR her relationship with Siuan to make sure that didn't happen.

Edited October 1, 2023 by ilovezam

[Finnssss22]

10 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Matt and Ishmael. This incarnation of matt is so so so much better then Book matt at this point in the books (basically RJ's version of Gollum with the dagger being the ring), I am open to the tea being the gateway to his other lives. 
 

 

Bingo! I wish more people would stop projecting pre-cleansing Mat with post-cleansing Mat, it's getting annoying lol

That said, I'm not convinced the tea wasn't just another Ishy trick, we shall see.

[Finnssss22]

20 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Rand being in the Tar Valon is definitely the last thing Moiraine wanted, and she was willing to FUBAR her relationship with Siuan to make sure that didn't happen.

 

I don't think this was actually the case. As I mentioned above, I doubt Moiraine could have gotten Logain moved without Suian's approval.

This jives with Mo and Suian's "deal" as Suian's job was to prepare the Tower for the Dragon and Moiraine's was to guide and teach him.

That's why Suian was so pissed that Mo never told her she was "stilled" as that meant Moiraine would have no way of being able to stop Rand if something happened. This along with other Sisters now knowing about Rand it puts Suian in a very dangerous position of being called down for not following Tower Law and possibly losing the Amyrlin Seat.

And as we all know, this is probably exactly what is going to happen next season when this lady shows up...

Edited October 1, 2023 by Finnssss22

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

20 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

Yes, of course. Away from the White Tower, where you'd never be able to see him, where he'd never be able teach you

Is it just me or is this totally confusing? Just me, yes probably, but no I did not misremember. I understood this as "Away from [you and] the White Tower, [to] where you'd never be able to see him, where he'd never be able teach you". That is probably because I was expecting her to deny it, but still, it seems unnecessarily ambiguous as I'm sure you guys' interpretation is the right one.

[Finnssss22]

36 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I felt that while writing the end of book 2 RJ was figuring out who Matt would become. 

 

A younger version of this guy...

Edited October 1, 2023 by Finnssss22

[Vartija]

I mostly struggle with the "inherent darkness"-angle of Mat's arc. It's true that he was mostly a passanger in the series before his healing but I wouldn't have changed his background quite that radically. 

 

I was hoping they'd use his escape from the Tower similarily as they did in the third book as a new beginning but they've continued with the darkness angle. I'm guessing he'll have his "I'd never betray you"-moment in next episode. I'm hoping they'll treat that as a clean slate moment so that we can move on to better things in his arc. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Vartija

[ilovezam]

37 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Is it just me or is this totally confusing? Just me, yes probably, but no I did not misremember. I understood this as "Away from [you and] the White Tower, [to] where you'd never be able to see him, where he'd never be able teach you". That is probably because I was expecting her to deny it, but still, it seems unnecessarily ambiguous as I'm sure you guys' interpretation is the right one.

Yeah, that line does seem like it could be possibly read that way linguistically.

But we do know that Moiraine is desperate to keep Rand out of the Tower, at least at this point.

[DaddyFinn]

So any thoughts if this episode counts towards Min's vision of Moiraine in S1E7? "I see the Amyrlin in full regalia. She will be your downfall."

[DreadLord31]

1 hour ago, Finnssss22 said:

Bingo! I wish more people would stop projecting pre-cleansing Mat with post-cleansing Mat, it's getting annoying lol

It’s an easy thing to do because of the length of the series. I remember on my first re-read being SHockEd how obnoxious and stupid Matt was in the first two books. Because I didn’t remember him that way. I’d had 1000’s of pages of Han-Solo Matt and preferred to remember him that way. Discovering that at the beginning he is trickster, buffoon Matt. That was rough. 

[DreadLord31]

Alright I want to make some predictions about the finale (and I’m really hoping it’s not the major let down that last seasons finale was - because I went into that one super hopeful!) 

 

So here we go: 

Spoiler

#1) Cold-Open will be flashback to Lews, Ishy, and Lanfear as best friends 

 

#2) Egwene is going to say something like this to Senna, “It must be hard thinking your whole life you are a person, when you are a damane.” 
 

#3) Rand and Ishy are going to fight at the top of that big tower. I think Rands heron marked sword will be on fire and his hands will get Branded. 
 

#4) I think Fain stabs Rand with the dagger, and Matt is right there to “rescue” Rand somehow with a line like “You got to hold on. We need you, I’m not better off without you, I die without you, I’ve seen it.” 
 

#5) We’ll get the Ingtar reveal - which will be disappointing cause it’ll need to be a 2 min arc. 
 

#6) Perrin will hide behind Avi doing nothing as she kicks butt. 
 

#7) Matt will blow the horn

#8) Lan will do something - with his sword - and not die - for once. 
 

#9) Moiraine will heal Rands wound from Fain 

#10) + or - guaranteed that Nynaeve will power-explode to save the day! 

 

[king of nowhere]

A point nobody else made, but after thinking a bit, i'm glad rand and moiraine went with lanfear.

the reason is that i'm quite tired of media promoting stupid defiance for its own sake against insurmontable odds.

in pretty much any kind of story, the hero never gives up, never surrender, even when it would make totally perfect sense to do it and come back later in the future. and the story generally shield them from the consequences of that.

geralt is clearly outmatched by vilgefortz. he puts up a good fight, eventually he gets wounded and his sword shattered. that's it, if he was clearly outmatched when they were both fresh, now that he's got no weapon and wounds he certainly can't do anything. the villain could be willing to let him go, but no, he forces a confrontation to the end. just to show that the hero will not give up.

zoro clearly has no hopes against mihawk, but he still forces a confrontation, and keeps on forcing the confrontation up to the point of asking to be killed.

luke knows he's falling for a trap, yoda tells him he's not ready, yet luke still goes to fight darth vader.

in all those cases, the heroes could have retreated and waited for a better opportunity. nope, we have to promote stupid determination over common sense. determination is good, but not when it pushes you to do something clearly dumb and likely to get you killed for no reason. this kind of behavior does get people killed in real life.

 

so, in the face of all that, moiraine and rand being like "we have no hopes against lanfear, but she seems like she does not want to kill us right now, so let's play along and wait for a better opportunity" is a wonderful counterpoint.

[DreadLord31]

Oh. I just had a season finale cold open idea sooo good… if there are an Amazon ppl on here that lurk, bring this to Rafe as evidence I could be useful! 😉 

 

Ok. Opening scene of Finale. 
Lews and Ishy are playing a board game, Go maybe or a Chess-like game, Ishy makes a move & smirks. He says, “I win again Lews Therin.” 

Lews laughs. 
Lanfear is standing behind Lews scowling. Then you hard- cut to Lanfear taking them through the ways. 
 

Come on. That’s gold! Riiight??? 

Edited October 1, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Finnssss22]

14 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Oh. I just had a season finale cold open idea sooo good… if there are an Amazon ppl on here that lurk, bring this to Rafe as evidence I could be useful! 😉 

 

Ok. Opening scene of Finale. 
Lews and Ishy are playing a board game, Go maybe or a Chess-like game, Ishy makes a move & smirks. He says, “I win again Lews Therin.” 

Lews laughs. 
Lanfear is standing behind Lews scowling. Then you hard- cut to Lanfear taking them through the ways. 
 

Come on. That’s gold! Riiight??? 

 

My cold open guess involves a little cheating from casting leaks. I'll put a spoiler tag in so don't click if you don't want to know.

 

Spoiler

It's probably a long shot but it's based on the premise that Rand and Turok will have their sword fight.

The cold open will indeed be LTT (already confirmed by leaks that he appears in e8) but it will him and Sammael (There's one actor left whose role has not been revealed yet who is the perfect Sammy) sword fighting where Sammy gets his scar.

There is then some LTT/Rand memory spillover that allows Rand to beat Turok.

 

[Elder_Haman]

3 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

But Moiraine (who cannot lie) said that she had moved Logain to keep him away from Rand who she thought would be at the Tower. 

No. She said she moved Logain to keep him away from other Aes Sedai who would study him like an animal. 

[Finnssss22]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

No. She said she moved Logain to keep him away from other Aes Sedai who would study him like an animal. 

"And away from where he would never be able to teach you."

Edited October 1, 2023 by Finnssss22

[EmreY]

5 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

 

 

Saffron Ajah confirmed! 😄

 

On another note, I rewatched this episode and liked it better.  Still not the best.  But I also noticed something else.  Did anyone else notice Rand's voice when he said 'I won't live in your cage'?  The first time, I thought it was just Power-enhanced.  This time... I thought there was something else there.  What do you think?

 

[Skipp]

6 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Because that is where she was taking them before the Eye of the World debacle. Was the plan not to stay there initially? 

 

 

 

Both in the show and the books the plan was to take Rand to the Tower.  Both were detoured to the Eye for differing reasons.  After that Moiraine did not want Rand in the tower in both the show and books.

[DaddyFinn]

On 9/29/2023 at 3:57 PM, king of nowhere said:

first, the blood snow. the batle was in winter. shaiel if fighting in the snow. but there's no snow in tar valon, not anywhere that we can see. in fact, the vibrant greens we see in the fields in the distance imply late spring. the season does not fit. the juxtaposition between the scenes of the fight and the foretelling, with gitara saying it is happening now, only highlights it.

Okay had to correct this one. One keen eyed reader noticed that in S1E7 there's snow only in the mountain. Explains why Tam told in his fever dreams he "had to get out of the heat of battle". Kudos to show once again

 

[Chivalry]

12 hours ago, Guire said:

and a warder is dating the boss irl.

Wow, didn't know that. Too bad the actor wasn't cast as Ingtar. 😂

[Chivalry]

I haven't seen any other comments on this, but I wasn't sure how to feel about Lan's dialogue with Rand before he was presented to the Amyrlin. While the scene was based on a similar moment in TGH, it did not feel earned.

 

Amazon Show Lan has very little connection with Amazon Rand. Amazon Lan did not train Rand with the sword (he even seemed surprised/amused when Rand defensively reacted with one of the sword forms), and he hasn't really expressed much concern for anyone other than Moiraine or Nynaeve.  In the context of the show, this scene felt like cheap fan service.

 

Will we get the wonderful Ingtar speech from TGH in Episode 8? Again, if we do, it will not feel earned. Ingtar has barely spoken this season. We don't know this Ingtar.

 

I do think the writing in general has improved from Season 1, but there are these truly annoying moments that are hard to overlook, and Episode 7 felt like the weakest episode this season.

[Scarloc99]

9 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I haven't seen any other comments on this, but I wasn't sure how to feel about Lan's dialogue with Rand before he was presented to the Amyrlin. While the scene was based on a similar moment in TGH, it did not feel earned.

 

Amazon Show Lan has very little connection with Amazon Rand. Amazon Lan did not train Rand with the sword (he even seemed surprised/amused when Rand defensively reacted with one of the sword forms), and he hasn't really expressed much concern for anyone other than Moiraine or Nynaeve.  In the context of the show, this scene felt like cheap fan service.

 

Will we get the wonderful Ingtar speech from TGH in Episode 8? Again, if we do, it will not feel earned. Ingtar has barely spoken this season. We don't know this Ingtar.

 

I do think the writing in general has improved from Season 1, but there are these truly annoying moments that are hard to overlook, and Episode 7 felt like the weakest episode this season.

I agree with you and I think it shows the issue with 8 episode seasons and just how much story needs to be compacted into them. 

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Okay had to correct this one. One keen eyed reader noticed that in S1E7 there's snow only in the mountain. Explains why Tam told in his fever dreams he "had to get out of the heat of battle". Kudos to show once again

 

nicely spotted. i also never noticed the white tower in the distance.

it still does feel wrong to have the snow here and green meadows in what can't possibly be much lower elevaton.

but more important, i wonder how many of those details a casual viewer may actually catch

[DigificWriter]

41 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

it still does feel wrong to have the snow here and green meadows in what can't possibly be much lower elevaton.

 

That's how mountainous environments work. Snow can linger in some spots and yet be completely melted in other spots.