New user, came to vent.

[Mailman]

22 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Somebody above was once again complaining about Egwene healing Nynaeve in The Eye of the World (my favorite episode of Season 1), and, after just finishing a rewatch of that episode, all I have to say is this: people really do need to chill out when it comes to the 'correctness' or 'incorrectness' of how the show uses the One Power, because in the end, the point of that scene is to show off Egwene's strength in the Power and deepen her relationship with Nynaeve. Being hyperfocused on whether or not Nynaeve was dead and taking the stance that the One Power couldn't have brought her back to life if she was is completely missing the point.

 

People don't have to like that scene, but there's a difference between disliking something and lodging pedantic objections against said thing simply for the sake of having something to comment on.

 

The same also applies to Egwene saving herself from Renna; pedantic objections to that plot point based on whether or not the A'dam should've worked the way in which it's used in the scenes in question are entirely missing the point.

I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous.

 

It's not like it's a little thing bringing someone back from the dead (which to many people is what appeared to happen). It is a world altering far reaching ability especially being wielded by an absolute rank amateur. If this ability is cannon then the stakes of the world are massively affected.

 

Damaging the world building to achieve a feeling is piss poor writing and production. In no way is questioning the ability of the power and the wielder to achieve a healing from death over focussing or missing the point.

 

How any episode with the absolute abomination of CGI and battle scenes that episode 8 had could be considered the best episode is beyond me.

[Elder_Haman]

54 minutes ago, Mailman said:

How any episode with the absolute abomination of CGI and battle scenes that episode 8 had could be considered the best episode is beyond me.

I just prefer to pretend S1E8 didn't happen. It's a mess in so many ways (many of which were beyond the control of the showrunners). I really wonder what it would have looked like without COVID. But other than Rand and Ishy's scene at the Eye (which was very good), that whole episode was just a mess.

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

If this ability is cannon then the stakes of the world are massively affected.

 

 

How?

 

It's a one-off OTT use of the One Power that is fueled entirely by emotion and isn't a conscious choice any more than Nynaeve's two 'Power explosions' were. There is also an argument to be made that Egwene was possibly in possession of an Angreal at the time in the form of the jewel Moiraine gave her in the episode Shadow's Waiting.

 

I just rewatched a discussion of Season 1 from three of my favorite WoTTubers (KritterXD, Winespring Cafe, and Ta'varen Tavern) where the execution of Egwene's revivification of Nynaeve was discussed slightly negatively, and, had I been in their chat when they Livestreamed, I would've tried to make the argument that there is no difference, either mechanically or metaphysically, between Egwene - who had been established as an exceptionally powerful Channeler - using the One Power to revive Nynaeve and the two times that Nynaeve herself - who had likewise been established as an incredibly powerful Channeler who was even stronger than Egwene - accomplished/performed entirely instinctual OTT feats/actions with the One Power.

 

As for why The Eye of the World is my favorite episode of Season 1, it contains the strongest character development of the season for certain characters (Rand and Moiraine), is our first introduction to the phenomenal Fares Fares (Ishy), tees up future storylines in ways that I found extremely compelling when I first watched it and that I still find exciting upon rewatch, and contains my favorite Cold Open of the season (the Age of Legends convo between Lews and Latra).

 

I also choose not to be negative over or critical about things that were 'extracurricular' to the episode narratively.

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous.

 

It's not like it's a little thing bringing someone back from the dead (which to many people is what appeared to happen). It is a world altering far reaching ability especially being wielded by an absolute rank amateur. If this ability is cannon then the stakes of the world are massively affected.

so, if you are told that magic can heal people but not resurrect them, and you see someone badly burned on the ground, and magic brought her to her feet again, you have 2 options:

1) clearly, she wasn't dead yet. after all, unless major brain injury is involved, people take some time to die

2) omg she was resurrected even though it should not be possible! they completely broke their rules and ruined the worldbuilding forever.

 

I just wonder why anyone would ever pick 2) when 1) is available

 

Quote

Damaging the world building to achieve a feeling is piss poor writing and production.

 

full agreement on this one. however, one should not assume that the world building was damaged if there are other perfectly plausible alternatives

[DigificWriter]

Nothing about the world-building is 'damaged' even if Nynaeve was dead and Egwene used the One Power to revive her because such action was a one-off unconscious occurrence.

[Kaleb]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Nothing about the world-building is 'damaged' even if Nynaeve was dead and Egwene used the One Power to revive her because such action was a one-off unconscious occurrence.

I know your stance is that the show shouldn't feel obligated to do anything the way it is in the books. And I agree that as a non-reader, you as a viewer are in no way burdened by those expectations. However, on this particular point, there is a key scene early in The Shadow Rising that raises the issue of using the One Power to heal death, and suffice to say that it is impossible for very clear logical and emotional reasons, it's an absolute boundary for this magic system. If book readers start to see actual cases of resurrection with the One Power in the show, lots of them are going to have problems with it.

 

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

so, if you are told that magic can heal people but not resurrect them, and you see someone badly burned on the ground, and magic brought her to her feet again, you have 2 options:

1) clearly, she wasn't dead yet. after all, unless major brain injury is involved, people take some time to die

2) omg she was resurrected even though it should not be possible! they completely broke their rules and ruined the worldbuilding forever.

 

I just wonder why anyone would ever pick 2) when 1) is available

Exactly the point I would make in response to the complaint about Egwene in S1E8.

Edited December 21 by Kaleb

[DigificWriter]

38 minutes ago, Kaleb said:

If book readers start to see actual cases of resurrection with the One Power in the show, lots of them are going to have problems with it.

 

One anomalous case unconsciously fueled by emotion does not establish either a precedent or a rule.

 

Also, the only two people who would know, in-universe, whether or not Egwene revived Nynaeve from death would be Egwene and Nynaeve themselves, and I don't see much reason why they'd openly discuss the truth of what happened with anyone.

[Skipp]

8 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I just prefer to pretend S1E8 didn't happen. It's a mess in so many ways (many of which were beyond the control of the showrunners). I really wonder what it would have looked like without COVID. But other than Rand and Ishy's scene at the Eye (which was very good), that whole episode was just a mess.

Kinda how I view the episode.  I really love everything the Rand, Moiraine and "The Dark One", I think that was really well executed.

 

But the rest of the episode is so messed up due to other factors we really do not know what it should have looked like.  Losing Barney Harris alone forced big changes to his and Perrins(I think) finale arcs.  Losing the Trolloc stunt actors, the location for the blight, needing to suddenly budget for a CGI Battle that wasn't planned for at all. 

 

It is honestly wild that it turned out as functional as it did.

[Mailman]

6 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

so, if you are told that magic can heal people but not resurrect them, and you see someone badly burned on the ground, and magic brought her to her feet again, you have 2 options:

1) clearly, she wasn't dead yet. after all, unless major brain injury is involved, people take some time to die

2) omg she was resurrected even though it should not be possible! they completely broke their rules and ruined the worldbuilding forever.

 

I just wonder why anyone would ever pick 2) when 1) is available

 

 

full agreement on this one. however, one should not assume that the world building was damaged if there are other perfectly plausible alternatives

A significant portion of the audience believed that she was dead. If she was not then the creators have done a terrible job of classifying her condition. She very much looked dead to me and in any case the arguement being put forward by Digific was that it did not matter if she was dead or not.

[Mailman]

9 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

How?

 

It's a one-off OTT use of the One Power that is fueled entirely by emotion and isn't a conscious choice any more than Nynaeve's two 'Power explosions' were. There is also an argument to be made that Egwene was possibly in possession of an Angreal at the time in the form of the jewel Moiraine gave her in the episode Shadow's Waiting.

 

I just rewatched a discussion of Season 1 from three of my favorite WoTTubers (KritterXD, Winespring Cafe, and Ta'varen Tavern) where the execution of Egwene's revivification of Nynaeve was discussed slightly negatively, and, had I been in their chat when they Livestreamed, I would've tried to make the argument that there is no difference, either mechanically or metaphysically, between Egwene - who had been established as an exceptionally powerful Channeler - using the One Power to revive Nynaeve and the two times that Nynaeve herself - who had likewise been established as an incredibly powerful Channeler who was even stronger than Egwene - accomplished/performed entirely instinctual OTT feats/actions with the One Power.

 

As for why The Eye of the World is my favorite episode of Season 1, it contains the strongest character development of the season for certain characters (Rand and Moiraine), is our first introduction to the phenomenal Fares Fares (Ishy), tees up future storylines in ways that I found extremely compelling when I first watched it and that I still find exciting upon rewatch, and contains my favorite Cold Open of the season (the Age of Legends convo between Lews and Latra).

 

I also choose not to be negative over or critical about things that were 'extracurricular' to the episode narratively.

I have seen no mention that this was a one off use of the power, and again it is from someone that only first used the power a mere couple of weeks prior so why you would assume that she can never make use of this ability again is beyond me.

 

How? is such a silly question the ability to raise the dead is world bending. So when Egwene develops to her maximum potential and takes the whole tower under her very personnel protection and has access to Vora's sa'angreal she could potentially heal any dead Aes Sedai if she felt strongly enough about the dead.

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I just prefer to pretend S1E8 didn't happen. It's a mess in so many ways (many of which were beyond the control of the showrunners). I really wonder what it would have looked like without COVID. But other than Rand and Ishy's scene at the Eye (which was very good), that whole episode was just a mess.

Rand and Ishy was the only scene in that episode that was even remotely okay.

 

I mean this was the episode that gave us Nynaeve telling Lan about Moiraine having a tracking tell FFS.

[king of nowhere]

6 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Nothing about the world-building is 'damaged' even if Nynaeve was dead and Egwene used the One Power to revive her because such action was a one-off unconscious occurrence.

no, that's completely wrong.

channeling works with some science and reproducibility. what one channeler can weave, others can copy. talents can influence how powerful is the result, but every weaving is reproducible- there isn't a single example contradicting this in 14 books. there is no such thing as a one-off.

therefore, if nynaeve was dead, it means resurrecting the dead is possible, and others can figure it out as well.

 

although, to be fair, it seems that channeling is not so well understood that one can predict much of what is possible. it's not like physics "time travel is impossible, here's the math that proves it". it's clear that with channeling, "it's impossible" simply means "people have tried and failed long enough that everyone gave up".

so, if somebody discovered resurrection (possibly using a true power weave, as the DO is known to be able to resurrect, or more accurately reincarnate), it would not directly contradict the worldbuilding.

but having resurrection in a story creates a huge set of problems that one has to account for. and robert jordan explicitly said it's impossible anyway.

[DigificWriter]

4 hours ago, Mailman said:

I have seen no mention that this was a one off use of the power, and again it is from someone that only first used the power a mere couple of weeks prior so why you would assume that she can never make use of this ability again is beyond me.

 

How? is such a silly question the ability to raise the dead is world bending. So when Egwene develops to her maximum potential and takes the whole tower under her very personnel protection and has access to Vora's sa'angreal she could potentially heal any dead Aes Sedai if she felt strongly enough about the dead.

 

Unless Egwene ends up being faced with another situation where she revives someone using the One Power, what happened at Tarwin's Gap remains what it came across as, which was a one-time unconscious emotion-fueled OTT 'power explosion' that revived someone she cared about.

 

Also, the fact that she was untrained actually reinforces the idea that what she did at the Gap was just a one-off OTT feat that she did entirely unconsciously.

Edited Sunday at 06:32 AM by DigificWriter

[Mailman]

5 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Unless Egwene ends up being faced with another situation where she revives someone using the One Power, what happened at Tarwin's Gap remains what it came across as, which was a one-time unconscious emotion-fueled OTT 'power explosion' that revived someone she cared about.

 

Also, the fact that she was untrained actually reinforces the idea that what she did at the Gap was just a one-off OTT feat that she did entirely unconsciously.

Where in the 16 episodes has it been said that she is unable to reproduce this healing?

 

It is ludicrous to say simply if she never uses that power again you never have to explain it, surely someone like Egwene would be keen herself to learn and replicate this ability to help others in the future. Why would she not seek to harness it again?

 

No the fact that she is a complete newbie to the power does not reinforce this amazing healing it completely undercuts it.

 

[DigificWriter]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

It is ludicrous to say simply if she never uses that power again you never have to explain it

 

You might find the notion ludicrous, but that's often how storytelling works, especially in Sci-Fi and Fantasy stories. Inexplicable/unexplained things will happen, and then they're intentionally never followed up on.

[Mailman]

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

You might find the notion ludicrous, but that's often how storytelling works, especially in Sci-Fi and Fantasy stories. Inexplicable/unexplained things will happen, and then they're intentionally never followed up on.

Oh come on! Not even you can seriously believe that to be actually the case in competently written content.

 

So you are really telling me that Egwene a woman on the path to becoming a healer and fiercely caring of those around her would not seek to replicate this life returning/saving ability.

[A Memory Of Why]

On 12/22/2024 at 2:38 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I just prefer to pretend S1E8 didn't happen. It's a mess in so many ways (many of which were beyond the control of the showrunners). I really wonder what it would have looked like without COVID. But other than Rand and Ishy's scene at the Eye (which was very good), that whole episode was just a mess.

 

Yeah, I quite liked Ishy and Rands interactions. Got a solid gaphaw out of me when he takes off his Balsy face with a "Now we can have a proper conversation".

 

It was a fun callback to the books, though I do kinda miss the comically evil Balsy who thinks calling someone a fool and a worm is the gravest of insults.

 

Fun fact, did you notice whenever a darkfriend meets a Forsaken they fall over themselves to reassure them they are indeed a fool and a worm?

[A Memory Of Why]

On 12/21/2024 at 3:46 PM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

My point is that letting Nyn read it when Elayne is right there is not a relevant point as Elayne had no particular ability in the books to know what a ter'Angreal does - only an interest (and perhaps a talent) in learning how to make ter'anreal - it was Aviendha who found she had the talent to know what an existing ter'angreal does (and much later).  

 

Nyn got the sense of suffering when touching the male adam,  in general if a male who can channel touches an active adam he and those wearing it suffer great pain, if the bracelet is put on a male who can channel while a woman who can channel is wearing the collar then both die from it.   The male adam was designed to allow one or two females who can channel to control a male who can channel, there is no general adverse effect from females touching it, only Nyn got the impression of suffering.  

 

Correct, Elaynes talent is creating Ter'angreal, which we know is a talent from the Seanchan. She is also adept at studying and replicating them.

 

Hmmmm, regarding Nyn and the male adam.. I think that's the only pov of a female channeler touching it so we're both speculating here. Think what you want, though I'm still going with it being similar to the Female adam in that respect 😎

 

Anywho, my point was that Elayne has a think for Ter'angreal and Nyn for healing and it felt like they switched it up is all.

[DojoToad]

On 12/21/2024 at 12:00 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

How?

 

It's a one-off OTT use of the One Power that is fueled entirely by emotion and isn't a conscious choice any more than Nynaeve's two 'Power explosions' were. There is also an argument to be made that Egwene was possibly in possession of an Angreal at the time in the form of the jewel Moiraine gave her in the episode Shadow's Waiting.

How is it one-off when you mention Egwene's (1) and Nynaeve's (2) in the same sentence?  That is at least three OTT uses of the power in one season by untrained (or little trained) channelers.

 

Maybe that is the point - Aes Sedai have lost/forgotten so much since the AOL.  That was a theme in the book series, but it came much later than how it was introduced in the show.  Still poorly done imo, but maybe that's the direction they're going.

Edited Monday at 11:02 AM by DojoToad

[DigificWriter]

Egwene specifically using the One Power to revive Nynaeve is a one-off thing until/unless she's able to consciously replicate whatever she did and revive someone else, at which point it becomes something to possibly explain and explore (although I expect that Race and his writers will 'default' to whatever Egwene actually did being generally dismissed as impossible, which is perfectly fine).

 

Nynaeve's two 'power explosions' established that it is possible for the One Power to be unconsciously used in OTT ways, but the circumstances under which the three examples of 'power explosions' that we've seen have all been different and, thus far, have not been shown to be replicable insofar as intention and control is concerned.

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Egwene specifically using the One Power to revive Nynaeve is a one-off thing until/unless she's able to consciously replicate whatever she did and revive someone else, at which point it becomes something to possibly explain and explore (although I expect that Race and his writers will 'default' to whatever Egwene actually did being generally dismissed as impossible, which is perfectly fine).

 

Nynaeve's two 'power explosions' established that it is possible for the One Power to be unconsciously used in OTT ways, but the circumstances under which the three examples of 'power explosions' that we've seen have all been different and, thus far, have not been shown to be replicable insofar as intention and control is concerned.

Unbelievable, you are still trying to defend not having to explain resurrection. I suppose for you nobody is ever really gone for real.

 

So anytime someone close to Egwene gets killed she can just bring them back.

 

And you are just making up all these rules in regards to one off and uncontrolled/unconscious usage of the power. There has been nothing in show that backs up this.

Edited Tuesday at 01:07 AM by Mailman

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

18 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Egwene specifically using the One Power to revive Nynaeve is a one-off thing until/unless she's able to consciously replicate whatever she did

It appeared to me more like a (poorly depicted) version of what Asmodean did for Rand after he overstrained his channeling during the battle of Cairhien - pushing some raw Saidin (so in this case Saidar) back into the channeller to prevent burnout (in this case fatal burnout rather than losing the ability to channel).  So not an unprecedented action.

[Goathill]

Bringing someone back from the dead is an evil thing only capable by The Dark One, I always knew Egwene would go to the dark side. 🤣

Edited Wednesday at 09:00 AM by Goathill

[wotfan4472]

On 10/11/2023 at 3:45 AM, SinisterDeath said:

May I recommend watching 1998's Merlin?

 

Then remember that RJ wanted the people who made that show, to make a WoT Adaptation.

That is a good idea, actually. Having seen that film plenty of times, I feel the show is equivalent to that film.

 

That being said, I do have one issue with the film, in hat it had Merlin being Mab's son, when he is her grandson in myth. His parents are a human mother, and a certain Fairy King from Avalon, called Oberon.

 

However, this discrepancy I get, since it has been at least almost 2000 years, and that is not very well known about now. These days, Merlin is Satan's son instead. You could say it is legend fading to myth in real time.

[Andra]

On 12/24/2024 at 4:19 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

It appeared to me more like a (poorly depicted) version of what Asmodean did for Rand after he overstrained his channeling during the battle of Cairhien - pushing some raw Saidin (so in this case Saidar) back into the channeller to prevent burnout (in this case fatal burnout rather than losing the ability to channel).  So not an unprecedented action.

The problem with that solution is that the channelers involved have to be able to act independently.  In the scene, the fatal burnout happens while all of them are locked into a Circle, controlled by someone else.  BECAUSE they are locked into a Circle controlled by someone else.

Egwene couldn't prop up Nynaeve, because Egwene couldn't do anything the leader of the Circle didn't control.

Of course, it's explicitly stated in the books (by people who are very familiar with the mechanics of it) that a person in a Circle can't be made to draw more Power than they can handle. 

 

So the "problem" the solution solves ALREADY violates the rules of the magic system.

 

Virtually everything relating to the use of Saidar in that scene breaks world-building.